Talk:Organization XIII/Archive 1

I know that the entries about (and thus the links to) Vexen and Marluxia do not exist at the moment. It is my intention to create those articles in the near future as soon as possible (i.e., after more thorough research into all of them). Of course, if anyone else would like to go ahead and create them, they're more than welcome to do so. --KairezLightkeeper 18:40, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm just curious, but where did you find the confirmation that Luxord is No10 of the organization? I looked around the internet and I've seen that its likely from a recent magazine, but I'm just wondering about the reliability of translations and the like.

English Terms
Ya OK, it says that his weapon is an axe sword in Japan, but it's a Tomahawk in English. English? As in the language we speak where we live. I'm gonna change it to Tomahawk now, which is what it should be.
 * Yeah, and also, Chain of Memories Jiminey Journal and D Report list Axel's power as Fire in the English version. Changing I go.

Zexion's Element
I've been pondering this for awhile, so I thought I'd bring it up; I feel rather assured that Zexion's "element" or "power" is illusion. No, it does not specifically state this anywhere in Chain of Memories, but it makes sense: To try to defeat Riku, he fabricates a vision of his homeworld, and when trying to defeat him, he momentarily takes on the guise of Sora, something I haven't seen any other member attempt to do. If such diverse elements as Time and Space are utilized, why not Illusion (Which could be seen as the opposite of the Natural world, as controlled by Marluxia)? Regardless, I believe I will update his profile with my well-founded suspicions, but if anyone has any doubts or reason to challenge this, by all means do so. I am only explaining my reasoning for a seemingly unprecidented edit. Nepharski 12:37 PM, 4 March 2006
 * Illusion definitely makes sense for Zexion, but the fact is that no element has been confirmed for Zexion. Putting Illusion or Shadow just counts as speculation, which we can't include. So for now, his element is officially just "unknown". Geg 21:04, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, then. Nepharski 2:28 PM, 4 March 2006
 * It is definitely Illusion or Shadow, even if we don't know which. For what it's worth, Saix was called the "Moon Dancing Demon Man," and his element was Moon. Zexion is the "Shadow Walking Tactician," so Shadow is more probable, I believe (plus, Shadow includes Illusion). 22:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Stop
I'm trying to add background info. to the members, but people keep erasing it, KNOCK IT OFF!! Don't you want to know more about them? What's the point of having an edit button if people keep deleting it. --WindEmperor 06:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * That's because most of it ISN'T TRUE. Things tend to be deleted from Wikipedia if they aren't true. Geg 23:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I know, and that would come into context here if the info. I was presenting WAS false, but it's not so let it stand. --WindEmperor 06:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
 * The additions you made to Xigbar and Saix are pure fanfic crap. The other additions to Xaldin and Luxord are just unneccesary. They all appear at that one scene at Hollow Bastion, but it's not notable unless they actually do something other than stand menacingly. Geg 23:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Roxas and Xigbar DO have tension between them. Anyone who played KH2 would know why. Like say... ME? I can't read Japanese but my friend translated and he said it's there b/c of Xigbars sick twists in seeing Roxas mad.
 * I'm researching that right now. So what about the addition to Saix, then? Geg 23:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well he does appear in Twilight Town first during Roxas' six day trial. It's around the time Roxas starts questioning his existence. He starts to break down and Saix treats Roxas like he should be ashamed of himself, so he picks him up and asks if Roxas can sense his heart(Sora) and Roxas asks who he is. Then Saix unhoods himself, says something along the lines of "An old friend" and then does that thing were he walks backwards into the portal and bids Roxas a final farewell. This is when Axel appears and trys to prevent Roxas from becoming complete.
 * Wow. That never happens. At all. Nice job lying about playing KH2. Geg 23:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * And where does it say it doesn't happen? If you do know what happens, how about posting it so this page can update once and awhile.
 * Everything that happens is posted. The members don't get that much screentime in KH2. Geg 00:06, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Official Update Post
Use this thread to tell non-newbies what is wrong with the Organization XIII page since recent vandalism prevents newcomers to edit it. I'll start:

