Talk:Orcadian

Citation from the Internet Guide to Scotland inserted ("The people of Orkney ... do not see themselves as Scottish so much as Orcadian."). Mallimak 22:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, and see edit. What that means is people see themselves primarily as Orcadian - which they do, as opposed Scots, which most people will interpret it as. It is not the same as "few see themselves as Scots" - just most regard themselves Orcadian primarily - which is the case for most people I know. If you are going to say "few regard themselves as Scots", then you are going to have to provide actual data (rather than a quotation) to back that up. I think you are pushing your own agenda here. 81.158.168.96 09:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

George Mackay Brown "quotation"
Replaced George Mackay Brown quotation as this is important in the discussion about what an Orcadian is. The quotation is well-known in Orkney and is often referred to. Mallimak 12:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Mallimak, this quotation is not appropriate for an encyclopedic article. First off it's far too large to be considered a "quotation", so you're including a large portion of text which is still under copyright. It is also not a valid reference to back up your "The Orcadian’s genetic heritage mirrors the history of the islands" claim - it's a poem / piece of opinion. And Wikipedia's not Wikiquote. Thanks/wangi 12:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What's the case for this article?
It's not immediately clear to me what the purpose of this as a separate article. If it's merely going to duplicate chunks of Orkney Islands, contain poorly-sourced statements about Orcadian identity, and act as a repository for lengthy quotes, perhaps it's better off as a redirect. Alai 03:52, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

"Orcadian" is a legitimate and widely-used term
“Orcadian” is a perfectly legitimate term, widely used in books and articles to describe all those people I have contributed stubs about – as Mais oui! would discover if he took the trouble to read some books on Orkney. For example:


 * The Orkney Book edited by Donald Omand
 * The New Orkney Book by Shearer, Groundwater and John D. Mackay (this is school textbook from the 1960s)
 * An Orkney Anthology, edited by J.D. Robertson

As an instance, the introduction to the last of these books begins with words: “Ernest Walker Marwick was a distinguished Orcadian ..” My stub on Ernest Marwick is one of those where Mais oui! is determined to constantly change “Orcadian” to “Scottish”.

As for the quote from George Mackay Brown:


 * First the aborigines
 * That houked Scara Brae from the sand,
 * Then the Picts,
 * Those small dark cunning men
 * Who scrawled their history in stone ...
 * And then the tigers from east over sea,
 * The blond butchering Vikings,
 * Whose last worry on sea or land
 * Was purity of race, as they staggered couchwards
 * After a fill of ale.
 * Finally, to make the mixture thick and slab,
 * The off-scourings of Scotland,
 * The lowest sleaziest pimps from Lothian and the Mearns,
 * Fawning in the train of Black Pat,
 * And robbing and raping ad lib.
 * And robbing and raping ad lib.


 * But that’s not all.
 * For many a hundred ships have ripped their flanks
 * On Rora Head, or the Noup,
 * And the Basque sailor lads and bearded skippers from Brittany
 * Left off their briny ways to cleave a furrow
 * Through Orkney crofts and lasses.

This was quoted in one of the books I list under “References”, so I do not think there are any copyright issues. Furthermore, the fact it has been so quoted when describing what an Orcadian is, supports its being quoted in this Wikipedia article.

Incidentally, the 10th anniversary of George Mackay Brown’s death is being celebrated this year in Orkney as the 10th anniversary of the death of a great ORCADIAN!

Mallimak13:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This misses the point so spectacularly, that were it not for WP:AGF, I'd wonder if it does not do so deliberately. What is the the scope for a distinct encyclopaedia article on "Orcadian", that's beyond the currently very modest content of Orkney Islands? Place any appropriate content there, before looking to create separate articles with highly unclear scopes. Alai 16:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)