Talk:Order of battle for Convoy PQ 17

Article
I would like to see a brief discussion of what is a convoy and the reason. This would include a link to the main article on convoys. I find the subject interesting and notable. I vote to keep. Expansion of why the convoy scattered and the loss of command and control would be nice. (It is covered in the main article.)

The article does not appear to be an orphan. It is listed with several related articles. I have removed the orphan tag. With the discussion and expansion above, this article would be greatly improved.

Some people over use the maintenance tags without explanation or what is wrong. With those people, one must be persistent to find out what is the problem they see. I have learned than explaining what is needed is often better. Jrcrin001 (talk) 02:45, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have created this list-article in order to remove a long box in the main Convoy PQ 17 article - the list was not making the article flow correctly. So, this article was created, taking the cue from the Battle of Jutland article, (which has a number of lists contributing to the main article - here, here etc. ). Having said that, I must agree with Jrcrin001, especially considering that the maintenance tags were added within less than ten minutes from the article's creation. I agree with all article maintenance and edits which provide an improvement to the article. Wikipedia may not be a place for unverifiable information - but it is not a race either.  reuv  T 08:01, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Expansion
Can I suggest a slight change of scope to the article, that it become a complete order of battle for the convoy, with the name changing to something like Order of battle for Convoy PQ 17? Following the example of Order of battle for Convoy SC 7, it would be good to include here a thorough listing of all merchants, and their escorts, and the attacking Kriegsmarine forces, for a complete overview of those involved in the operation. Something like this would easily satisfy any concern over the notability of just the ships sunk in a convoy. I can make a start on this if people think it's a good idea. Benea (talk) 23:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I would agree to such a change in scope. reuv  T 12:29, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Military custom and decorum refers to Order of Battle as the units (types and commanders) being engaged. Lists are used to determine losses and outcome. The fate column provides a list in the example above and is a good combination. Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Changes were nicely done! Jrcrin001 (talk) 02:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Comments 2
I removed {notability|date=September 2009} and {context|date=September 2009} tags. With link to main article and an intro line this meets WP criteria and is supported by similar articles with list pages. Jrcrin001 (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions
Shouldn't the first three paras be combined? And where are the Luftwaffe units that participated? Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And is this page linked from the main PQ-17 article? I didn't notice a link. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Numbers
I've tried to clarify the numbers in the introduction, pusuant to the discussion (of sorts) here. I've had to take the U-boatnet reference out because its wrong (or at least, not completely accurate) though there's no one source that gives the numbers succintly. I've added the sources I've used, and put the Uboatnet article in the external links. I trust that's OK with everyone. Xyl 54 (talk) 02:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Surface ships
I thought I'd better add the German surface ships if this is to be a full Order of Battle page. I've also tried to add a summary, and split it into Allied and Axis sections. Xyl 54 (talk) 02:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

suggestion
I feel that the incipit

Convoy PQ 17 was the penultimate of the PQ/QP series of arctic convoys, bound from British ports through the Arctic Ocean via Reykjavík to the White Sea ports of the Soviet Union, particularly Murmansk and Archangel.

is misleading because suggests that also the QP traveled in this direction and that the ships gathered in R from UK (I suppose that gathered from US and Canada) --- excuse me if this is due to my poor english Suppongoche (talk) 10:07, 18 May 2021 (UTC)