Talk:Order of the Rising Sun

Old Order of the Rising Sun page
Has been merged in as far as possible. There ia a diasagreement on date  ... established in April 1875? Rich Farmbrough 11:21, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC) --- I added the name of Prof. Dr. Willy Vande Walle

Paulownia
Seems like the Paulownia thing should be separate from the Rising Sun thing, judging by this: http://www8.cao.go.jp/intro/kunsho/eiyaku.html and also the Japanese version of Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.212.252.110 (talk) 02:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

Persons qualified for award
In the header of the article it is stated that before 1981 only Japanese males were qualified to receive the order. However, from the list of recipients it is clear that many foreign men received the order before 1981. Who can clarify this? I do not read Japanese. Michel Doortmont (talk) 12:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It may be awarded for civil or military merit Non-Japanese were first awarded The Order of the Rising Sun in 1981, and women became eligible for the award in 2003. --Tenmei (talk) 17:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Status: pending needed support/citation?
The following were added without any in-line citation support; and a cursory Google serch doesn't immediately resolve any uncertainty. Until more is known, the names are probably best posted here:
 * Yoshimaru Abe --Tenmei (talk) 15:25, 9 January 2009 MOVED, see below
 * Red. prof. dr. Andrej Bekeš, 2008 --Tenmei (talk) 15:54, 26 January 2009 MOVED, see below
 * William D. Crowder (1952- ), Commander, US Seventh Fleet 2006-08. It is entirely possible that Admiral Crowder was accorded this honor, but WP:V encourages me to ask for citation support. --Tenmei (talk) 17:08, 30 July 2008
 * Alain Ducarme, 2008 --Tenmei (talk) 15:07, 16 December 2008 MOVED, see below
 * Tiia-Ester Loitme (2008). --Tenmei (talk) 00:04, 7 January 2009 MOVED, see below
 * Eiichiro Tomiyama --Tenmei (talk) 15:25, 9 January 2009 MOVED, see below

Paulownia for C.G.E. Mannerheim
Not sure about this, but as for my information Finnish Marshal C.G.E. Mannerheim has also recieved this honor, and personaly I think this would be worth to mention cos' he beeing person who got decorations from both sides of WWII. Here is link to the medal for someone to verify Picture and link to offical page (in Finnish) Offical page, medal in no.77. 130.232.134.8 (talk) 19:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

European equivalents?
I have moved the following sub-headings from the article; but of course, they can be re-posted if consensus determines that it is appropriate to do so.
 * 1st Class, Order of the Rising Sun, Grand Cordon (equivalent to the degree of Grand Cordon of a European order)
 * 2nd Class, Order of the Rising Sun, Gold and Silver Star (equivalent to the degree of Grand Officer of a European order)
 * 3rd Class, Order of the Rising Sun, Gold Rays with Neck Ribbon (equivalent to the degree of Commander of a European order)
 * 4th Class, Order of the Rising Sun, Gold Rays with Rosette (equivalent to the degree of Officer of a European order)
 * 5th Class, Order of the Rising Sun, Gold and Silver Rays (equivalent to the degree of Knight of a European Order)
 * 6th Class, Order of the Rising Sun, Silver Rays (equivalent to a Gold Medal in a European order)
 * 7th Class, Green Paulownia Leaves Medal (equivalent to a Silver Medal in a European order)
 * 8th Class, White Paulownia Leaves Medal (equivalent to a Bronze Medal)

Two factors inform my actions:
 * A. There is no specific citation which supports the explanatory notes; and the material would therefore seem to be inconsistent with WP:NOR; and
 * B. The listing of European equivalents implies a Euro-centric perspective which is inconsistent with a Japanese context construed as unique.

It is easy to imagine Aumnamahashiva's rationale in augmenting the sub-headings in this way; and it may well be that others will agree that this was useful. I can see how some might consider this helpful explanatory material as a significant enhancement. Moreover, I would not be surprised if some Meiji period reference source could be cited which would fully justify these explanatory notes in terms of WP:V.

However, even if a credible reference source were cited, I would be inclined to argue in favor of re-positioning this information elsewhere -- perhaps in a sentence or two which explains the historical context. I would argue in opposition to restoring these modified sub-section headings because, it seems to me, in the 21st century, Japanese honors and decorations have evolved somewhat beyond their Meiji genesis.

As a comparison, I might question whether such explanatory notes might seem a little out of place in the sub-headings of articles about the Order of Australia, the Order of New Zealand, or the Order of Canada? In a similar vein, I would be inclined to edit the first paragraph of India's highest military decoration, the Param Vir Chakra (PVC), preferring instead to re-position any mention of equivalents elsewhere in the article. I would have thought that this kind of explanation would belong in any other place except the introductory paragraph -- compare Légion d'honneur.

