Talk:Order of St Michael and St George

Untitled
Whom was so honored?


 * List of some K.C.M.G. recipients
 * Sir Theophilus Shepstone (1817-93) was created a K.C.M.G. in 1876.
 * Sir John Scarlett (18 August 1948) was appointed OBE 1987, CMG inn 2001 and KCMG in 2007.


 * List of some G.C.M.G.recipients
 * Sir Michael Hardie Boys (b.1931),former Governor-General of New Zealand (1996-2001) was created a G.C.M.G. in early 1996.

Yes, Minister got it wrong...
It should be:

CMG - call me god.

KCMG - kings call me god

GCMG - god calls me god

Think about it - why on earth would the middle rank say kindly call me god, when the lower rank says it as a command?


 * Because it's perfectly possible to make "kindly do such-and-such" sound immensely condescending. "Kindly make the tea, Smythe" etc. 86.132.139.119 (talk) 20:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

My grandfather was a GCMG and used to recount that joke decades before Yes, Minister came along.
 * I also heard it before Yes, Minister, as Kindly Call me God! -- Necrothesp 13:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've amended the article to include both versions and to point out that it didn't originate with Yes, Minister (I'm pretty sure I've done this before - somebody must have changed it back!). -- Necrothesp 13:57, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Note that KCMG alone has a female form - DCMG (Dame Commander). I have seen more than one suggestion that this could stand for “Do Call Me God”. If this can be properly sourced, it could be added to the article. 2A00:23C7:E287:1900:90F3:7CE5:2C46:EC05 (talk) 07:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

...oh no it didn't!
Don't know if you are interested chaps, but there's a quote from the journalist Anthony Sampson (b. 1926) that (I think) predates 'Yes Minister'. It's from a book of his, Anatomy of Britain Today (1965). Here's the quote - from chapter 18: "Members rise from CMG (known sometimes in Whitehall as "Call Me God") to KCMG ("Kindly Call Me God") to GCMG ("God Calls Me God")."

Hope this proves useful. Toodle Pip

Ah, thought someone else might have added that Yes Minsiter reference - the episode in which Hacker visits Sir Humphrey's Alma Mater, wasn't it?

Is Collar wore by Knight/Dame Grand Cross only?
I have seen a photo. The man was a Knight Commandar only, but he wore a Collar too. Can anyone explain it???--219.79.107.17 18:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Despite the caption on the Australian National Archives site you linked to, Sir Joseph Cook was in fact a GCMG, not a KCMG. I've added a reference to the notice of appointment in the London Gazette to the Joseph Cook article. --Dr pda 13:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Knights vs Dames
In the See also section there is a disparity between Knights Commander and Dames Commander as to whether or not "of the Order of" is appropriate. - Kittybrewster 20:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * This comes from the fact that when members of orders were first categorised, the categories created missed out "of the Order of", such as "Knights Commander of the British Empire" etc. However, these categories should be renamed to include "of the Order of". Craigy ( talk? ) 20:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That job needs somebody who knows how to use a Bot, I would think - Kittybrewster 20:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Hgg-016.jpg
The image File:Hgg-016.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --01:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Current Knights and Dames Grand Cross
There are at least four persons listed in the article who are not current, being deceased. Two of these died only in the last 2 months, so their removal to "Select Former Recipients" is a matter of someone getting it done. But two have been long deceased, and should not be listed as current. (Sources: The wikipedia articles for each person named.) The persons concerned are:

