Talk:Order of the Dragon

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Original members of the Order of the Dragon document the founding charters 1408th
Stephanus despoth, dominus Rasciae, item Hermannus comes Cily et Zagoriae, comes Fredericus, filius eiusdem, Nicolaus de gara, regni Hungariae palatinus, Stiborius de Stiboricz alias vaiuoda Transyluanus, Joannes filius Henrici de Thamassy et Jacobus Laczk de Zantho, vaiuodae Transyluani, Joannes de Maroth Machouiensis, Pipo de Ozora Zewreniensis, bani; Nicolaus de Zeech magister tauernicorum regalium, comes Karolus de Corbauia, supremus thesaurarius regius, Symon filius condam Konye bani de Zecheen, janitorum, comes Joannes de Corbauia, dapiferorum, Joannes filius Georgii de Alsaan pincernarum, Petrus Cheh de Lewa aganzonum regalium magistri, Nicolaus de Chak, alias vaiuoda Transyluanus, Paulus Byssenus, alter Paulus de Peth, pridem Dalmatiae, Croatiae et totius Sclauoniae regnorum bani, Michael, filius Salamonis de Nadasd comes siculorum regalium, Petrus de Peren, alias siculorum nunc vero maramorossensis comes, Emericus de eadem Pern secretarius cancellarius regius et Joannes filius condam domini Nicolai de Gara palatini.

G. Fejér: Codex Diplomaticus Hungariae ecclesiasticus ac civilis, X/4, Budae, 1841, 317.
 * 1) Th. v. Bogyay: Drachenorden, u: Lexikon des Mittelalters, Band 3, Varlag J.B. Metzer, München, 1986, 1346.
 * 2) B. Baranyai, Zsigmond király ú. n. Sárkány-rendje, Századok LIX-LX, 1925-1926, 561-591, 681-719.

Forget about Cilli?
The founding twenty-four members were inducted in 1408 and including also Herman and Friderik of Celje, who were listed on the top of the list.

SOURCES!
The article is adequately good, but there needs to be more rigorous documentation and reference to reliable sources. Very little reliable information in the Anglophone world is available concerning the Order of the Dragon... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.149.141.228 (talk) 18:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

I highly recommend Stoyanov's history of the Eurasian Dualisms and my own analysis of the proto-culture of northern Eurasia. Dr. Colleen Clements

The bit in the first section about Stoyanov and Clements is good, but it seems like it warrants its own section. Also, there is no clear indication of a source (who's Clements, who's Stoyanov, what are the book titles?). Whoever knows, can you please separate that into a new section, and give clearer indication of the sources? Thamis 10:55, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Iced Earth
Not sure that it would be relevant enough but there is a direct reference to "The order of the dragon" in the Iced Earth song 'Dracula' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.245.157.122 (talk) 10:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

I'd definitely say it's not relevant, the order of the dragon surfaces in any and all vampire lore post Bram Stoker. 210.49.15.52 (talk) 07:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't most wiki article about historical persons or organizations have a "In Pop culture" section. I understand it would be huge, but still, its becoming relevant because with it being mentioned in TV series people are going to start googling it based on that and end up on this article 72.53.101.104 (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC) Some guy

THIS ACCOUNT LACKS CITATION/NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED (GRAMMAR)
This work has a surprising litany of actual citations to academic, primary sources, historical texts and references etc. that anyone could expect. The critic is simply wrong about lacking citations and grammar. The fact remains that the main point of the book is that proof of previous beliefs and belief structures or accounts have been oblivated from religious (monotheistic burnings etc.( and hidden from all of us. Exceptions being the Nag Hamadi texts in Ethiopa and the records in Eurasia etc.. Far from the destructive hands of the "modern" religious leaders!

THE ORDER OF THE DEFEATED DRAGON not just the order of the dragon.

I have made certain corrections on this artical firstly the 0rder was not created in 1408 but 1418 please see page 181 of the chivalry book ORDERS OF KNIGHTHOOD AWARDS AND THE HOLY SEE by Peter Bander van Duren, there have been many mistakes on the orgin and history of this order, it would be common sense of the writer of this artical to first verify the orgin of the order its true date and why it was created, it would be a bit strange if the sovereign lords who were the orders first members joined to protect the royal family of hungary? not a sensible reason for the time! The true history is as folllws the Order of the Defeated Dragon was formally established in the year 1418 by Sigismund King of Hungary, after the Council of Constance, to defend the Church against the heretics, especially the Hussites. The defeated dragon is a symbol of the destruction of heresy. The Order flourished in Germany, and Italy. the order is not a order of the kingdom of hungary but the holy roman empire please note the aforementioned information.

