Talk:Order of the Netherlands Lion

Order of the Netherlands Lion
User:64.110.106.9 replaced all instances of Order of the Dutch Lion with Order of the Netherlands Lion. Now I'm neutral to this change, but it is a move request, since the name of the article is still Order of the Dutch Lion. If any one feels strongly about this change I propose he requests the change. -- C mon 18:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * "Netherlands Lion" is simply very poor English; it then should become "Netherlandish Lion" which sounds inane :o).--MWAK 07:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not about what sounds good in English, the official name is "Order of the Netherlands Lion". I think it should be moved to the Order of the Netherlands lion. I think Wikipedia are the only people who call it the Dutch Lion. Woodym555 21:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Netherlands Lion" is is not simply very poor English, it is correct English. Moreover, Order of the Netherlands Lion is the correct name of the order, see the official website of the Chancellery of the Netherlands Orders:. The name "Order of the Dutch Lion" is simply wrong; usage of denomination "Dutch" in these situations is an incorrect and common (annoying) made error ('Dutch' refers to a language or culture, e.g. a Fleming is also Dutch. Netherlands refers to a country). I have changed the title name. Demophon (talk) 06:34, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Humph, this had fallen off my watchlist. I was going to change it as well. I agree completely with the change. Woody (talk) 10:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, if the Chancellary likes to call it this way...But it is still poor English :o) — and "Dutch" obviously functions as an adjective meaning "of the Netherlands". That Flemings are Dutch will surprise many of them ;o).--MWAK (talk) 06:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Dutch may refer to "the Netherlands", however this is informal and strictly taken not correct. The same as people sometimes say "I'm from Holland", in which they mean from the Netherlands (but Holland is only a province in the western part of the Netherlands). Dutch may refer to the Dutch language: in Flanders (the northern half of Belgium) they certainty also speak 'Dutch'. Dutch may also refer to Dutch as ethnic group. In this case it's debatable whether the Flemings are also Dutch. Some say this is indeed the case, others deny this. Nevertheless, the Dutch as ethnic group are more than only the Netherlands, they live in other parts of the world too, like South Africa (the Afrikaners).
 * So, the Order of the Netherlands Lion is only an Order of knighthood of the Netherlands not an order in the whole Dutch world, and definitely not an order for Dutch speaking people.
 * And again, "Netherlands Lion" is not poor English, it is the correct English. Other examples are: Netherlands Antilles, Royal Netherlands Football Association, Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences, Royal Netherlands Navy, etc. etc. So conclusion: if you refer to Dutch as a language or culture, than you are correct. If you refer with Dutch to the country the Netherlands or a institution from the Netherlands, than you are wrong. The latter is poor use of English ;) Demophon (talk) 08:23, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I would say that the names of all these examples are equally poor :o) (even though such constructions obviously have existed for a long time) — and, let us be fair, names made up by Dutch institutions who were simply trying to avoid the ambiguity of "Dutch" or the unfamiliarity of "Netherlandish". "Dutch" is in these instances not poor English — but might be factually imprecise.--MWAK (talk) 10:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Members
List of members might be included (or in a separate article?). --Daniel C. Boyer 16:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Translation
The French translation given means "The order of the Belgian lion" - I'm fairly sure that can't be correct, but I know those countries have an involved history and it's just possible I'm mistaken. Dutch people, can you comment? zadcat (talk) 19:51, 24 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The article on the French wiki is Ordre du Lion néerlandais. As Belgium was once part of the Netherlands, that might be where that comes from. EricSerge (talk) 20:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * From the Dutch Wiki article : "When the order was established the Kingdom of the Netherlands was bilingual. In the French version of the law the order is called the "Ordre du Lion Belgique" or "Order of the Lion of Belgium". This French term expired later because after 1830 the kingdom was no longer bilingual. The French term in the literature on phaleristics led to misconceptions." EricSerge (talk) 20:36, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The lion, used in the Low Countries in the coat of arms, etcetera, was named in Latin Leo Belgicus since the 16th century. Translated to French this is Lion Belgique. The name "Belgica" always referred to the entire Low Countries. In a lot of topographic maps the Dutch Republic is shown with the Latin title "Belgium Foederatum". The name of the Order refers to this 'Leo Belgicus'. But