• I think the members appearing in KH2 could use a little more backstory. I mean, the bios for the CoM members are so much longer. • Demyx controls the "Dancer" Nobodies • Xemnas controls the "Sorcerer" Nobodies • I'm pretty sure Axel controls the "Dusk" and Larxene controls the "Assassin" Nobodies. • http://kh2.co.uk/assets/kh2/artwork/roxas.png Use that for Roxas' picture on the main page. --WindEmperor 08:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Perhaps that's due to Kingdom Hearts II being yet to be released in English? I can't really add more when I haven't even played the game.
 * Are the Nobody<->Organization XIII member associations taken from actual gameplay experience, not speculation?
 * That image isn't consistent with the others; he isn't in uniform. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 02:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Dancers/Sorcerers are controlled by Demyx/Xemnas as a FACT. However, I'm just assume assassin are controlled by Larxene because they look like her weapons.
 * I know he's not in uniform, but the picture is so much clearer and no picture of Roxas in uniform will be official for months!
 * WindEmperor 08:15, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Axel doesn't control the Dusk. He helps Sora defeat a large group of them, and they're still around after Axel's death. Geg 16:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Well... There are eleven types of Nobobies (twelve if you count Marluxia's Spectre and not counting the human-like Nobodies) and only eight living Organization members after the events of Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories... It stands to reason that the additional Nobody types ares still around despite the fact that their corresponding Organization members are no more. Of course, I'm probably wrong somewhere, but... --KairezLightkeeper 01:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

--There was a translation error on Demyx's title. It's supposed to be "Music of the Nocturne." -ninjababe


 * Sorcerors are controled by Xemnas. Snipers are controlled by Xigbar. Dragoons are controlled by Xaldin. Berserkers are controlled by Saix. Assassins are controlled by Axel. Dancers are controlled by Demyx. Gamblers are controlled by Luxord. Samurai are controlled by Roxas. That all comes from the KH2 Ultimania. Dusks, Creepers, and Twilight Zone all appear to be generic enemies not specifically controlled by any of the members.


 * Also, I have never seen any official source indicating the Marluxia's Nobody is called Spectre. Source? I've been trying to find one. WtW-Suzaku 03:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Image Upload
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/2na/roxaspic.jpg

There, post that for Roxas' image in the Organization XIII section. He's not in his Org cloak, but it's a lot clearer than the image we have now.
 * No, thanks. It would be way out of place in this section. Even if there would be picture of Roxas in the Kingdom Hearts II page, it would be the official render, like with every image on this page. Try finding a high-rez version of the current pic instead.Killbrain1 18:42, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

The Enigmatic Man
I've yet to hear confirmation of The Enigmatic Man being No.1 in The Organization. Despite this, I see him listed as No.1. Could somebody provide me with some proof before I go ahead and edit it?


 * That he (or she) is #1 was a theory made up by fans. The article should say so. (my last edit added that bit of info) The Enigmatic Man, in my opinion, deserves his own article or at least a picture. Also, somebody ought to mention the observation made by many fans that the Organization characters clothes were obviously inspired by The Matrix. --Nerd42 03:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * WP:V, Nerd42. Internet speculation is usually too trivial to even consider adding to articles and reeks of WP:WEASEL. The Enigmatic Man also has his own image; the fact that he's sharing it with four other is irrelevant. He did have his own article, but I edited it into a redirect to this article, and rightly so; we have even less information on him than we do on Marluxia and the CoM members, and having them all on one article makes things so much easier for newcomers. --Apostrophe 04:05, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That's not quite true. We have dialouge from Chain of Memories and we have a huge amount of internet speculation about the character. Internet buzz is considered enough in other cases (see All your base are belong to us) to merit inclusion in wikipedia, as long as it is described as such. --Nerd42 22:51, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Should have kept him at number 1 cuz I wuz right :\


 * Do you not understand the concepts of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV? '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 20:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The Enigmatic Man is Xemnas, and is #1. The fight with Xemnas is nearly identical to the one against the Enigmatic Man in Final Mix, he has the same weapons, and is listed as #1 of the Organization XIII in Jiminy's Memo. Case Closed. It's also been confirmed by the Ultimania. But we already knew all this, just a couple days after the game was released.

