Talk:Orc/Archive 2

Tolkien's Orcs, Cannibalism
I've been reading The Return of the King and mid/late in the first chapter of the final book, the chapter being The Tower at Cirith Ungol, the Orc Shagrat threatens the orc Snaga to leave or he will eat him. Should this be added? I cannot place the page in my edition, but it is shortly before Samwise rescues Frodo; In case anyone wants to confirm this for themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.68.240.211 (talk) 01:01, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No, it's not notable enough to be added to WP. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 22:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Blizzard copied Games Workshop
I think it's very important to underline that the Orcs from the Warcraft universe began as pure copies of the Orks from the Warhammer universe. Visually they are practically identical and any notable differences concerning their nature and ethics were introduced later on - in my eyes it was a late attempt by Blizzard to slightly distance themselves from the original Warhammer Orks. --83.28.178.226 (talk) 12:24, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * What exactly did Warcraft copy from Warhammer:


 * The name? The name seems to stem from Tolkien.
 * The look? Maybe! Who first draw an Orc?
 * The population of the fantasy universe? Maybe! Both, Warhammer universe and Warcraft universe are inhabited by: Orcs, Dwarfs, Elves, Gnomes, Goblins and Humans. In case everything matches 1:1, it might be called a rip-off. Especially if this specific population wasn't there before Warhammer! Tolkien had Humans, Elves, Dwarves AND Orcs. But AFAIK no Goblins and no Trolls. Don't know if Warhammer feature Trolls. So did Warcraft "rip-off" Tolkien???
 * For Warcraft 3, the Orcs were suddenly no longer stupid brutes, but "noble savages". This was most probably done to tell the story, not to distance their franchise from Warhammer. And for WoW a hole lot of additional races/people have been invented.
 * In case the Total War series would have done a game, with Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Dragons, Mages, etc. and maybe other races/people (but without units like "Orc Boar Boys", etc,) would this be a rip-off? User:ScotXW t@lk 08:22, 1 October 2018 (UTC)


 * While the Trolls were simply a unit throwing Axes in Warcraft 1 and 2, in WoW they do "Voodoo", while the Orcs had "Shamans" in Warcraft 3. Obviously Blizzard just took the name from the Voodoo religion/cult, and the denomination Shaman and build it into their franchise. Either they didn't come up with own names, or they didn't want to overstrain their customers. And in A Song of Ice and Fire (book) and even worse in Game of Thrones (TV series) existing historical figures, names, cultures, folklore, etc. are constantly to be recognized.
 * What about Griffin? Who has the exclusive right to use this character/hero/hero mount/combat unit/you name it? What about Gargoyle?
 * Tolkien, Warhammer and Warcraft feature a battle between "good" and "evil". While Tolkien, in his very detailed fantasy world, features "Sauron" as the uber-corrupter, Warhammer and Warcraft both have a "Chaos"-faction. But while in Warhammer, Chaos has humanesque units, Warcraft's Chaos-faction, features solely daemons, AFAIK.
 * Summa-summarum: Blizzard saw Dune 2 and they saw Warhammer, and wanted to do a game uniting both ideas. User:ScotXW t@lk 09:04, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Female Orcs in Warcraft
The article states that female orcs were playable for the first time in World of Warcraft, however, a female orc spy has to be saved from prison and becomes controllable in the very first Warcraft. It's nothing big but in my eyes it's worth mentioning as this means that the series from the beginning on confirmed the existence of female orcs and at least slightly included them in the gameplay. --83.28.178.226 (talk) 12:27, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

origin of Orc mythology
I'm a bit confused. The lede says "this mythology has its origins in the writings of J. R. R. Tolkien", which would imply it is very modern, and perhaps not really myth but simply fantasy (perhaps in a mythic mode or style). But then the article gives a history of the word going back to Old English, implying that the mythology does not have its origins with Tolkien. I'm sure I'm just muddled; is there some other way to say it? -- 02:18, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Before Tolkien, ORCs had been the name of some "sea-animals of dolphin-kind", and Tolkien had to explain to his readers that his ORCs had nothing to do with them. And that's it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by  12:50, 16 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think this needs be clarified in the intro, and expanded in the origin section. "Orc" was a medieval english term for foreigners/monsters. I don't have a great source (for Wikipedia) on the subject, but this is enough to suggest prove that this page needs be revised and a good source found. Documentary on 1066 Battle of Hastings: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPnCt0IktfQ) --Polsky215 (talk) 05:06, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The above statement by that suggests OE orc[en] only means "(?) a sea-monster" is incorrect. Because Old English glossaries, e.g. First Cleopatra Glossary gloss orc as Orcus (or orci in the plural,  and additionally as "thurs" (cognate of ON word for giant) or "hell-devil". See Bosworth-Toller dictionary's  (from supplementary volume?) orc "Orcþyrs oððe heldeófol".  My source does combine it into compound Orcþyrs as done in B-T. I guess I shall add this material --Kiyoweap (talk) 02:09, 29 May 2013 (UTC) (redited after 01:55, 29 May 2013 (UTC))