This is also not accurate. The Order of the Dragon is a Bosnian and Eastern European military organization, most likely linked to the Bosnian Ecclesiae "heresies." The mother church for this ancient and classic cosmology, metaphysics and religion was the Ecclesia Drugunthiae (see Y. Stoyanov, The Other God; and C.D. Clements, The Order of the Dragon). Sigismund was an Angevin noble who became King of Hungary in his bid to become Holy Roman Emperor (see Stoyanov, Clements, and W. Urban). Sigismund wished to use the Order as it was impossible for him to use the Teutonic Knights who had made a power grab with the blessing of the Pope for Romania. Prince Bela of Hungary was not about to allow his lands in Romania/Transylvania to be taken by the Teutonic Knights and drove them out. So there was very bad blood between the Teutonic Knights and the Order of the Dragon as competitors. When the Dragon League of Culm abandoned the Teutonic Knights against the pagan Lithuanians at the battle of Tannenberg, that escalated and partly explains the propaganda pamphlets against the Basarab Princes, Vlad II and Vlad III, who were members of the Order of the Dragon (see Clements and Urban). Also, the pin of the Order is not a defeated dragon, but a dragon with a sun sign cross and the blood-red and white colors of George. Again, Count Hrovje Vukcic specifically stated the Order was a "pagan rite" and as a Patarene/Bogomil, he was a "heretic" himself. This Great Heresy was spread throughout Eastern Europe, Italy, and the Languedoc, and supported by King Alfonse of Spain. Sigismund, with royal ties to the Languedoc, was engaged in European politics.

Dr. Colleen Clements (Dr. Clements is not a real doctor, for a real expert would add citation to their work.)

Get real sources, stop going for the sensational "Its the Devil!" thing and turn off caplocks.

This is especially offensive and shows your true inability to engage in professional and logical dicourse! Have you even heard of the argumentum ad hominem or ad hominem attack? It appears not. The validity of the argument is not linked to the person. Can you critique the claims? The basic premis? Besides, have you checked her degrees? Degrees of sources she used? etc. You may be surprised and humbled at the same time. Of course, I am not advocating an ad populum approval! It actually is irrelavant.

right...Well, unless you can give a source for that lovely wall of text...67.60.244.249 (talk) 17:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Thomas de Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk (after 1439)
This must be wrong! In 1439 the Duke of Norfolk was John de Mowbray, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, and not Thomas Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk, 3rd Earl of Norfolk (1365-1399) (dukedom forfeit 1399) or Thomas Mowbray, 4th Earl of Norfolk (1385-1405). What is the correct one? The Ogre 15:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thomas was dead 3 years before the Order when founded, at least. Furthermore I don't see any evidence aside from what we say here that any Duke of Norfolk was ever a member. Kind of strange to have an English night and Duke in service to a Holy Roman Emperor at the time period, been a long time since Edward the Confessor and his nephew.

Popular culture
The Elder Scrolls Order of the Dragon has no relation to this Order of the Dragon, it isn't inspired by, based off of or in any way related. Its just a cool name for a group in video which actually has something to do with Dragons, there for it is not a part of the Order of the Dragon in Popular Culture. Also, this article really sucks, you guys need to read the rules sometime. As far as I can see, the only Reference "Credo Mutwa in his book Zulu Shaman references this symbol (snake eating it's tail) as a symbol of immortality." is talking about the Ourobouros and has no relation to this article, unless the Zulu dude says the Zulu Shamans have something to do with a Medieval Mid to Eastern European Military Order. Thats going too. This is not a site for your spiritual awakings or whatever. Oh, even if the Zulu dude does say so, he needs to be a trustworthy source, not some sensationilist new ager. The Cradle of Filth thing is borderline, if its true how hard can it be to find sources about their fan club? The article on them doesn't do anything to prove its true or has any relation to this Order of the Dragon aside from a picture which is said to be based off of the "medieval original", which would imply it is related and not someone just making use of a cool name. Of course with no sources it could just be some stupid fanboy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 09:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Saddles
I am working on a thesis on the saddles mentioned in the artifacts section and will put up more information as I sort it out. RobynRadway (talk) 21:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC) R. Radway

Good job, some work that appears unbiased and might even have sources.

