Talk:Orde Wingate/Archive 1

Eccentric
He was supposed to have a special grease stained uniform for meeting important personages.

Main and Redirect pages
The man's name was Orde Charles Wingate for some reason this entry redirects the user to Charles Orde Wingate

I would propose changing these around - unless someone says otherwise Saltmarsh 14:16, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Why does Orde Wingate have 2 different dates of birth? Was he born on the 23rd or 26th February 1903? Neil Rees

He was born on February 26th 1903. Aaron Eitan Meyer

Confusion
"Wingate convinced the Zionist Jewish Agency and the leadership of Haganah, the Jewish armed group."

I'm sorry, but I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. It's from the end of the first paragraph in the "Palestine and Special Night Squads" section. Thank you. LordAmeth 11:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the Jewish Agency and the Haganah
Wingate not only had to convince the political leadership, but the military as well. The statement is a bit off though, as the political leadership did in fact control the military. On the other hand, a demarcation could be made regarding the primarily domestic leadership of the Haganah as opposed to the Jewish Agency. His success in this regard did not come all at once either. While he became known as HaYedid, initially he was referred to somewhat disparagingly by Kibbutzniks as HaYedid Shelcha, "your friend" due to his initial friendship with a particular Jewish member. Once his offers were accepted as in good faith, and he proved himself in other ways, the qualifier was dropped. By comparison, British officer Antony Simonds was considered a 'lightweight,' and his offers of aid, which were in some ways akin to those made by Wingate, were declined.

Transferring line out of place at bottom of article
"General Wingate School Ethiopia memorial for the general"

British Israelites and Christian Zionism
Does anyone know anything about British Christian Zionism? Is it related to the British Israelites? I am interested in Oliver Cromwell, Isaac Newton, William Blake, Orde Wingate, Lloyd George and Winston Churchill. Is there any information about secret societies in Britain which have Christian Zionist views? What sect did Orde Wingate belong to?

Wool Bridge (talk) 23:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not aware of secret sects of Christian Zionists having any connection to Wingate at any point. He was raised a member of the Plymouth Brethren, a Puritan offshoot, though his schooling from Charterhouse on was more standard in terms of religion. His grandfather was a missionary in Eastern Europe, trying to convert Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by OCW (talk • contribs) 21:29, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There has to be a connection to Christian Zionism as Orde Wingate created the Israeli Defense Forces and is referred to as a Christian Zionist by Sir John Glubb. He was described as Christian Zionist in the 2007 BBC documentary; Clash of Worlds - Palestine. Wool Bridge (talk) 17:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This is tricky territory as Glubb probably used the term 'Christian Zionist' in a sense very different from the sizeable modern day movement in America. Wingate was a Christian who was also a Zionist. The American Christian Zionist movement is a millenarian movement which is caught up in the Apocalyptic idea of the Rapture, in which the Just will be 'taken up' to Heaven while the Sinful will remain on Earth to suffer Tribulation after the Last Judgement. These guys believe that the End Days will be presaged by the restoration of the ancient land of Israel. Thus they are staunchly pro-Zionist in its most Right Wing sense, believing that once Israel is reformed the Second Coming will occur during which time any Jews who don't convert will go to the Fiery Pit with everyone else. There is precisely zero evidence that this was Wingate's belief. More likely he felt a debt to the Jewish people for Christian persecution and as what he would have deemed being God's 'Chosen People'. I think we have to be really careful in ascribing latter day attitudes to Wingate. Its significant that this article seems to prioritise his role as a pro-Zionist in the 1930s over the achievement he is really most famous for, which was the creation of the Chindits and his new and influential ideas about warfare. His Deep Penetration ideas were studied and used by both sides in the Vietnam War and, arguably, helped inspire Operation Market Garden. ThePeg (talk) 12:29, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The Plymouth Brethren are greatly influenced by John Nelson Darby who believed there are some prophecies in the Bible relating to Israel which are yet to be fulfilled. He believed that God's dealings with Israel has been temporarily put aside and that we are currently in the Age of Grace or church age. Once the church has been taken away (raptured and given new permanent bodies),the Church age ends and God's promises to Israel are renewed and earlier promises fulfilled. After the church disappears there is a 7 year tribulation period followed by the return of the Lord and a 1000 year reign of Christ on the Earth, centred in Jerusalem. Darby's theory is known as dispensationalism which has become very popular and is fairly mainstream theology of today. Many people holding to this doctrine view the re-establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 as an indication that their doctrine is correct. An alternative doctrine is that God completely rejected the Jewish race as His people, all of Gods promises and unfulfilled prophecy now relate to the church, and the church includes all Old Testament Saints and Jews from the 1st century onwards who convert to Christianity. --Another berean (talk) 08:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Commemoration
It is not clear to me if General Wingates remains are here, or somewhere else. Since he was a British Officer, I am not sure why an American Cemetary should be used. Jokem (talk) 17:36, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * He is buried at Arlington because when the American aircraft he was flying in crashed into a Burmese hillside at around 160mph the remains of the occupants were so compacted as to be indistinguishable and inseparable, making it impossible to identify or sort out the individual bodies, and so the combined remains, including Wingate's, were shipped to the US for burial.


 * Otherwise Wingate would probably have been buried at the Imperial War Graves Commission cemetery at New Delhi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.68.219 (talk) 21:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)