Quick lesson in reading katakana
Okay, so about Xigbal's name. It's not Xighar. Here's the proof: This is his Japanese name: シグバール (Shigubāru). Xighar would be written as so: シグハー (Shiguhā). Let's look at Xigbal's name character by character.

シ = shi グ = gu バ = ba ル = ru

A few notes first. They use "shi" for the first syllable because there's no "zi" sound in Japanese. Also, "ru" is usually used as an "l" in Japanese. If the name was gonna be "Xigbar", it would just be シグバー (Shigubā). But also notice how there's no "h" sound. Anywhere. The person who wrote "Xighar" into the magazine (if it even is in the magazine) may have gotten the characters for ha, ハ, and ba, バ, confused. It's just a simple typo. The Japanese are not very well known for their skill of the English language, after all. If for some reason you don't believe any of this, just look up katakana. Geg 18:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

urutapu 03:48, 19 March 2006 (UTC)But then there's also the fact that SQUARE's got official Romanizations all over and Xigbar is used.
 * If you look carefully, Geg posted this message shortly after the Japanese release. Now, we know that the official spelling used is Xigbar. - Zero1328 04:36, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Read the date, Urutapu. I originally wrote this back when everyone thought his name was "Xighar" for some retarded reason and I had to explain that it was with a B, not an H.

BHK's name
BHK's name was revealed as being "Roxas". It has an X in it just like the the other members of the order.
 * Until it's actually confirmed, that's just a rumor. Geg 22:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Until I see actual scans of a magazine or pictures of the supposed "hard candy", I will keep reverting any changes from BHK to "Roxas". --Apostrophe 22:48, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, according to TheMuffinMan of KHI's forums, the name "Roxas" and a lot of other "new" info, including the name of that "female" Order member, were made up as a prank by some people on Gamefaqs, who later admitted to it being made up. So... yeah, I don't think Roxas is real. Geg 22:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yeah Just like the Siru prank.
 * No it was not just like the Siru prank. >_> I posted it in a japanese blog. Not on a forum. And I didn't later admit it on Gamefaqs. --KL 17:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It was still a prank though. :P I like how after I suggested in the Siru thread that it would be better if you had added an "x" into his name it would have been funnier the name "Roxas" appeared. Probably a coincidence, though. Geg 18:06, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, BHK's name is not revealed in the Ultimania book.

Okay, what the hell. Now BHK's name has been confirmed to be Roxas by the official soundtrack tracklist: http://www.toshiba-emi.co.jp/vmc/artist/others/toct25871-2.htm Geg 23:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Translation of the Organization XIII members
http://www.kh2.co.uk/index.php?subaction=showfull&id=1134448536&archive=&start_from=&ucat=&
 * From Kingdom Hearts 2 Ultimania ALPHA

Small error on the Marluxia part of the article.
Hi, I'm a relative new comer to Wikipedia, and I think you have done a wonderful job with the Organization XIII article. However, I just found one small error in the Marluxia part of the article, where it describes "...The real Marluxia, in a strange machine, confronts Sora and another battle ensued." The "strange machine" Marluxia was riding wasn't a machine at all, but the type of nobody he controls. I can offer visual proof of this.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/makoeyes987/MarluxiaDuskRevised.png

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/makoeyes987/S_Marluxianobody.gif