after the division of the Low Countries into a southern and a northern half, the name Belgicus is now purely reserved and associated with the state and its name, Belgium. Netherlands Lion / Nederlandse Leeuw is a modern invention, and the name "Order of the Netherlands Lion" is now the official usage. Mr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 05:15, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Why is "Nederlandse Leeuw" wrongly translated with "Netherlands Lion", and why only in English, and not in other languages ("Dutch" and "Nederlands" are adjectives while "Netherlands" and "Nederland" are nouns)? "Dutch Lion" should be the right translation. Hans Kamp (talk) 17:45, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It isn't. See earlier talk above. In diplomatic and state usage the word Dutch isn't used. Compare Netherlands Antilles, Royal Netherlands Navy etc. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 12:56, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I've made an RfC below. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 14:35, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Dutch Lion
Do not change the article name to "Order of the Dutch Lion". The word Dutch is not used in the official English translation, see discussion above and also see these pending requests Gerard von Hebel (talk) 12:52, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

RfC, Name of the article
What should the name of this article be:
 * Order of the Netherlands Lion
 * Order of the Dutch Lion Gerard von Hebel (talk) 14:18, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: “Dutch Lion” is of course the literal translation, but it has no standing as an official translation in diplomatic use, which seems important in a category like this. Generally and also historically the word “Dutch”  is avoided by the Dutch government as an official English translation for state and diplomatic purposes.  See Royal Netherlands Navy, "His Netherlands Majesty's ship",Netherlands Antilles, Netherlands New Guinea. |The Netherlands Embassy, etc. See also this past discussion on the talkpage of the article. The translation “Order of the Netherlands Lion” has similarly been in use for this order of knighthood historically. A few examples of this wording (official and otherwise) can be found here, here,  here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. There seem to be a lot of sources for the official use of the term “Netherlands Lion”, while “Dutch Lion” seems to be thin on the ground where official use is concerned, an aspect that again is of some importance to this matter. Alternately the term “Order of the Lion of the Netherlands” has been in use recently. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 14:19, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The deeper problem is that the lion in the Coat of arms of the Netherlands is not particularly "Dutch". It is really a combination of the old Leo Belgicus (not limited to ethnically Dutch areas) with that of the arms of Nassau (in present Germany). And of course there are number of other "Dutch" lions: those of Flanders, Brabant and Holland e.g. So there are good reasons for the Dutch themselves to translate it as Netherlands Lion. The adjective "Dutch" also lacks a certain formality.--MWAK (talk) 15:47, 28 June 2016 (UTC)


 * And as regards the question of the correctness of the translation: "Netherlands Lion" is awkward but constructions like these are very old. In 17th century texts it is very common to refer to the "Holland fleet".--MWAK (talk) 16:01, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I know it's quaint language, but it's been in use for ages and the article stood at that name for about eight years now. The origin of the lion supposedly comes from the arms of all fiefdoms that formerly were part of the Duchy of Lower-Lotharingia, which indeed also included parts of the German Rhineland, but I suppose the reason for the language involved is the Dutch awkwardness with the word "Dutch"... Gerard von Hebel (talk) 17:56, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I realize that we try to balance the current, "politically correct" usage with actual usage, but "Order of the Netherlands Lion" does sound very awkward to me, and "Dutch Lion" is the translation I have been accustomed to until very recently and would use verbally and in writing. The problem stems from the fact that "Netherlands" isn't an adjective in English and the correct adjective, "Netherlandic" looks so strange and is so awkward to pronounce for American English speakers (like "Luxembourgish") that I have read it rarely and never heard it spoken aloud. Don't know what to recommend. FactStraight (talk) 21:40, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a matter of "politically correct" usage, but rather a matter of what was used historically in diplomatic circles. "Netherlandic" is of course strange and has never been used officially. I'm afraid it's not a matter of language, but rather a matter of established diplomatic usage that has stood not only in this matter, but in many others, as I've stated above. