Talk:Order of the Elephant

Untitled
The original article was split into Order of the Dannebrog and Order of the Elephant. The following from talk:Order of the Dannebrog applies to this article.

Wrong picture
Order of the Elephant (heraldry).svg

The above picture is wrong. there should be 20 tower and 20 elephants in the chain.

Why?
Why they use an elephant?


 * The elephant was seen as a very noble animal. It was interpreted as a symbol for champions of Christianity, and as a symbol of chastity and purity. It is also a hardworking animal. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 13:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This needs to be explained, with citation, in the article. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 12:18, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The order uses the insignia of the older danish "Order of the Mother of God" (1474 A.D.) (Guds Moders Selskab). This order is believed to be inspired by the Order of the Swan of Brandenburg.

Dacia/Dania
Denmark is Dania in Latin. But I can see that several other pages repeat the assertion that D stands for Dacia. As far as I could find Dacia is Latin for a territory in Romania. But it is possible, that a medieval dialect of Latin named Denmark Dacia, so please correct it, if I am wrong.

Rasmus (talk) 08:00, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

In old Latin, Dacia can also mean Denmark. Look at Dacia (disambiguation) --Arigato1 18:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio?
The page seems to borrow very heavily from http://www.denmarkemb.org/chivalry.html. It does not look like the usual copyvio, though. So I thought I would ask on the page first. Do we have permission to use this text? It is marked as © Copyright 2002 Royal Danish Embassy and GlobeScope, Inc..

Rasmus (talk) 08:00, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The text mentioned above is now located at http://www.ambwashington.um.dk/en/menu/InformationaboutDenmark/Culture/DanishNationalSymbols/The+Danish+Orders+of+Chivalry/ . If I still don't get any responses, I am afraid we need to remove the text. It is a shame, since quite a few people seems to have made an effort to improve it. Rasmus (talk) 11:25, 15 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Couldn't it be the description is the one literally given by the law or ordinance regulating the order? Then it could be mentioned as a literal citation from that official description and that would be perfectly alright.--MWAK 07:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, since those laws are probably in Danish, it would have to have been independently translated into the exact same English text. Not impossible, but highly improbable. I have written a note to User:Peter Ellis, who seem to be the original contributor. Rasmus (talk) 10:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * You're right: I had forgotten the translation would be covered by copyright also. :o)--MWAK 11:10, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Hello, all, especially Rasmus. I've returned from a trip to find the message to me. I can not recall where I got the detail of the original page(s) but I am someone who is a checker of copyright. So, I can only assume that there was a copy to where I got the text. Even then, I recall modifying rather than just 'lifting'. I apologise if this gets the page removed. Surely, there must be a way of making the text 'sublime' -- to edit it to make it 'rise above' the copy on the Danish Embassy page. Allow me to give some more background: My interest grew from seeing the Danish royalty wearing the curious Elephant devices on the blue ribands, during the wedding of Mary to Frederik, (she is an Australian like I am) and I went looking for detail here and found none; so, I created it. Someone please 'save' the work for me; preferably a Dane (Rasmus?) who can get better original material and detail. Thanks, Peter Ellis 18:56, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Mr.
Someone who is a knight (perhaps with a very few exceptions, though this is not one of them) cannot be a "Mr." except he was preceding the knighthood. This should be revised. --Daniel C. Boyer 00:45, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting image
I found this quite interesting. The Norwegian coa on it's own with the orders of the elephant and dannebrog. It lets the thoughts wander on the structure of the Oldenburg state. Is this indicative of the orders being regarded as Norwegian just as much as Danish? Or is it a sign that they were the personal "property" of the king, and not really connected to any of his countries? Inge 17:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * According to Salmonsens Konversationsleksikon, Christian I introduced an order of some sort and used it in both Denmark, Norway and Sweden as early as 1457 (in all likelihood connected to the Order of the Elephant). See also (bottom paragraph) which notes that Christian established a chapel for his order in Roskilde Cathedral in 1464. But I agree that the image is unusual. I've seen the Norwegian Lion "on its own" before, but not surrounded by the colors. My hunch would be that the orders were symbols of royal authority, so in that respect, they would be as much Norwegian as Danish. When the Order of the Elephant was introduced, Denmark and Norway had already been united for more than 50 years. When the Order of the Dannebrog was introduced, this situation had lasted for 300 years. The Oldenburg state was an collection of kingdoms, dukedoms and counties and colonies that all belonging to the same ruler, so it would make sense that the same decorations were used in both Denmark, Norway and Holstein. Danish history must be full of Holsteiners carrying the same decorations as Danes. On the other hand, the royal orders would be less widely seen in Norway given that Norway had next to no nobility (well,  Danneskiold-Laurvigen and possibly a few others). If the orders operated independently of the components of the union, this would explain why we have an image of a herald wearing a tabard showing only the royal orders (an officer of arms from Ordenskapitlet). Alas, I don't know for how long Danish heralds wore tabards showing the three lions. The tabard shown here was also used by a herald during the coronation of king Christian VIII. Valentinian T / C 22:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Revocation
Nicolae Ceaucescu is not the only one whose Order of the Elephant was revoked. It happened to Prince Vasili Vladimirovich Dolgorukov (knighted in 1713) in 1719 and to Vasily Lukich Dolgorukov (knighted 1726) in 1732. Both appear in this book (in German): Der Elephanten-Orden und seine Ritter... --Urbandweller (talk) 00:29, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think I can confirm this. On page 85, recipient #186 (Basilius, Prinz von Dolgorukki):  "fiel 1718 in Ungnade, Orden zurückgeliefert den 6ten März 1719" (fell into disfavour in 1718, order returned on 6 March 1719).  And on page 88, recipient #202 (Basilius, Fürst von Dolgorukki):  "Der Orden ward unterm 7ten März 1732 eingeliefert, nachdem der Fürst in Ungnade gefallen war" (the order was turned in on 7 March 1732, after the count had fallen into disfavour).  So, Nicolae Ceauşescu definitely was not the only recipient of the award to have it revoked; he was one of at least three.   Rich wales (talk · contribs) 06:49, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