If you look, you can see that it bears the crest of the nobody on the head of it's hood (near where Marluxia is on the top), has a face beneath the hood, arms with sycthes for hands, and other features that distinguish it from just a machine, but more accurately, a nobody that he is either riding or has possibly fused with. I think this is an important fact to Marluxia's story since it foreshadows the new enemy that Sora fights in Kingdom Hearts II, and is one of the many ways Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories "bridges the gap" between "Kingdom Hearts II." I hope you find this helpful.
 * Alas, it's still speculation, a subset of WP:NOR. If there is a official source stating that thing is a Nobody, I'll glady change it. --Apostrophe 22:51, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * If memory serves, according to the Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories Ultimania, what Marluxia rides on is a machine called Spectre... --Blue Dream 18:29, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Still, it pretty much is a nobody. It's obvious it was intended to be that, one can assume it and it will be right. Sometimes the author of a work doesn't give you all the hints as to what or how something happenned: It's pretty much the reader who is the one responsible to interpret that.
 * Then add an image and let the reader of this article decide. --Apostrophe 01:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Number 13?
If Roxas is number 13, only one of the "feminine order member", enigmatic man, and/or silver haired man can be number 1. I think this should be removed until we have more concrete proof. 24.81.148.147 20:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Considering how the person had already played ahead, shouldn't information regarding Roxas' so-called ranking be considered a spoiler?
 * Yes, Roxas being No. 13 is a spoiler--however, those who read KHII-related articles online on wikipedia should know that there will be MAJOR spoilers, right? So is it decided that we won't edit the article to state that Roxas is #13 until more proof comes out? But it's not people from KHI who're saying that Roxas is #13, people over at AC.Net forums are saying the same thing here.  Also the feminine member is said to be Marluxia (source: KHU forums), but I'm not too sure...Mirlen 02:16, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Strange...people are saying the feminine member was Demyx...either way the feminine member is not a new member.

Xemnas
It was revealed on this thread. http://www.khforums.com/index.php?showtopic=17613

Forum threads work only if you're a member, right?
 * Xemnas is silver-haired dude. "Raixel" = Xemnas/Ansem.  This is based on the new pictures of Ansem when he was younger. (source) Mirlen 11:41, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The name "Raxiel" was never real. Aldax and Raxiel were both fan-created names. Anyway, yeah Xemnas is the Enigmatic Man/Silver Haired Unknown. Geg 17:36, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Real Names of Organization Members
This is just a speculation. Roxas's and Xemnas's real name was figured out by unscrambling and taking out the 'X'...so what if we did it to the other members? The note about Xenahort is real name of the "Ansem" Sora and Riku fought in previous games.

EDIT: Those with one name means that it is confirmed. CONFIRMED NAMES LIST: Xemnas, Roxas, Zexion, Vexen, Xigbar, Xaldin, Lexaeus


 * 1 - Xemnas - Ansem (Xehanort)
 * 2 - Xigbar - Braig
 * 3 - Xaldin - Dilan
 * 4 - Vexen - Even
 * 5 - Lexaeus - Elaeus
 * 6 - Zexion - Ienzo
 * 7 - Saix - Sai, Sia, Ias, Ais, Asi, Isa...
 * 8 - Axel - Lea, Ela, Ael, Ale (haha)...
 * 9 - Demyx - Meyd, Demy, Deym, Medy, Dyme...
 * 10 - Luxord - Lurod, Rodul, Dulor, Rolud...
 * 11 - Marluxia - Marulia, Ruliama...
 * 12 - Larxene - Relena, Larene, Nerale, Nalere, Arlene...
 * 13 - Roxas - Sora

source: KHI Forums

The Whole Deal With Ansem, DiZ and Xemnas
The following are confirmed info from those who've played the game from various sites (KHU, KHI, GAMEFAQS, etc.)...

DiZ is the real Ansem. That's why the credit section has him labeled like this: DiZ (Ansem).

Xenmas is Xehanort's nobody.

Xehanort has an X in his name and is a disciple of DiZ and unlike DiZ, he does not seek to destroy Organization XIII.
 * EVIDENCE: If you take out the 'X' and unscramble the word, Xehanort w/out the 'X' = NO Heart.
 * HISTORY (from Suzaku): 'One of Ansem's disciples (this is from Reverse Ansem's Report #8), who basically has no memory of his past before Ansem rescued him one day. He volunteered to be the first test subject. The test awakened in him the power of Twilight.


 * Eventually, the disciples betrayed Ansem, and Xehonart began to call himself Ansem due to amnesia, and as he continued to study darkness, creating the Heartless in the process. He eventually embraced darkness wholy, and became a Heartless himself.


 * When Xehonart, who called himself "Ansem", became a Heartless, this spawned a Nobody, Xemnas. Ansem, now disguised as DiZ, learned that his disciples had also become Nobodies.'