I would have thought that today's honours and decorations are more accurately construed as orders of merit rather than orders of chivalry? Perhaps an interesting subject for further research would investigate such changes in perception and intention which distinguish the Shōwa honours of the 1930s in contrast with those announced this year? --Tenmei (talk) 14:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Status: notability?
Does it make sense to limit new additions to this list? This thread is a first step in seeking consensus opinion.

Is it appropriate at this stage of the article's development to initiate a standard limiting names on this select list to
 * (a) those who already have Wikipedia articles
 * and
 * (b) those who are notable for something other than being honored with this Imperial decoration -- see, e.g., US Navy Cross edit history?

In a context informed by practices which seem to have worked out well at Navy Cross, all new additions who aren't already featured in an article could be re-redirected to this talk page section with the following edit history explanation:
 * people listed here must have articles on Wikipedia and be notable for something other than receiving this Japanese honor -- see "Status: Notability" on talk page

The names of those recipients whose award is confirmed by a reliable source, but who do not have an article yet are listed below:


 * 1st class, John Whitehead, 2006.


 * 3rd Class, Gold Rays with Neck Ribbon


 * 3rd class, James Auer, 2008.
 * 3rd class, Mahmoud El-Araby, 2009.
 * Carol Gluck, 2006. RESTORED
 * 3rd class, Ryuichi Ishida, 2009
 * 3rd class, William Wright Kelly, 2009


 * 3rd class, George S. Madi
 * 3rd class, Jacob Raz, 2006.
 * 3rd class, Clyde Bowles, 2003
 * 3rd class, Fred George Notehelfer, (2009) --?
 * 3rd class, Judit Vihar, 2009


 * 4th Class, Gold Rays with Rosette


 * 4th class, Aristeides Alafouzos, shipowner (2008)
 * 4th class, Andrej Bekeš, 2008
 * 4th class, Charles B. Doleac, 2011
 * 4th class, Alain Ducarme, 2008
 * 4th class, Rena Rusty Kanokogi, 2009.
 * 4th class, Isfahani Sameen, 2011
 * 4th class, Tiia-Ester Loitme, 2008
 * Asao Hirano RESTORED
 * 4th class, Krystyna Okazaki, Japanology Lecturer (2007).
 * 4th class, Helen Michiyo Nakano, 2009
 * 4th class, Tadashi Tamaki, 2007.
 * 4th class? Teruaki Yamagishi


 * 5th Class, Gold and Silver Rays


 * 5th class, Jun Noguchi (野口 順), 2011
 * 5th class, Shinji Abe, 2009
 * 5th class, Momtazuddin Bhuiyan, 2008.
 * 5th class, Captain Charles Clifton, 1998.
 * 5th class, Rameshchandra Divekar, 2008
 * 5th class, Moazzem Hussain, 2004.
 * 5th class, Francisco Shinichi Miyasaka Machida, 2008
 * 5th class Maki Hiroyuki Miyahara, awarded 2011
 * 5th class, William Moncrief, 2011


 * Unknown class


 * Beasley, William G. (1919-2006).
 * Gerald Curtis RESTORED
 * Emy, Robert Keiji. --?
 * Grundfest, Harry (1982). --?
 * Morley, James William (1984). --?
 * Newton, Denzel


 * Passin, Herbert (1984). --?
 * Bradley M. Richardson
 * Shimaoka Tatsuzo RESTORED
 * Shiroto Ichiro. --?
 * Woolcock, Thomas --?

_________
 * Notes



The names of those with neither confirmation by a reliable source nor an article are listed below:


 * Yoshimaru Abe --?
 * Linevitch, Nikolay (1839-1908) --?
 * Constant George van Mansvelt, 1832–1912 --?


 * Eiichiro Tomiyama --?
 * Mohammed Noreddin Nakshbandi, 2011 --?

In due course, perhaps all or most of these can be restored to the article. --Tenmei (talk) 20:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Clyde Bowles
 * I think it is shortsighted and offensive to include only winners of the award are "notable". Who confirmed this decision?  I am trying to add a co-worker, Clyde Bowles, but it keeps getting deleted because it says he's not notable!  Who gets to make the final decision on this issue? -Myka Held  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.104.243.90 (talk) 15:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


 * A valid question. The nutshell answer is, if they have a biographic article on Wikipedia about themselves, they are notable.  That would mean that they meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines.  While I am sure that your co-worker is a fine individual who has rendered service to Japan, not everyone who is awarded an honour by a government is going to be listed on Wikipedia. EricSerge (talk) 16:55, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


 * When Clyde Bowes was moved from the 3rd Class section of the article, the name was added to the 3rd Class section of the "notability" thread. The name was not deleted; rather, it was moved to this talk page where its potential for further development may be realized. A quick look at the talk pages of other articles about Japanese Orders, Decorations, and Medals will confirm that this has been a conventional editing practice for some years. --Tenmei (talk) 17:44, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


 * You are only awarded the Rising Sun if you have done something notable in your field and for service of Japan. It is nothing like receiving the navy cross in that having been conferred the order makes you "notable". Anyone receiving the Rising Sun is notable, that is why they have been awarded. 27.33.143.93 (talk) 10:04, 26 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey look at me going and adding a bunch without reading all of the discussion page. Oh well!  I think one or two had wikipages ('notable'), most didn't.  I don't really care if they are removed, sorry about that I guess?... Off-topic, the reason I added stuff was an aside to me searching the web trying to figure out if it made sense that Jigoro Kano is listed in two levels of the Order --- anyone know? --dphrag (talk) 06:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Status: verifiability?
Does it make sense to limit new additions to this list? This thread is a first step in seeking consensus opinion.