Knights and Dames Grand Cross

– The Rt.Hon. Sir Seewoosagur Ramgoolam GCMG (1965) – died 15 December 1985

– The Rt. Hon. The Viscount Soulbury, GCMG GCVO, DL (1978) – died 9 April 2010

Honorary Appointments

– Ong Teng Cheong, Honorary GCMG (1998) – died 8 February 2002

– Ryszard Kaczorowski, Honorary GCMG (2004) – died 10 April 2010

Ptilinopus (talk) 04:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The article on the Emir of Qatar Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani claims that he received the honor in 1976, yet he does not appear in this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.208.21.162 (talk) 15:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Royal appointments
Are the only royals in the Order the Queen as Sovereign and the Duke of Kent? The Duke of Edinburgh was never appointed as royal consort and his role in the Second World War? The Prince of Wales and Duke of York weren't awarded it for their active duty work in the Navy? 74.69.11.229 (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The Queen is the Sovereign of the Order and the Duke of Kent is the Grand Master of the Order. In the Order of the Bath, again The Queen is the Sovereign of the Order and the Prince of Wales is the Grand Master of the Order and Sir Timothy Laurence is a Companion (for military service). The Order of the Bath is for military service and the Order of St M and St G is for diplomacy. Nford24 (Want to have a chat?) 22:15, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Eytmologies
These need to be included. For example: "GCMG" is not an initialism.174.3.125.23 (talk) 08:46, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Your correct its not an acronym, its a Post-nominal. Please elaborate on how Etymology would help the page. Nford24 (Want to have a chat?) 09:25, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Fazle Abed
Fazle Abed is listed as an honorary KCMG, but as he also holds British citizenship, shouldn't he be a regular appointee instead? Ratibgreat (talk) 02:33, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Why those two saints?
There must have been a reason, let's source it and put it in the article. 24.130.15.8 (talk) 05:11, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * They are the two patron saints of England. I would like a citation for St. Michael as such but I have read in some academic works that St. Michael is a traditional English patron saint, unfortunately said academic failed to cite it so I don't know any details.


 * St. George is the patron saint of England, and a military saint, as the order was originally an order signifying the British protectorate of the Ionian Islands. Eastern Orthodox sensibilities, where St. Michael is venerated, in a role equivalent to that of St. George, were probably being appealed to by the latter saint's inclusion. That, of course, isn't quite the definitive source you seek. Dhtwiki (talk) 16:21, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

St George is also much in evidence in Greece - enter many Orthodox churches and you will see a familiar figure on horseback spearing a dragon. That both these saints are respected in Orthodoxy and one identified with England looks like the reason they were picked. But we need first-hand evidence from a diplomatic memoir, or something. 2A00:23C5:E08D:8A00:CC37:31DF:80A8:6463 (talk) 02:33, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Foreign to whom/what?
Somewhere in the introductory section there should be a mention of to what nation this order belongs. We should not assume that a reader unfamiliar with the order will recognize the names of the monarchs as having been kings of England/Great Britain/the UK. It is not the only nation with orders. Until that nation is named, it is not clear what would constitute "foreign" service. Since the article states that the award is made by the British sovereign, I am going to revise the article to refer to it as a British order. If someone knows better, please correct the order's nationality.
 * I got to this page after reading the article on Shimon Peres. Since I doubted that Israel or Poland have such an order, I followed the link to ascertain the country of the award. As the article stands now, there wasn't an answer in the intro unless I followed a link to one of the named monarchs or continued reading the article.

Ileanadu (talk) 23:36, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

So after making the change I noticed that the info box says it is awarded by the sovereign of the UK. That would appear to contradict what is in the text. I don't know which is correct. Ileanadu (talk) 23:39, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

The Order is awarded by the Sovereign of the United Kingdom. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 08:51, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Order of St Michael and St George. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20140314114344/http://nus.edu.sg/about-nus-2/history/chancellors/ong-teng-cheong to http://www.nus.edu.sg/about-nus-2/history/chancellors/ong-teng-cheong
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120925225259/http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/protocol/honours/2008-honoraries to http://www.fco.gov.uk/resources/en/protocol/honours/2008-honoraries
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20121001054124/http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depositedpapers/2009/DEP2009-2154.doc to http://www.parliament.uk/deposits/depositedpapers/2009/DEP2009-2154.doc