°Just based on what I read in the article, I think what that means is that orcs as we know them were originally conceived by Tolkien, but there was some influence from earlier mythological monsters/creatures, some (but not all) with similar but not identical names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.98.121.98 (talk) 14:35, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Etymology
This section needs to be tidied up. It's all over the place and contradictory.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:49, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Is there a link between the ancient Greek word 'οργη, η' (wrath, drift) and the word 'ogre/orc'? - 9-12-'13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.123.40.42 (talk) 09:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

The Language of the orcs
This section is false. In the appendix of the LOTR-trilogy, Tolkien states that the orcs never managed to invent any language, but always took from neighbouring civilised people, which in general meant that they spoke the Common Speech. The orcs would invariably alter the language to such difformities that different tribes of orc wouldn't even understand each other anymore. And that's why Sauron invented the Black Speech: in order to give his orcs another lingua franca of which he would have total control, but which in the end resulted in total failure, as no one except the Nazgûls would effectively use the language. The orcs would still use some perverted version of the Common Speech (which explains why Frodo and Sam could understand the orcs in Cirith Ungol and further in Mordor, yet some influence would be felt, as for example in 'ghash', a word used by the goblins in the Moria, referring to the Balrog and understood by Gandalf. 109.129.0.36 (talk) 21:37, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Spenser could borrow his 'orcus' from 'Orlando Furioso'
'Orlando Furioso', at least in 19th century's translation by William Rose, mentions 'orc' twice, as a sea creature sent to punish people of some island for insulting Proteus, it ate a girl per day, girls were chained to a rock Andromeda-style, it was later fought by Rogero (much like Perseus fought Cetus in Ovid's 'Metamorphoses' where the author definitely took the inspiration) and eventually killed by Roland (8, LIV-LVII; 10, CI-CXI; 11, XXXVI-XLV), and as a land-dwelling ogre who pretty strongly reminds Homer's Polyphemus (17, XXIX-LXV). So we can see here both meaning, a sea creature and a cannibalistic giant.217.118.64.53 (talk) 10:33, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Robert Jordan / Shadowspawn
Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time has neither orcs, the land of Nodothril nor the Venodril mines. Earlier versions of this article had the same section under "Other fantasy works", only it was titled "Shadowspawn" and without any references to Robert Jordan. I don't know what Shadowspawn is as it's not on Google at all, but I'm guessing its some sort of really ancient tabletop or video game because the description mentions "high rates of attack", "low intelligence" and "weapon capabilities". Maybe the editor confused the title "Shadowspawn" with the shadowspawn creatures in the Wheel of Time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.100.253.205 (talk) 15:21, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Appearance in Orlando Furioso by Ariosto
An orc is mentioned in Orlando Furioso (as noted in the Wikipedia article on Orlando Furioso). It is a gigantic sea monster with a hide so tough that Orlando is only able to defeat it by allowing himself to be swallowed and killing it from within.

This seems to me to be an earlier -- and very much not obscure -- provenance to most of those mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Podperson (talk • contribs) 19:41, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Lots of cleanup still needed
The etymology section is far too long, most of it should be moved to "Orc (Middle-earth)". The "in other works" section(s) are a mess. No chronology and no order of importance. The task here is to demonstrate how the concept and perception of orcs has evolved and which works were important in adding and popularizing new elements.

Illustration versus textual description
While Tolkien wrote texts, he was compelled to describe the world and its inhabitants in words, I highly doubt, that the Warcraft people bothered with such. So a question is, WHO illustrated the Orcs WHEN in which way. The word, the denomination, "Orc" probably originates from "Lord of the Rings", but WHO decided that Orcs have a green skin, etc.? User:ScotXW t@lk 08:03, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

"Orc (Dungeons & Dragons)" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Orc (Dungeons &. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. ZXCVBNM (TALK) 18:34, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:38, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Uruk-hai statue (cropped).jpg

Illustrations
The section on alleged racism, including its illustrations, is supported by multiple reliable sources. The diagram is based directly on Magoun's view of the matter, and cited; his view is however supported by other commentators including Stewart, already cited - I will look out further sources but Magoun's views are not fringe; they are addressed to Middle-earth in the Third Age (as in Lord of the Rings), not to First Age action. The use of the caricature is similarly based on multiple reliable sources; the caption correctly draws attention to the Japanese caricature; I have replaced the German/Japanese caricature with a Japanese-only one which is certainly better focused and perhaps more Orc-like, too. There seems no justification whatever for removing these informative and helpful materials; and there is absolutely no justification for inserting uncited claims (please see WP:V and WP:OR) about characters who do not even appear in The Lord of the Rings. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

