Talk:Organ transplantation in China/Archive 1

This is a valuable section
This is a valuable section that I just stumbled upon while researching Human Rights abuses in China prior to the Beijing Olympics.

It shows corruption of the current regeim and intolerance it has toward groups like Falun Gong.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/falungong2.htm

I hope you keep it, though I think Wikepedia is blocked in China exactly because it posts segments that the Chinese regeim would rather have censored. For that reason, such segments are very valuable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.249.92 (talk • contribs)  04:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge
Discussion in progress here: Articles_for_deletion/Falun_Gong_and_live_organ_harvesting --HappyInGeneral 11:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The AfD above was closed as an inappropriate forum for discussing a page move; but there were some good arguments raised there for renaming Falun Gong and live organ harvesting 'Organ harvesting in China', so I have been WP:BOLD and carried out the move myself. (Previously, Organ harvesting in China was a redirect to Persecution of Falun Gong.) The main reasons for this alternate name are that it's more neutral, less sensationalistic, and also more appropriate - since the article also covers organ harvesting from individuals other than Falun Gong practitioners. If you disagree with this move, please discuss it here. Terraxos 00:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Organ harvesting from live Falun Gong practitioners is a specific topic. Organ harvesting in China is another topic, which may include this issue, but really is much broader. This could be from executed prisoners, etc., whereas the Falun Gong claims are quite specific and not the same thing. I don't think the Organ harvesting in China should be a redirect. It's a related but quite different topic. If there's simply no information on this topic on wikipedia, that would be odd, but it would be for another day to collect and catalogue stuff on that. The Falun Gong evidence I think ought to appear as a subsection in a main article about organ harvesting in China, outlining the topic quickly, but as a daughter article to the Persecution of Falun Gong page and the Organ harvesting in China page. It is not a sensationalistic description--live organ harvesting is essentially the claim. If there is a better way to describe it, let's hear it. Have you seen the report http://organharvestinvestigation.net/? I'll wait till we discuss it and not revert, or you can revert it anytime. --Asdfg12345 01:48, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

just looking at it now, obviously the whole article is falun gong, with a subsection on the general situation in China acting as a kind of introduction/contextualisation to the Falun Gong stuff... I think there should be a "see further: organ harvesting in China" for that subsection.--Asdfg12345 01:51, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I was in favour of a move, and still am. IMHO, the article was far too narrow. It is certainly part of the wider issue: political corruption, central vs local govt, trafficking in human parts, legal issues, medical ethics, government action/ineffectiveness. I believe it can and should be made into a larger topic, where the FG allegations and the K&M reports can also live happily. The article just needs to be considerably fleshed out with reportage about the issue in general, as I have been trying to do. (I have been trying to find stuff about the Harry Wu discovery, but not found anything substantial so far.) Ohconfucius 04:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

in the end though, there will be a sufficiently large body of material specifically on the organ harvesting from living falun gong practitioners that it will warrant being its own article. it doesn't actually bother me where the material is located, in and of itself, but I'd say that for purposes of classification and just bureaucratic/convenience reasons like not having massive articles, it should be afforded its own page. There must be stuff on organ harvesting in China generally, though, like the practice of taking organs from prisoners is well known for a while, and I would have thought this stuff would already be somewhere on the wiki--Asdfg12345 05:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Objectivity
I would like a neutral (and I mean truly neutral) party to look this page over and excise the sections which might be perceived as subjective or biased against either the CPC or Falun Dafa. In the same way I wouldn't want this page to cite Xinhua as fact, I am deeply upset that the article cites Clearwisdom without acknowledging Clearwisdom's own bias. Citing CPC claims without acknowledging the impartiality of the source makes Wikipedia simply another Party mouthpiece; citing Clearwisdom without acknowledging that it's a strongly pro-Falun dafa source is just as bad.

24.141.60.134 06:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

material for this article specifically
For example: http://www.hrw.org/reports/1994/china1/china_948.htm

There would be plenty of stuff like this. Amnesty probably has a report, too. There are probably others with a report on the prisoner situation. Someone just needs to do the research and write the article. This is different from the Falun Gong evidence. I would do this, and might if no one else does, but my priorities are clear.--Asdfg12345 03:24, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

suggest taking out Falun Gong stuff from this article
I think it would be simpler to just remove the mentions of live organ harvesting in this article, or give it two sentences that we can all agree on. That's not what this article is about, really. Sources like the above about would be useful. The fact is there is no organ donor program in China, so all their organ donations are in some way illicit, and as far as I can understand, the majority of the information on organ donations in China either comes from the CCP or human rights groups who say they are killing prisoners or Falun Gong practitioners. Anyway, it's not the focus here so I say take it out except for two sentences. --Asdfg12345 00:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't know how it got there, but I too agree it is out of place in this article. Ohconfucius (talk) 15:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it was our good friend Charles...--Asdfg12345 22:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * your accusation is again proven false. This diff proves I'm not the one who added FLG's accusation:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=215151241&oldid=211208392
 * As to who actually added Epoch Times/FLG accusation, here's the diff that proves it:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organ_harvesting_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=202471146&oldid=202467886
 * Bobby fletcher (talk) 19:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry to wrongfully accuse you.--Asdfg12345 23:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * [Blushes] Ohconfucius (talk) 05:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha!--Asdfg12345 09:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

the title is not consistent with the content
After I read the whole article, I felt death roll prisoners are killed b/c death roll but not just to harvest their organ. This is not organ harvest in the sense no one died for organ transplant.

suggest to revise the title to "Organ harvest from death roll prisoners in China." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.237.159 (talk) 03:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)