Talk:Order of battle for the Battle of Long Tan

NVA/VC order of battle
There are several errors in the NVA/VC order of battle. The commander of 275 VC Regiment was LTCOL Nguyen Thoi Bung (aka Ut Thoi). Reference: Chamberlain, E., The Viet Cong D445 Battalion: Their Story, Point Lonsdale, 2011 Annex J - The 275th VC Regiment. There was no discrete NVA Battalion (suspected) - the confusion arises because in May 1966 when 275 Regiment restructured, it incorporated the D605 NVA Battalion to become its 3rd Battalion (which had been disbanded). Reference: Chamberlain, E., The Viet Cong D445 Battalion: Their Story, Point Lonsdale, 2011 Annex J - The 275th VC Regiment. 274 VC Regiment: There was no plan for 274 VC Regiment to ambush any Allied relief forces - ie 11ACR moving from the Blackhorse base. 11 ACR not arrive in-country and reconnoitre the Blackhorse base area at west of Route 2 at Long Giao until September 1966 during its Operation Atlanta - works on the Blackhorse base did not begin until the second half of October - Reference: Chamberlain, E., The Viet Cong D440 Battalion: Their Story, Point Lonsdale, 2013, p.19, f.30 citing 11ACR records. 274 Regiment's plans for August 1966 are known from the captured notebook of the Regiment's 2ic - Nguyen Nam Hung, that relates its activities in August 1966, including on 18 August 1966. Reference: Chamberlain, E., The Viet Cong D445 Battalion: Their Story, Point Lonsdale, 2011, p.39, p.41, f.122, f.131 and Annex N, f.22 and f.29. A more complete note on the NVA/VC order of battle at Long Tan is in Chamberlain, E.P., The Battle of Long Tan 18/8/66 - NVA/VC Revisited, Paper to the Conference: "Vietnam: International Perspectives on a Long War", Australian War Memorial - Canberra, 16 August 2013. Ernieacorn (talk) 05:01, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello Ernie,
 * Due the issues I'm having getting access to the annexes could you pls provide a page number for the ref to LTCOL Nguyen Thoi Bung (aka Ut Thoi)?
 * Re Ut Thoi - there seems to be quite a few possible IDs for the comd of 275th Regt. McNeill & Ekins 2003, p. 48 states 275 Regt was: "commanded by Ut Thoi (Nguyen Duong according to one source)". This article and the Long Tan parent article currently uses "Ut Thoi". Would you suggest adding both Nguyen Thoi Bung and Nguyen Duong?
 * A found a ref to this in Davies 2012 Vietnam: The Complete Story of the Australian War p. 211, who states: "Senior Captain (later Lieutenant General) Nguyen Thoi Bung, known as Ut Thoi, who commanded the 275 Regiment". As such will look to incorporate this shortly. Anotherclown (talk) 12:27, 15 October 2013 (UTC) ✅
 * Re 274th Regts plan (or otherwise) to ambush 11 ACR. Agree with your points about Blackhorse and have excised from the Long Tan article after going back to source per this edit, however, according to McNeill 1993 p. 563 fn 58 "3 Squadron 11 Armoured Cavalry Regiment (ACR) had arrived in Long Khanh province on 12 August and was followed by the remainder of the regiment in September." As such the possible plan to ambush a Sqn of 11 ACR (as the text currently states) is not necessarily incorrect as a Sqn was in SVN at that time (as McNeill claims).
 * Equally McNeill 1993, pp 369-370, quoting an interview with Nguyen Thanh Hong, states: "In conjunction with the ambush in the rubber plantation, 274 Regiment was sited in a second ambush position astride Route 2, north of Bin Ba. Their role was to ambush a squadron of the US 11 Armoured Cavalry Regiment if it moved down inter-provincial Route 2 to support the Australians". Likewise according to McNeill 1993, p. 563allied intelligence later confirmed the 274th Regiment had been located between Ngai Giao and the northern provincial border on 18 August and moved west into the Hat Dich after the battle. The current text of the ORBAT is reflective of both of these points I believe.
 * IRT your point re deputy comd 274th Regt's (Nguyen Nam Hung) notebook. I assume you are referring to this edit on the Long Tan article where you stated: "274th Regiment located over 30km to the 15 to 20 km north-west, harassing Route 15 in Long Thanh District of Bien Hoa province - as indicated in the later captured notebook of the Regiment's 2ic."
 * Given these points there seems to be a disagreement b/n two (seemingly) reliable sources about this. So I propose incorporating your text in addition to what is already there and noting the discrepancy. Will need the page number so I can cite it though. Is this possible? Thanks again. Anotherclown (talk) 11:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Further, re: "There was no discrete NVA Battalion (suspected) - the confusion arises because in May 1966 when 275 Regiment restructured, it incorporated the D605 NVA Battalion to become its 3rd Battalion (which had been disbanded). Reference: Chamberlain, E., The Viet Cong D445 Battalion: Their Story, Point Lonsdale, 2011 Annex J - The 275th VC Regiment. 274 VC Regiment". Can you pls provide a page number for this also? Thanks again. Anotherclown (talk) 11:17, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Gday again. I found that this is also covered extensively in Davies pp. 227-230 and will look to include shortly. Anotherclown (talk) 09:24, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ I have added a note to this effect but am hesitant to devout more space to it as it is reflective of a single source, rather than the bulk of the literature available currently. Happy to discuss. Anotherclown (talk) 10:35, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

NVA/VC Order of Battle - Battle of Long Tan
Hi All, Additional to my earlier postings - that, amongst other sources, cited the 1991 D445 History, the 5th VC Division History (1995, 2005), and other material, I have now posted a discrete two-page order-of-battle for NVA/VC forces (including personalities) for the Battle of Long Tan on the Internet (free-to-read - via Scribd): "The Battle of Long Tan 18/8/66 - NVA/VC Revisited".

Following my presentation on "The Enemy" at the Australian War Memorial's conference : "International Perspectives on a Long War" in Canberra in mid-August 2013, I provided a two-page "handout" to participants. Since then, some new information from Hanoi interlocutors (received in very late 2013) has suggested that Vũ Quốc Chánh (Tư Chánh) may have commanded D445 at the Battle. However, Vietnamese military authorities have not accepted that suggestion. Based on other material (including the pre-Battle biannual reports by the D445 commanding officer - Bùi Quang Chánh/Sáu Chánh and his political officer - Đổ Văn Liên/Ba Liên), I believe that it is unlikely that Vũ Quốc Chánh (Tư Chánh) commanded D445 at the Battle. I hope to publish on D445 again later this year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erniechamberlain (talk • contribs) 10:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Is this really necessary?
Battle of Long Tan is already an overlong, detailed page for a battle that lasted less than 4 hours, do we really need to have this page also? Is there anything here that isn't covered on the main page or can't easily be put there? Mztourist (talk) 10:06, 2 February 2020 (UTC)