Talk:Order of Saint John (disambiguation)

Untitled
Editorial Note:

Wikipedia entries can be edited by anyone. This page has been edited by a number of individuals since I (the original author of this page) first posted it. One editor inserted the name of a mimic order in the list of recognized orders. To be certain, the Canadian and San Francisco Bay Area based "Sovereign Order of St. John of Jerusalem, Knights Hospitaller" is a mimic order and not a recognized order. Perhaps the same editor removed my text commenting on how the leadership of mimic orders often 1) use their organizations to promote their personal businesses, 2) use their organizations to fulfill an unmet need for personal importance, and 3) seek out notable personalities as members to garner credibility. This page will be monitored for such tampering.

The Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem The Priory in the United States of America
History

In 1957, a group of American citizens, whose close British ties over the years had acquainted them with The Order of St. John and its work, expressed a desire to have a more active role in the work of the Order. In December of 1957, The American Society of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem was legally incorporated in the State of New York. (This continues to be the Priory’s tax-exempt charitable arm.)

Among the early pioneers in founding and building The American Society were such prominent people as Douglas Fairbanks, Jr.; the Drexel family; Grayson Kirk, President of Columbia University; The Right Rev. Horace W. Donegan, Episcopal Bishop of New York; Hugh Bullock, industrial executive; David Granger, an investment banker; and William V. Griffin, one of the founders of Time, Inc.

Over the years, women have played an increasingly important role in the membership and governance of the Priory in the U.S., and today women hold high grades and offices in the Order.

The Priory in the U.S. was formally established at a dedication ceremony held in the National Cathedral, Washington, DC, on May 11, 1996. The new Priory included members of The American Society of the Order of St. John. His Royal Highness, the Duke of Gloucester, the Grand Prior, presided and formally handed the instruments of foundation to the Prior of the newly recognized Priory, John R. Drexel IV, KStJ, who succeeded his father John R. Drexel III as leader of the U.S. organization. John R. Drexel IV retired in 2008 as Prior but continues to be closely involved with the Order as a Life Governor. In 2008 the Priory Headquarters moved to 1875 K St. NW, Washington, D.C. and A. Marshall Acuff, Jr. was installed as the new U.S. Prior.

Refer: http://www.saintjohn.org/c/History.cfm Jan 20 2010

note at the time of posting and to the best of my knowlege This is the only recognized Prior of the The Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem in the U.S.

Further information on the order can be found at : http://www.orderofstjohn.org/other-orders-of-st-john-2 as well as simply search for History of St. John Ambulance

David R. Walsh s.b.SJA —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lynxcom1 (talk • contribs) 15:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Merge with Knights Hospitaller
I suggested, that this article need be merged with Knights Hospitaller, as is about same Order.--Yopie (talk) 02:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe you were right earlier - all this material is already covered in Knights Hospitaller. This entire article is redundant.  It should be removed and redirected to Knights Hospitaller.  I think this will effectively settle this disagreement. ColDickPeters (talk) 21:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree somewhat. I believe this page should be pared down to "Order of St. John Aliance".  The rest of this material is covered in considerable depth elsewhere in Wikipedia. Ubama (talk) 18:38, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The Alliance of the Orders of St. John of Jerusalem article already exists. There is no need to preserve this article. Il Castrato (talk) 14:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * How did I miss that? Based on the "Order of St. John Alliance" already being available, then I revise my opinion to "Redirect". Ubama (talk) 17:15, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Alright, lacking any objections, I will redirect to "Knights Hospitaller" later today. Il Castrato (talk) 15:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Yopie's recent edit warring
Ladies and Gentlemen, may we please develop a consensus concerning Yopie's recent edit warring? ColDickPeters (talk) 21:53, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits
User ColDickPeters deleted sourced and referenced parts of article, without explanation. He have problem with "Admissions to the two Russian Grand Priories ceased in 1811" and " By 1964 King Peter II had formed his own order but as a deposed monarch living in exile he had no such powers, particularly since the limitations of the former Yugoslav Royal Constitution did not confer the authority to "validate" a foreign Order even had he been reigning. Hence this claim is without merit. Following King Peter II's death in 1970, his son, Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, stated that he does not recognize the validity of any organization claiming to stem from the constitution granted by his father." Both are referenced. Any comments by neutral editor?--Yopie (talk) 21:55, 8 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe you were right earlier - all this material is already covered in Knights Hospitaller. This entire article is redundant.  It should be removed and redirected to Knights Hospitaller.  I think this will effectively settle this disagreement. ColDickPeters (talk) 21:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

From the originator of the "Order of St. John" page on Wikipedia
I created the original Wikipedia article on the Order of St. John. I am a little surprised by the evolution of the article.

I am a member of original Roman Catholic order, commonly referred to as SMOM. I had been a member of a mimic/self-styled order not knowing it to be such. Upon learning the truth, I left. Upon learning the truth, I researched the mimic/self-styled orders at length. The original Wikipedia article that I created included a historical overview of the Order (borrowed from SMOM's web site), an acknowledgement of the four Alliance orders, and a caution regarding mimic/self-styled orders.

Shortly after I posted the article, someone edited my article to add the Vancouver/San Francisco Bay Area based mimic order (claiming a King Peter II pedigree) to the list of Alliance orders. I erased this edit. Someone reposted that this same mimic order was recognized. This went back and forth a few times. It seems a phony did not want a secret to get out.

For a very well researched discussion of mimic/self-styled orders, please see: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/selfstyle/selfstyl.htm. An Anglican priest is the author. He is very much to the point: applaud anyone who is serving the sick and the poor but let us be truthful as to history.

Also see http://web.archive.org/web/20050308033552/http://www.chivalricorders.org/orders/self-styled/selfsty1.htm.

Also, the Royal House of Yugoslavia disavows the King Peter II mimic orders; see http://www.orderstjohn.org/kposj/serbian.htm. King Peter II had NO connection to the Order of St. John prior to the early 1960s. I personally met the King's personal secretary and his niece (Princess Elizabeth). They related the whole story. The mimic orders have a fabricated history that the Royal House of Yugoslavia assumed the protectorship of the order when the Royal House of Russia felt in 1917. In fact, King Peter II affiliated with a mimic order in the early 1960s then formed his own a year later. The group splintered and splintered and splintered. His son, Crown Prince Alexander, disavows ALL mimic orders that have sprung from his father. As a note, the web page cited in this paragraph presents a letter from Crown Prince Alexander to a person named Walter Pincket (now deceased). Mr. Pincket was the general secretary of a King Peter group headquartered in Belgium. After being accused of financial wrongdoing, there was another splinter and the headquarters moved to Vancouver, British Columbia. Coincidently, this is the same group that was improperly added as an Alliance order (three paragraphs up).

A few months after I posted my original article, someone completely overhauled the Order of St. John article. It was a very well written article. It was thoroughly referenced. It was of academic quality.

Today, I checked on the status of the article. It is no more. The Order of St. John article automatically maps to Knights Hospitaller. Sadly absent from the article is any meaningful warning regarding the mimic/self-styled orders. As I read a few of the comments above, it would seem that some individuals desperately want to keep certain facts about mimic/self-styled order out of this article. I will guess that whatever the article is called, it will be continually modified by those are clinging to a falsehood. Personally, I applaud the good works of all but -- like the Anglican priest said -- we must be truthful to history.

tganos@earthlink.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.163.38 (talk) 06:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)