Pagan
Does someone want to explain this? Have have a pagan Knight Order in a Christian (and Catholic) country ruled by a Christian King (who was also the Holy Roman Emperor). It has colours and symbology of St. George, one of the early Christian Saints from one of the first Christian nations. The original edict says on it O Quam Misericors est Deus, Pius et Justus, which says according to my rusty grade 10 latin, somthing about how god is merciful (or miserable?), upright and just. Also, the Lizard Union wasn't pagan and I doubt that Sigismund would with one hand raise them and with the other smack them, so unless theres a larger parent corporation of Slavic Reptilian Orders I think thats just racist profiling of opponents of the Holy Roman Empire. Also, that stuff about the Bosnian Church looks made up, the Bosnian Church according to the article on it, did not use Ecclesia Sclavonica and never mentions this Voivode Hrovje Vukcic (which probably means the Hrvoje Vukčić) that article never says anything about him being a member, infact it says he was at war against Sigismund in the 1390, a full 20 years before the Order was founded. Given all of this, I'm doing a little cleaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 02:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC) Alright, so I've cut out it being called pagan, opionated descriptions of the meaning of the symbols, unrelated references to dragon stuffes in Armenia, removed mention of Sigismund's wife who had nothing to do with the Order (thats like saying Barbara Bush helped with Desert Storm, relieving stress of the creator does not count as being a co-creator). Removed the Two Principals, what the hell are they?

Original research
Part about symbols may contain original research and/or unverified claim about some fresco in Italy, link with the Order is unclear. Yopie 21:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How do we know that the coins Vladd II minted specifically referenced the Order? Except that he was in the Order and minted coins with a dragon on them. Therefore the motif of the dragon on coins is worth mentioning for someone that is referenced as being in the Order. That point of a dragon in the Fresco is the same. The artist also chose to use a dragon in a puzzling way on the fresco. This is not original research, the author wrote about the puzzling dragon being there. You know what- since you are so hung up on that point, I will remove it just to make you happy- but what you get is less and less information available for people.  65.141.156.164 (talk) 15:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with you as part was removed. Yopie 15:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)   Yopie (talk • contribs)


 * No problem

We don't need to provide info that is unrelated or only related in the vaguest ways. So theres a puzzling dragon in a fresco, if its puzzling its doubtful it has a meaninful connection and that connection needs to be established by a reliable source. Everything to do with dragons in the 15th century is not related or relevent to the Order of the Dragon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 05:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Millosh Obiliqi?!
Seriously now though,I know that Albania might not be a country that has made neither the Europian history nor the Balkanian one, but it's really a shame that those few heroes we have you make them Serbian. In all the books I've read about the Balkanic Middle ages the one to kill the Sultan in the battle of Kosovo Fields has been an Albanian nobleman named Millosh Obiliqi. If anyone has any dociuments against this I'll show him the opposite.His real name according to the Turkish war-chronists was Millosh Kopili. Now according to the Serbian language Kopilic means "Son of a Bastard" while Kopili in Albanian means young guy or skilled and smart boy. And that is why in the Albanian war chronicles he was often called "Millosh Djali" ( Millosh Dude ).Nicholson1989;talk —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC).


 * The section is absolutely wanting, as it cites no sources except for one unreliable webpage (In fact, it has been deleted before for that very reason, but it keeps coming up somehow). The lack of sources would not necessarily have been a problem if the article for Miloš Obilić was adequately referenced and all, but seeing as it isn't... Anyway, the issue you're raising does not belong here, but should be redirected to the actual page for Miloš Obilić. For what it's worth, The Late Medieval Balkans by John V. A. Fine, pp. 409-10, cites the history of the Slavs by Orbin(i) (c. 1601), who says that Miloš Obilić (or Kobilić) was a Serbian warrior from Tijentište. Hope that helps. If you have any reliable sources which dispute this, feel free to add them there. Cavila (talk) 20:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Alright,Cavila,sorry to write it here. I'll put the whole discussion on the Millosh page. I found a study about his name,the one I have written shortly here. Hopefully I can get all that study in an pdf format and put it here so convince everyone about the real nationality and origin of this man. Actually once we're talking for him,according to what I've read about him the "brave noble warrior" was in fact a great actor as he faked to be dead and then went and stabbed Sultan. I'll try to find something about that too. Btw,are you a Serbian? Nicholson1989;talk —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC).

