Talk:Orange (word)/Archive 2

Two Syllable Rhymes
Most of the rhymes for orange here are built on a two syllable pronounciation. They don't work for those who pronounce "orange" in one syllable /ornZ/, such as myself.
 * Sorry, buddy, but if you pronounce orange like that, you're wrong. :-) 128.109.2.110 (talk) 18:25, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, i pronounce it like that too as in, "ornge" Tyler John (talk) 02:27, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Orange Rhymes
"Two words are rhymes if they are stressed on the same syllable, counting from the end of the words, and are pronounced identically from the vowel in their stressed syllable to the end."

Isn't the stress in the word orange the first syllable? or is stressed, and the vowel in or is o, so that would mean most of those rhymes aren't valid. I do however agree that orange and door hinge seem to rhyme.


 * Except that for large parts of the English-speaking world, such as that which contains Oxford, the accent is non-rhotic and doesn't drop aitches. Consequently, the h in hinge is pronounced and the r in door hinge isn't.


 * Quorange is an actual rhyme with Orange. "is a word invented ad hoc whose ethereal nature requires that it expire within moments of use, lest it become a neologism, one stage of linguistic acceptance beyond." From the Webster Rosetta edition. And also 1980's, refers to a color made by mixing orange and green slime--was in Super Mario Brothers. So Grorange and Quorange make it no matter how you pronounce Orange. I believe Quorange from what I've read was invented in the 1400's. Just that both words are rare... but that doesn't make them invalid. There is also the french "l'orange" "d'orange" and "au orange" are we restricted to rhyming the word in English? In Japanese orange would be pronounced "Ore--n'ji" which rhymes with Kenji, a male name... not to mention other names. So it definitely rhymes. --Hitsuji Kinno (talk) 15:30, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Excised from Etymology
I have removed the following information from the section Etymology. Most of it is unreferenced; the references provided do not relate to etymology but are elaborations of other claims. The description of the Principality of Orange may belong in another section. Cnilep (talk) 17:23, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The French shift from arenge to orenge may have been influenced by the French word or (gold) &mdash; in reference to the colour of oranges &mdash; or by the name of Orange, France, a major distribution point of oranges to northern regions. The name of the village did not derive from the word: in Old Provençal, it was known as Aurenja, with the initial sound later shifting (McPhee, 1975) (the original Roman name of the village was Arausio and came from a Celtic water god). The village name and fruit name thus converged coincidentally, one becoming associated with the other (conflation).


 * Later, the sovereign Principality of Orange was the property of the House of Orange (later House of Orange-Nassau), which adopted both fruit and colour (already associated with the principality) as its symbols. Many things were in turn named after this royal House, which is the present ruling monarchy of the Netherlands. Because of this ruling dynasty, orange has in turn become the national colour of the Netherlands, and is the colour representing Protestants on the Irish flag.


 * In Dutch the fruit is known as Sinaasappel or Appelsien (both derived from "Chinese apples"), and words similar to Appelsien are found in a number of Germanic, Slavic, and Uralic languages. A few other Slavic languages use words derived from Latin "Pomum aurantium", which similarly meant "Golden apples" -- as did the Ancient Greek term, Chrisomilia. The modern Hebrew "Tapuah Zahav" means "Golden Apple" and is usually shortened to "Tapuz".


 * Some South East European tongues name orange after the country name Portugal, which was formerly the main source of imports of sweet oranges. Examples are Bulgarian portokal [портокал], Greek portokali [πορτοκάλι], Romanian portocală and Georgian phortokhali [ფორთოხალი]. Also in South Italian dialects (Neapolitan), orange is named portogallo or purtualle, literally "the Portuguese ones". Related names can also be found in non-European languages: Turkish Portakal, Arabic al-burtuqal [البرتقال], Persian porteghal [پرتقال] and Amharic birtukan.

I've also removed the associated reference, since it is no longer referred to on the page. Cnilep (talk) 17:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * John McPhee (1975). Oranges. Farrar, Straus and Giroux. ISBN 0-374-51297-3.


 * There is a link to Orange (word) from Principality of Orange for an explanation of how the word Orange became associated with the principality. Because of Cnilep's edit, the link is no longer relevant. I suggest the information about the House of Orange be either added back to Orange (word) or merged into Principality of Orange. 81.2.120.180 (talk) 17:40, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * By all means, be bold and add it in an appropriate section, with appropriate sources. Cnilep (talk) 22:04, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Sourced and done. Cnilep (talk) 18:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

This was exactly the information i was looking for on the page. Are there appropriate references for the changes of the for the land area from Arausio to Orange and the subsequent interaction with the fruit/colour name? Because if someone can add them they would be a very important contribution to the article! Cnilep - seeing as the word orange refers to at least three different things (that i am aware of) I would recommend you do a little effort to source potentially useful additions to the article before deleting them. Isolater (talk) 18:17, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Porringer
I do not understand why the rhyme with porringer was removed from the rhyme section.