Therefore, Xemnas is Xehanort's nobody and the Superior of the Organization. --Mirlen 00:16, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * BTW, thanks for the fix, Geg. I didn't realize that I put DiZ/Ansem instead of Xehanort *blushes.*  I meant Xehanort.  Mirlen 05:18, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Ansem's Other Report 2
Due to "copyright" issues (Suzaku forbids it to be posted elsewhere), I cannot post the translation here, but you can you can see it at here at KHU and mostly likely Gamfaqs as well.

SUMMARY: DiZ and his six disciples started an experiment that studied the darkness of the heart. It is stated that the youngest of his disciples was "Ienzo," aka Zexion who suggested they do their experiments underground a facility. After awhile, DiZ forbidded his diciples to stop experimenting on the darkness of the heart. Because his disciples had studied the darkness of the heart too much, their loyalty to DiZ disappeared.

By the encouragement of Mickey, with whom he forged a friendship with, he decided to research the place of underground for data. DiZ had found Ansem's(Xehanort's) Report, with 8 names listed on it--going from 0-8. The one who had first started this experiment, the first test subject of the experiment, was DiZ himself.

-Going from #0-#8-
 * 0 - DiZ - the REAL Ansem, complete and whole
 * 1 - Xehanort - the FAKE Ansem from KH1 who had split himself into two parts: Heartless and NEO. Xehanort controlls the Heartless, that's the quote, "the source of all Heartless," comes from.  Therefore, Xemnas = Xehanort's Nobody
 * 2 - Xigbar
 * 3 - Xaldin
 * 4 - Vexen
 * 5 - Lexeus
 * 6 - Zexion
 * 7 - Saix
 * 8 - Axel

Why DiZ wants to destroy the Organization makes sense now. The members (most of them) of the Organization were subjected to his experiment, which he sees as a mistake. And because his experiment was a mistake, so so were the test subjects, who'd become Nobodies. This also explains his hatred against Nobodies. He wants revenge. --Mirlen 00:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Just a minor note. I made a typo when translating that; it actually was basically just saying that Ansem Report #0 was written by the REAL Ansem, and reports 1-8 were written by Xehanort. Keep in mind that KH2 reordered the original Ansem Reports from KH1, starting with #0 instead of #1.

The “X.”
I was about to add this little insight to the article, but I figured that it would probably fall under speculation or whatnot... The article itself states in the first paragraph that the “X” in the names of the Organization members is “a mark of treachery, rebellion or betrayal,” and that it “has yet to be fully explained.” Judging from the information that had been made available recently, I would venture to say that this “betrayal” refers to how the original members refused to cease their heart and darkness experiments when DiZ/Ansem told them to do so. Any thoughts? --KairezLightkeeper 06:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I personally think it should be removed for now, at least until verifiable info comes up. --Apostrophe 07:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

A little bit of info
1. DiZ is the "real Ansem", while the "Ansem" Sora fought was Xehanort, a former pupil turned Heartless/Nobody. 3. Riku was the one who captured Roxas. 4. As in the opening scenes, Riku was the one who asked DiZ to awaken Sora. 5. By now you would have guessed. Riku has Xehanort's face. 6. Why? In order to live in the Dark World, he has to absorb the Darkness, thus assuming the form of Xehanort. 7. Therefore, the "in-between days" talk in the prologue were nothing more than DiZ and Riku conversing. And awakening Sora. 8. They placed Roxas in a computer simulated program that was a reflection of the real Twilight Town, and from there asked Namine to help awaken Sora's memories.

?. Riku gives Kairi a Keyblade, which she uses perfectly fine. source: JL Lee from Gamefaqs. This topic specifically.

I didn't make any chagnes to the pages, but I just wanted to keep this info up until we hear it from more players...

My reaction: I am really confused. Mirlen 07:36, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm...any idea on when Riku gives her a blade? And do you mean the 3-hour prologue is actually a simulation?! Some kind of Matrix, then I suppose Kairi downloaded her skills?Killbrain1 19:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Just Curious
Was there a specific place where the "status" names of the Organization was found? Also, was the "feminine"/female order member concept removed from the game like the glowing eye unknown, or was the simply that these members are one of the existing ones?