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 21:59, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I would say that the arguments for Order of the Netherlands Lion are stronger. Chicbyaccident (talk) 12:01, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The official website of the Dutch Royal House refers to the order as "Order of the Lion of the Netherlands", as does this guide (p. 7).--JorisEnter (talk) 16:57, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I've heard that used as well. It seems to be a rather recent development. The official website of the Chancellery of the Netherlands Orders called it "Netherlands Lion", but I'm not sure that page is online anymore. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 17:33, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Translating "Nederlandse Leeuw" as "Lion of the Netherlands" is a bit odd if you'd ask me, but whatever. The current version of lintjes.nl does not appear to have an English version, but indeed its older English version referred to the order as "Netherlands Lion".--JorisEnter (talk) 21:25, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * So it seems indeed, JorisEnter, I do think that you added a worthwhile argument. I know that the present RfC is limited, but I do believe, to be fair, the information you provided should be taken into consideration. I do understand why you would find the translation "Lion of the Netherlands" odd. It wasn't used historically and it also doesn't depict an adjective followed by a verb, as it is in Dutch. The description, "Order of the Lion of the Netherlands" is sometimes used, but most historical references are to an other name. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 11:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Hello, Ser Amantio di Nicolao, Hans Kamp, EricSerge, Mr. D. E. Mophon, zadcat, C mon, Woodym555, Demophon, Woody, Nyttend, MWAK, FactStraight, User:DrKay, Chicbyaccident, and JorisEnter. All of you have commented on this RfC or were somehow involved in this matter in the past. In a few days this RfC is coming to it’s natural end, as it’s been going on for almost a month now, while no entries have been made since the 30th of June. For the record I would like to inform you about that. Also, when this thing is settled, I would like to go on with filing a second request to rename the relevant categories, which still stand at “Ducth Lion”. Unless anyone complains I will await the closure of this RfC to do that. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 22:08, 24 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Based on the discussion above and what reliable sources tell us, I still believe the right thing to do is leave this at Order of the Netherlands Lion. As there is not a firm consensus to move it to Order of the Dutch Lion, it does not move. EricSerge (talk) 22:17, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment who knows what will happen but the WP:COMMONNAME may change to the Order of the Lion of the Netherlands since that is what the current government publications are calling it now. However, a quick Google search reveals that this translation has a long history as well: . Dutch Lion goes way back, but is less common:, and Netherlands Lion is by far the most common: . EricSerge (talk) 22:20, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Better to rely on the name mentioned on its website. Chicbyaccident (talk) 05:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The name "Order of the Dutch Lion" is simply wrong as discussed above and as explained in earlier discussions, see and . To me, both the "Netherlands Lion", or the now popping up "Lion of the Netherlands" are correct, but it's just a matter of semantics which one. Since there is no firm consensus, I would like keep the article title as it is now. Maybe we could put into the introduction the sentence "The Order of the Netherlands Lion, also referred to as the Order of the Lion of the Netherlands"..... Dr. D. E. Mophon (talk) 11:57, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment "Order of the Lion of the Netherlands" is an acceptable compromise between correct English, "Dutch Lion", and politically correct usage, "Netherlands Lion". FactStraight (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I like Dr. D. E. Mophon's suggestion. I have the impression that the use of "Lion of the Netherlands" is a fairly recent development. For the time being we could mention it's usage in the opening sentence of the article, while leaving the title as it is for now, with the more literal and "archaic" form. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Cunard, This is the second time that this page will be moved the wrong way around then! No move is necessary. The page is already at the right title. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 12:03, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: I've added this to Requested moves so an WP:RM closer will review it. Cunard (talk) 06:01, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

"Selected recipients"
I propose removing this entire section, as it is essentially a duplication of Category:Knights of the Order of the Netherlands Lion and Category:Commanders of the Order of the Netherlands Lion (Category:Knights Grand Cross of the Order of the Netherlands Lion does not exist). A similar section was removed from the page on the Order of Orange-Nassau several years ago for similar reasons.--JorisEnter (talk) 13:17, 21 September 2016 (UTC)