Orange has the pronunciation ôr'ĭnj, and porringer is pôr'ĭn-jər. Adding any monosyllabic word that rhymes with er produces a perfect rhyme. Given that this is a closer rhyme than any of the other examples listed, I believe that this rhyme should be restored. --192.139.19.101 (talk) 16:53, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The addition constitutes WP:Original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia pages. See WP:What Wikipedia is not. Cnilep (talk) 22:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

orange rhyme
the cook used his book to whip up a tasty MELANGE; (American Oxford Dictionary) among other fruits, he included an apple and an ORANGE!!

not too difficult at all to rhyme with orange.

comments from linguists??

rich688@yahoo.com 72.158.212.66 (talk) 05:03, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

orange, sir and porringer are not complete rhymes (there is no "s" in porringer) It is not too difficult to find half rhymes with orange, such as lozenge. Half rhymes are considered perfectly acceptable in poetry. The only possible complete rhyme for orange might be a cockney saying "door hinge" ('inge)but that's scraping the barrel a bit (!) andiefisher@chello.at

June 21, 2009 edits
A bad day for this article, for some reason, lots of vandalism and reverts, but even the reverters left the article a mess, like this portion:


 * There are two English words that do rhyme with orange: Blorenge, an area in Wales; the other is the surname Gorringe. Henry Honychurch Gorringe was the man who took Cleopatra's needle from Alexandria, Egypt and brought it to New York City.


 * It is widely accepted that no single English word is a true rhyme for orange, though there are half rhymes such as hinge, lozenge, syringe, flange, Stonehenge, or porridge.[4] A commonly referred to word on this subject, however controversial, is "door hinge". Although sporange, a variant of sporangium, is an eye rhyme for
 * Whose name supplies the long-sought rhyme for "orange."

I reverted back to an older version which I believe is a comprehensible one.

Some of the edit summaries are strange. Proper nouns like Gorringe are of course allowable rhymes in poetry (There once was a man from Nantucket comes to mind); there's even a cited poem included in the article showing its use. Шизомби (talk) 03:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

'Dictionary definition' tag
Someone has tagged this page as a dictionary definition to be sent to Wiktionary. Clearly the page contains more than a definition, but it's not clear whether this constitutes a notable, encyclopedic topic. Maybe AfD would be appropriate? 75.171.180.183 (talk) 21:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Etrigan
Etrigan is a decades old comic book character from DC Comics. He is a 'rhyming demon' a rank in the Afterlife. He of course is asked about 'orange' and indicates it is a difficult rhyme, but he 'often goes with 'whore binge' '. I'll try and find the issue. Lots42 (talk) 08:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Etymology
I've checked both of the cited references for the supposed etymology disagreement paragraph in the text, and I can't find any diagreement at all. The two references are:
 * 1) Word Histories and Mysteries: From Abracadabra to Zeus. Boston: Houghton Mifflin. 2004. p. 201.
 * 2) "orange". The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. New York: Houghton Mifflin. 2000.

Both of these have essentially the same passage describing the etymology of the word "orange" and both say: "The important word for the development of our term is Old Italian melarancio, derived from mela, “fruit,” and arancio, “orange tree,”  from  Arabic nāranj."

I'm guessing someone skimmed the text a bit too quickly and missed that it's the same argument in both texts.

So, am I supposed to be bold and delete the paragraph, and add the reference to the one above it? Or does anyone have any objections?

Kindling (talk) 19:53, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The story seems to be more complicated that those two nearly identical sources suggest. According to the Oxford English Dictionary draft revision of June 2010, Italian melarancio is first attested later than French pume orenge, though they agree that the Italian is probably earlier. OED does not suggest that pume orenge was borrowed directly from Arabic, but they speculate on a possible post-classical Latin influence. Without a source on a possible Arabic connection, the current paragraph should be changed. I don't understand what you mean when you say, "add the reference to the one above it". Do feel free to re-write the paragraph to the effect that Middle English borrowed Old French pume orenge, which in turn is generally thought to have come from melarancio. Cnilep (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: AerobicFox (talk) 08:30, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

The article overall looks good, and with a few minor tweaks should meet GA requirements. With no further opening statement I'm just going to jump ahead into the in depth review.