who awards it?
who awards membership in the order? Is is the monarch alone, or the monarch on the advise of his government? is there a limit to membership? 98.206.155.53 (talk) 19:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The royal orders are officially a prerogative of the monarch, i.e. the monarch is sole judge over who will receive the Order of the Elephant and the Order of the Dannebrog. It is however, not completely clear whether this is completely the case regarding the Order of the Dannebrog. Shortly before the 2011 protests in Bahrain, the Queen had been on an official visit and - per standard diplomatic protocol - awarded the local king with the Order of the Dannebrog. In hindsight, this was critised by a number of politicians when the king of Bahrain later cracked down on local protesters. Opposition politicians claimed that the order in question had been awarded by the Queen after a request by the government and foreign office, while the government stated that decisions concerning the orders fell within the royal prerogative, and the Palace didn't comment on the matter. In the case of the Order of the Elephant, however, this particular order is so exclusive that it undisputedly falls within the prerogative of the monarch. Lars Stevnsborg's "Kongeriget Danmarks ordner, medaljer og hæderstegn" (Orders, medals and decorations of the Kingdom of Denmark)(2005) mentions that Frederick IX awarded the Order of the Elephant 50 times during his reign (1947-1972) and that it is "currently awarded to Danish princes and princesses on reaching their 18th birthday. Persons who receive the title as prince or princess due to marriage receives the order following the marriage [...]. In addition, it is awarded to the heads of reigning royal families, often at a state visit, but it is also frequent that only the crown prince of any foreign dynasty will be awarded with the order. It is also awarded due to state visits where a head of state receives the order [i.e. referring to non-royal heads of state]. Completely exceptional, it may be awarded for extremely excellent merit [Endelig kan den helt ekstraordinært tildeles for særdeles udmærket fortjeneste ...]. Mærsk McKinney Møller was awarded the order, but remains the only commoner to receive the order in more than 50 years." [Field Marshall Montgomery received it in 1945, Niels Bohr in 1947 and Winston Churchill received it in 1950]. (page 47-48, loose translation, see also p. 214). There is no official maximum for the number of receipients. 89.150.160.26 (talk) 21:47, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

European royal recipients
The reigning and non-reigning sovereigns and their heirs and consorts are listed as 'HM The King of ....' 'HM The Queen of ....'  'HRH The Prince of .....' etc. The exception to this is The Queen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. She is referred on the recipient list as 'HM Queen Elizabeth II of The Commonwealth Realms.' Other than her reign being one of the longest, among other sovereigns she is among equals and does not need to be differentiated in any way. Her name should not be included along with her title and territorial designation. Her entry on this list should be corrected to 'HM The Queen of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.'
 * Actually as far as I can see we don't do honorifics in Wikipedia. The HMs and HRHs need to be removed from all the persons it is applied to in the article. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:06, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

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Total Number of Knights
What is the total number of knights inducted into the order since its inception? I understand the Danish Wikipedia has a complete list of both living and deceased knights, but it is not numbered like the list of Knights and Ladies of the Garter for example.2804:14C:165:8EC3:D010:151D:B753:86CC (talk) 00:32, 8 April 2021 (UTC)