The article is about orcs as they appear in the whole Tolkien legendarium, which was a greater setting that Tolkien was singularly aware of when he wrote the Lord of the Rings. Morgoth's position in the so-called 'moral geography' is therefore important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5thEarlofSalisbury (talk • contribs) 04:31, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

CounterPunch magazine as a source
An editor is making repeated attempts to delete the material sourced to CounterPunch, claiming that it is unreliable. It is however an established and notable magazine, regularly published, presenting and discussing opinions freely. The allegation it is being cited for here, that Tolkien was expressing racism, is one that other commentators have also expressed; the article indicates that other commentators rebut the allegation, with evidence that Tolkien was indeed strongly anti-racist in his personal life, and that Lord of the Rings is plainly multi-cultural and multi-racial. All the same, the allegations exist and the CounterPunch statement fits naturally as one of these - it is not a strange outlier of political opinion in this matter. So, whether we are talking about the magazine or about the piece in it that is cited here, there is nothing to indicate that the source is unusable for some reason of policy. It should stay. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:49, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Redundancy
In-fiction origins

Tolkien proposed several theories for the origins of orcs. In The Tale of Tinúviel, Orcs originate as "foul broodlings of Melkor who fared abroad doing his evil work".[T 9] In The Fall of Gondolin Tolkien wrote that "all that race were bred by Melkor of the subterranean heats and slime."[T 10] In The Silmarillion, Orcs are East Elves (Avari) enslaved, tortured, and bred by Morgoth;[T 11] they "multiplied" like Elves and Men. Tolkien stated in a 1962 letter to a Mrs. Munsby that Orc-females must have existed.[16] In The Fall of Gondolin Morgoth made them of slime by sorcery, "bred from the heats and slimes of the earth".[T 12]

---

It seems the third and last sentences are either contradictory or redundant. If both be true (Melkor and Morgoth both made Orcs from heats and slime(s)), perhaps a clearer and closer juxtaposition be warranted. :) --Neopeius (talk) 20:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Melkor and Morgoth are the same malign Vala. Tolkien was vague and contradictory on the origins of Orcs. The article is doing it's best to give an idea of the resulting status without resorting to oversimplification or invention. There is no hurry here; more can be said if necessary, from the cited sources. I've adjusted the text slightly to say this more clearly. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:59, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Lord of the Rings 'orc' and the evil will of Sauron
Interestingly, there's little mention that the orcs in the Lord of the Rings are driven on by the overwhelming, evil will of Sauron. I seem to recall reading somewhere that had the orcs not had that will driving them onward they would flee battle entirely, as they are cowardly in nature, but also might even had their own form of innate morality restored to them, and perhaps wouldn't even be characterized as 'evil' at all, but rather just 'different.' I wish I could locate that article now. I bet one of the editors here remembers it as well. 198.70.2.200 (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Saruman did not create the uruks.
Again concepts from the movie is creeping into the story from the book. I'm referring to this sentence: "In Isengard, the Wizard Saruman has bred a large and powerful kind of orc, the Uruk-Hai, who are not afraid of daylight." The uruks (Uruk-hai - not "Uruk-Hai") were created in Mordor. They were not originally resistant to daylight. Saruman employed uruks. He possibly changed them in some way so that they were resistant to daylight, but it might also be that this new strain of uruks issued from Mordor. More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Uruk-hai#Uruks_are_the_same_as_Uruk-hai 2001:4643:1480:0:D45B:2B59:AF11:6DFA (talk) 10:06, 15 July 2021 (UTC) (Nick)


 * Thanks for the thoughts; but "bred" doesn't imply "created" but as you say, breeding up some new strain. I've fixed the case to "Uruk-hai". Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:28, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Games with orcs
Right now, Chiswick Chap is hell-bent on removing all references to Magic: the Gathering from this article and the LotR article for no particular rational reason, other than "this is not a list". If he/she wants to cut down on the number of games mentioned, that's fine, but start with the ones that most people have never heard of. The wikipedia article about MtG says that it had 35 million players in some fairly recent year or another (that's people who were playing AT THAT TIME, not the total number of people who had ever played). Warhammer, on the other hand, has been discontinued since 2015. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.70.13.107 (talk) 10:09, 28 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Hadn't seen this. But no, just insisting on reliable sourcing. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:24, 13 May 2022 (UTC)