1.:
 * (a) ;

The prose adequately describes the information in unambiguous terms except in the below two cases.
 * It is generally thought that Old French borrowed the Italian melarancio ("fruit of the orange tree", with mela "fruit") as pume orenge (with pume "fruit"),[3][4] though pume orenge is attested earlier than melarancio.

So does this mean that it is generally incorrectly thought that the Old French borrowed the Italian word, or is it just that it has not been confirmed that melrancio dates back as far as it is believed to?


 * though there are half rhymes such as hinge, lozenge, syringe, flange, Stonehenge, or porridge.

It doesn't seem to me that porridge is a half rhyme of orange. Could someone explain how it is, or is this a mistake?

The below sentence:
 * The first appearance in English in the 13th century referred to the fruit. The earliest attested use of the word in reference to the colour is from the 16th century.

Should be restated to something like:
 * The first known use of the word orange in English was in the 13th century where it was used to describe the fruit.

Something to clarify that this is its first known appearance, and not the absolute first time it was ever used. Any advice for how to reword some of the prose in the Etymology section to increase its flow and readability would be appreciated.

I'm marking this as wait in order to get some feed back on the Itallian-->Old French and porridge half rhyme.


 * (b).

All the wiki formatting here is correct, but the lead does not summarize all the main points of the article. At least a sentence should be made in the lead paragraphs to state that the word orange has been significantly noted to have no true rhyme, and that it ultimately derives from a Dravidian language. Apart from that I see no other areas of concern. I will go ahead and add such information to the lead unless someone else takes care of that before me, until then I'm marking this as wait.

2.:
 * (a) ;

Adequate sourcing, books include page numbers, or it is clear by the nature of the book where to find the information.


 * (b) ;

Yes, everything is adequately sourced.


 * (c).

This article appears to have done a good job at not including any original research.

3.:
 * (a) ;
 * The word ultimately derives from a Dravidian language

I highly suspect the reasons for the word orange originating in the middle east/India instead of in Europe to be because the orange fruit existed there before it did in Europe. If someone has made such a connection in a reliable source then that should be added. Any further information/speculation from an RS that can be found on how the word spread from the Middle east/India to Europe should also be covered. Because I'm unsure however if anything has been written about this I'm passing the section. I would appreciate any feedback from any editors here if they believe such information could be found.


 * (b).

No unnecessary details here.

4.. Clearly neutral.

5.. Very stable.

6.:
 * (a) ;

Does not apply.
 * (b).

Perhaps a time line could be made here of relevant dates, or a map showing the movement of the word from India/Middle east to Italy to France and then into English. The article doesn't really appear to need any images however, but if someone comes up with a clever idea to help the reader visualize this information better then that would definitely be a plus. Short of any clear idea for a picture that could be added to enhance the article though I'm marking this as pass.

7. Overall:

All in all some additions to the lead and added clarity on two points should make this a good article. I'll wait for some feedback on a few areas, and some changes, but in general I am happy with the articles structure, sourcing, and content, and believe it will be ready to pass in a week with a few minor changes.

Reviewer: AerobicFox (talk) 08:30, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your work in reviewing this article. Regarding the reasons for the word spreading from Asia, I suspect that your surmise is correct. There are reliable sources showing that the fruit originated in South East Asia, but I know of no reliable sources arguing that the word traveled with the fruit from South Asia through the Middle East to Europe. That's a reasonable surmise, but it is a surmise.


 * Per the half-rhymes, pronunciation of the word varies slightly. In some accents where porridge is pronounced and orange is pronounced, the words comprise a half rhyme. I just checked and the cited volume (Gorlée 2005) doesn't include any examples. Do you think these examples should be cited?


 * Your points about the missing information in the lead section and the ambiguous prose are well taken and these sections will need to be improved. Cnilep (talk) 10:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


 * If nothing states any relationship between the word and fruit then you are correct that there's nothing we can do per WP:OR. The porridge explanation does it for me; if that is how some people pronounce it then there's no need to remove it. The above examples definitely do not need to be sourced since that would just make it look messy and is really not needed, per WP:IAR I believe we should just overlook the WP:OR aspect of stating our own half rhymes since it's really not that difficult to do.


 * The changes you've made to the article in the lead and Etymology section have answered all my concerns. Without any further reason that I can see for this not meeting GA I'm going to go ahead and pass it. Good job to all that have worked on this. AerobicFox (talk) 06:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)Symbol support vote.svg