Is it appropriate at this stage of the article's development to initiate a standard limiting names on this select list to
 * (a) those who already have Wikipedia articles
 * and
 * (b) those whose award of this Japanese honor is also verified by a reliable source citation -- see, e.g., US Navy Cross edit history?

In a context informed by practices which seem to have worked out well at Navy Cross, all new additions who aren't already featured in an article could be re-redirected to this talk page section with the following edit history explanation:
 * the award of this Japanese honor must be confirmed by a reliable source citation -- see "Status: verifiability" on talk page

The names of those with an article, but with no reliable source confirming this honor are listed below:
 * Martha Argerich --?
 * Louis Bols RESTORED 7 Aug 09 with London Gazette citation
 * Fosco Maraini --?
 * Hendrik Pieter Nicolaas Muller (1859-1941) ---?
 * Go Seigen --?
 * Hamengkubuwana IX --?
 * Prince Mikhail Khilkoff (1837-1909). --?
 * Peter Mathias, 2003.
 * Tadamichi Kuribayashi --?
 * Vsevolod Rudnev,(1855-1913), 1907. Restored 12 Aug 11 with citation

This specific problem arose at Order of the Sacred Treasure; and moving the name to the talk page proved to be a workable solution. In due course, the honor was verified and the names were restored to their rightful place in the article lists. --Tenmei (talk) 12:36, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Format
In articles about recipients of this honor, the link in the text has been irregularly specific about the class, e.g.,
 * "... Order of the Rising Sun, first class ...."
 * "... Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun ...."

Japanese government websites appear to have abandoned ordinal numbers in favor of descriptive phrases -- see here. Others seem to have adopted a similar approach -- see here and here.

This is not an issue of right-or-wrong, but in a context established above, I've tweaked each of the articles about the recipients which are currently listed. Is this a step in a constructive direction? A plausible answer to the implied questions about what is best may be something like what was written here, e.g.,
 * "... received the Order of the Rising Sun, Gold Rays with Neck Ribbon, which represents the third highest of eight classes associated with the award." (italics added)

I invite comments and/or discussion which leads to a broader consensus. --Tenmei (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Was the order of the rising sun given to soldiers in combat or for po;iticos onl? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.12.187 (talk) 23:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

The names in the lists of recipients are not formatted in a consistent style. For some, the years of their birth and death are listed, along with the year that they received the award. Others only have the year that they received the award. I vote for removing the birth/death years.Pmsfo (talk) 02:52, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

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I added James E Auer before reading the talk page
I came to the page to see the list of people who had received his award and found him missing. I see that he's a class of award recipients that is being discussed (after I made the add) so I will understand if consistency demands he is removed.

I think he should be added on the grounds that we know which award he got and cite it. And I feel the same about all recipients. It would be nice to be able to come to this page and CTRL-F a name to verify which award they got.

That's my argument. Camoguard (talk) 20:54, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120513035407/http://www.sf.us.emb-japan.go.jp/archives/PR_e/2008/pr_08_1207.htm to http://www.sf.us.emb-japan.go.jp/archives/PR_e/2008/pr_08_1207.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120122083458/http://www.boston.us.emb-japan.go.jp/ENGLISH/WHATS%20NEW/2011Doleac.html to http://www.boston.us.emb-japan.go.jp/ENGLISH/WHATS%20NEW/2011Doleac.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151208230618/http://www.usjf.com/2015/08/2015-members-of-usjf-hall-of-fame/ to http://www.usjf.com/2015/08/2015-members-of-usjf-hall-of-fame

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 03:13, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Where came 2018 Receiver in Article ?
I'm not sure where he will go in article:

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2018/07/21/books/lifetime-devoted-haiku-nets-scottish-poet-prestigious-honor/#.XDWmt_xCcQF --Richard Reinhardt (talk) 07:55, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Adding Admiral Michael Gilday
I'm not sure how to add Admiral Gilday as a recipient of the Grand Cordon of the Order of the Rising Sun, so I figure I'd just give the source and let someone smarter than me figure it out so I don't break the page.

https://www.mod.go.jp/en/article/2023/07/d1cad4e28f585492364b395797fae6e042ff7b70.html DarkBubbleHead (talk) 01:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)