 * 
 * The "feminine" unknown and GEU are one of the eight that appear in the game. I'm just not exactly sure which is which. --Apostrophe 06:44, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The GEU is Roxas. The female member who was reported in the SE Party trailer was just Saix that they mistook for a woman. The feminine member who appeared in that magazine scan is Xigbar. Geg 00:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * By the "status" names, I assume you mean the titles? You first see their titles on the gravemarkers at the very end of the game, and I believe they are also mentioned elsewhere. in the game. WtW-Suzaku 03:19, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Tenses
I doubt anyone will think this is a big deal (especially since it'll be a pain to change everything), but the article should be written in the present tense and not the past.

For example, the article reads "while he looked like the strong silent type..." it should read looks because in regards to the story, the events are always occuring in the present each time it is reread or replayed or what not. "He" is still alive as you describe him, despite the fact the audience is knows what happens in the story and that he's going to be defeated in the end. Basically, each time you play the game again, he's not already dead, as he dies, it's occuring in the present. Unless you are describing events that have already occured earlier in the story (like the events of Chain of Memories in the KH2 portion of Axel's article), the predominant tone of the article should be in the present tense, not the past tense. (Unsigned comment by 24.81.148.147)
 * Indeed. Somebody diligent enough should perform all the necessary tense corrections, as the article is currently conflicting with WikiProject Computer and video games. I understand that this article does not wear the WikiProject's tag, but nevertheless, this is video game-related, and I believe the article should conform to this style. --HeteroZellous 21:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

protection
The Kingdom Hearts II war seems to have spilled over to here. Protecting. Please talk it out. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 08:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Talk out what, exactly? It's simply vandalism by anons, which is easily solved by blocking them. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 17:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly. It'd be easier to just semi-protect the page like we tried with the Kingdom Hearts II page. Geg 17:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I moved it to SP. --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 07:35, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Name Pronounciations
How are the names pronounced? Is Xemnas pronounced "Khemnas" or "Shemnas"? Is Xaldin "Khaldin" or "Shaldin"?
 * Huh? It's Zemnas and Zaldin. Z sounds. Geg 22:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Grant.

Elements
Since there's a big "ANY CHANGE OF ELEMENTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY REVERTED" at the start of the article, I thought I'd add this here first.

The KHII Ultimania lists the different elements for each member, the ones that the article has incorrectly are:

Xemnas: Nothingness, not darkness.

Xigbar: Space, not time.

Zexion: Unless shadow was confirmed elsewhere, he doesn't have an element listed.

Luxord: Time, not illusion.

So, I just made those changes to the article for now. Kamina 13:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Huh... that's odd. From what I've seen, the elements were taken from the game itself. *checks the Japanese KH2 Wiki* Okay, the Japanese Wikipedia has the elements that you posted. Though I know they previously had the ones we had posted here. Did they just change the elements for Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania or something? Though Xigbar's element now makes a lot more sense given the nature of your boss fight with him. Likewise, Luxord's now makes zero sense. Geg 22:40, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the warning was specifically for anons who kept adding inane elements, such as twilight for either Roxas or Xemnas, and gravity, space, or stars for Saix. You've got a source, so it's fine. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 23:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hm, now Im curious, where WAS it ever said Zexion's element was shadow? Was it from an official source? If its not shadow, and if Luxord's element truly is time (of course, the battle doesnt make much sense), maybe Zexion uses Illusion - especially if you consider how he used that whole Destiny Islands trick with Riku, even disguising himself as Sora. Seems pretty illusory to me.


 * And according the kh2.co.uk, theres something in Ultimania that hints we might see Zexions weapon soon. 5:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Some guy on the kh2.co.uk forums. He had the titles, weapons, and elements derived from in-game playing. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 23:14, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Wait, if it was in game playing, why arent we using THAT in the article? After all, the game itself is more official than Ultimania. Of course, maybe he lied...but I dont see Luxord using Time, ever. His whole battle is about Illusion.