Does it matter? What if he is Serbian? Then you can just go and kill him, thus ending the whole debate? BTW I'm not Serbian but I am an expert on Balkan Medieval History. Although there are several different versions of the event, all the sources agree that the man who killed the Sultan at Kosovo was a Serb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.194.83.43 (talk) 12:23, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Removed Vlad III
I have removed Vlad III the Impaler from the list of members of the Order. He referred to himself as Dragwlya, i.e. "the Son of a Dragon", not Dracul. His father was a Dragon. Besides, Vlad III was born in 1431, he would have been six years old when the order stopped inducting members in 1437.--Doug.(talk • contribs) 09:53, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

"Foundation and purpose" opening sentence is unclear, ungrammatical, and ambiguous in what it is trying to say:
"On December 12, 1408, following the Battle of Dobor[5][6][7] in which he slaughtered most of Bosnia's nobility, many of whom had fought the Turks; [8] Sigismund and his queen, Barbara of Celje, founded the league known today as the Order of the Dragon."

So, does that mean he killed people that fought the Turks, then he himself created an order to fight the Turks? Just someone please fix the sentence.Jimhoward72 (talk) 13:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE ORDER
Member of the Order of Dragon was also Bohemian nobelman Čeněk z Vartemberka (english wiki here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cen%C4%9Bk_of_Wartenberg ), Sigismund made him a member of the Order in 1419 to make him his ally in Hussits wars. What more, Čeněk z Vartemberka gives the dragon from Orders emblem into his coat of arm (as it is shown here on czech page about Vartenberg family http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vartenberkov%C3%A9 ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.85.75.177 (talk) 13:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

The Order in Bulgaria?
"... after the Fall of Constantinople of 1453, it [the Order] continued to play a role in Hungary, Bulgaria, Wallachia and Serbia, which bore the brunt of the Ottoman incursions."

This cannot be true especially about Bulgaria which was conquered by the Ottomans much before 1453: the capital Tarnovo was taken by Ottoman forces in 1393, the regional center Vidin in 1396, right after the battle of Nicopolis. And Nicopolis itself was the last fortress of Bulgarian Tzar Ivan Shishman after the fall of Tarnovo. Shishman was executed by order of Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I in 1395, even before the battle. Shisman's son Fruzhin led an anti-Ottoman rebellion in Bulgaria in 1408-1413, during the Ottoman civil war that followed the capture of Bayezid by Timur Leng. Fruzhin lived long enough to participate in the 1444 battle of Varna. In 1413-1444 Fruzhin was in Serbia and Hungary and was in favour with Hungarian kings. But was he a member of the Order? There's no such information in German, Hungarian, Serbian, Bulgarian or other sources. So, the Order of the Dragon has no special importance for Bulgaria and I will remove the name of that country from the phrase quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glishev (talk • contribs) 19:22, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Glishev (talk) 15:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Glishev i am surprise from your ignorance on that the period of Bulgarian history .I was thinking that atleest as part of bulgarian forum of Nauka.bg you have learn something .... . The bulgarian tsardom fainally fall in 1422 after the death of Konstantin II Sracimir ho was on a visit in Belgrade to Lazarevic .The furst time ottomans ocupie Vidin was around 1430 .There was no rebelion in 1408-1413 but a new part of bulgaro-ottoman war .Fruzhin became part of Sigismund court and made career under his patronage. There is no information about him beeing in Serbia ! And make difrens between bulgarin lands and bulgarian states ! Wallachia for example is bulgarian state dispite that hure population is not only bulgarians but also proto-romanians ( romanise thracian ), cuman desendents ,germans,magyars,rutenians and even some greeks and italins. One advice - when you don't understant some period just don't touch ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vitqz (talk • contribs) 10:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

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