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 17:01, 8 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Checked. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:31, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 1 one external link on Order of St Michael and St George. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150331023400/http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/OrderofStMichaelandStGeorge.aspx to http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/OrderofStMichaelandStGeorge.aspx

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 10:59, 24 April 2016 (UTC)


 * These later archive snapshots of the old royal.gov site don't seem generally to work, but without returning an error. Will rework archive link, pointing to earliest, 2009, archive snapshot. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:17, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Order of St Michael and St George. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20120710100633/findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDP/is_2002_Nov_11/ai_94330283 to http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0WDP/is_2002_Nov_11/ai_94330283

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 23:54, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Order of St Michael and St George. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20141016022945/https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/honorary-british-awards-to-foreign-nationals-2014.html to https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/honorary-british-awards-to-foreign-nationals-2014.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 06:40, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

“lady” Kathryn McBride
What’s with ‘instagram famous’ people trying to be medal chests? An anonymous IP keeps adding “Lady” Kathryn McBride to the list of honorary GCMG recipients for 2018 “for humanitarian” service. McBride keeps being added and has been for months now, I’ve looked into it and no one by that name has been admitted into any grade of the Order of St Michael and St George. So where do we go from here? It’s clearly persistent vandalism, should this page be protected from IP editing? Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 02:00, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Charles Warren
I belive of Sir Charles Warren was K.C.M.G. and deserve mentioning ‘Life’ Published in Kimberly - January 4th 1884.” The Royal Engineers Journal (1884): 54. — Preceding unsigned comment added by תלמוד חירם אבי (talk • contribs) 17:09, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Confused...
"People are appointed to the Order rather than awarded it." What is the difference? 141.155.6.2 (talk) 22:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Order of post-nominal initials
Please could it be explained why, in the set for Sir Shridath Ramphal, 'AC' comes before 'ONZ'? The Order of Australia still has (theoretically, at least) 'AK'/'AD' grades, even if they are not currently used, and they are higher than 'AC', whereas the Order of New Zealand is a single-grade honour (albeit with 'Ordinary', 'Additional' and 'Honorary' categories), which, discounting the Order of the Garter, the Order of the Thistle, the Royal Victorian Order and the Order of Merit that are used outside that realm, is the top honour of New Zealand. Furthermore, the article on Dame Kiri Te Kanawa shows her being an 'AC' as below even 'DBE', let alone 'ONZ'. ZeroAlpha87 (talk) 21:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Ramphal is a citizen of Guyana, and the UK order of wear for commonwealth citizens is they’re in order of being received. AC - 1982 and ONZ - 1990. Te Kanawa is a citizen of New Zealand and that’s the correct placement in accordance with the New Zealand order of wear. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 05:46, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Where can I find sources to back up this? ZeroAlpha87 (talk) 17:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Both are referenced articles on WP. United Kingdom honours order of wearing UK Order of Wear & New Zealand honours order of wearing New Zealand Order of Wear. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:25, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Where, as in on which page, does it state specifically that 'the UK order of wear for [C]ommonwealth citizens is they're in order of being received'? ZeroAlpha87 (talk) 17:06, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 'COMMONWEALTH REALM’S ORDERS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS' is its own section on page 327 in the London Gazette: UK Order of Wear with a single line "In date of award (if authorised to be accepted and worn)". Did you even read it? Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No: I fully intended for the expert to point me in the right direction. ZeroAlpha87 (talk) 21:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Why ask a question if you have no interest in the answer? Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:23, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have plenty of interest in the answer, but I felt as though I should bow down to others' superior knowledge. Nothing wrong with that, is there? ZeroAlpha87 (talk) 21:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well that's hands down the weirdest response I've had this year on WP. You should probably check the poor attitude at the door before editing, just my opinion. Nford24 (PE121 Personnel Request Form) 21:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes: just your opinion...for what it's worth. ZeroAlpha87 (talk) 21:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)