 * And I suggest that for the time being, dont leave Zexions element as unknown. We should that its possbily Shadow, if that is indeed what the game itself said. 6:23, 28 February, 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd personally wait for the English release. If it's different in there, we'll change the article. Relying on second-hand information on a Japanese game doesn't seem reliable to me, whereas several people have confirmed the Ultimania's contents. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 23:33, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Luxord's fight is titled something like "Battle/Struggle for Time". Though it hasn't got much to do with time, really. Whereabouts in which game (COM or KHII) was Zexion's element supposed to have come from? Kamina 00:00, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think Zexion's element, as well as the others (Darkness for Xemnas, etc) came from the Jiminy Journal in Kingdom Hearts II. I can't think of anywhere else they would have come from. Geg 00:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe there have been mistranslations from the journal or Ultimania. For Xemnas, both Darkness and Nothingness make perfect sense. As for Zexion's shadow, come on, even it's its not officially stated, it's either Shadow or Illusion (even though I think shadow includes illusion) 8:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Do the deceased members of the Organization (Larxene, Marluxia, Vexen, Zexion, and Lexaeus) have entries in Jiminy's Journal? 8:40, 28 February 2006


 * Yeah, the members from COM get a profile in the journal. But neither Xemnas' or Zexion's mention anything about an element. Kamina 13:02, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont get why Nomura cant just TELL us what Zexions element is and if he has a weapon. I mean, if you think about it, KH2 is the end of the Org. No matter how much we may have liked them, theyre gonna be gone if theres a KH3. So it seems strange that we are wondering about info on #6 Zexion, when we have info on #1 Xemnas. 5:21, 1 March, 2006 (UTC)


 * Please do not use Wikipedia as a forum. The talk page is for improving the article. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 22:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you sure about no element being listed for Xemnas or Zexion in the Journal? The Japanese Wikipedia used to have the same elements we had listed here. Geg 22:32, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I went and checked them both again. Neither of Xemnas' mention him being associated with darkness, and Zexion's doesn't mention him controlling anything. Either shadow and darknes came from somewhere else, or it was actually speculation someone put after playing the game. Kamina 23:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * What about the others? Does it mention Time for Xigbar and Illusion for Luxord? Geg 01:00, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Darkness seems to make little sense for Xemnas, at least from his appearance in Final Mix in which he uses various light-based attacks. I've not played KH2 yet so forgive me if his attacks appear darkness-based in the game. Also, if you recall, the princesses outside the Xemnas battle in Final Mix specify his power as being something other than darkness or light. 6:54, 1 March 2006


 * But then why would Roxas wield light? Nobodies are supposed to be neutral with that, right? Also, he wields the Oathkeeper and the Oblivion, representing light&darkness.Killbrain1 16:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I just realized something. i.e., Saix's title in the article, and on his statue in KH2 is the Moon Dancing Demon Man, and his element is Moon. Zexions is the Shadow Walking Tactician, so it must be Shadow. And it certainly does make sense. 8:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Luxord's in-game profile does actually mention time ("a gambler who manipulates time") anyway. Xigbar's doesn't mention anything, though. Kamina 13:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't "space", "gravity", "cosmic" and "moon" hit about the same thing, namely dimension? It's just that dimension is more commonly used as a real element. Of course, if we were to give either Saix or Xigbar that element, then what would the other get? I think time would make everything complete, although I can't actually bend reality unless I corrupt Square. Do note that I never played KH II.Killbrain1 18:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Why don't we just wait a few years? KH3 is confirmed and Nomura planned to have all of the org in the coliseum (including the Chain o'Memories guys) in KH2, but there wasn't any space left, wich makes it most likely to happen in KH3, so maybe then we could observe the elements then, if you're not to busy dodging the other members' attacks, of course.

Wouldn't Marluxia's element be illusion instead, because flowers are more of an illusion element. Marluxia used a copy of himself in the first battle then sora met with him upstairs which was the true him. Plus there was a girl in inuyasha that used flowers and her powers were illusion.
 * Your comment about Marluxia's powers is interesting, but hasn't his been consistantly listed as "nature" (regarding the flowers his uses)?  Additionally, that girl, Shunran, from Inuyasha with the flower powers has nothing do with this (just because they have similar powers doesn't mean anything).  24.84.8.69 21:55, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Well illusion seems more like Luxord's element. Time just doesn't make sence if you've seen his boss fight against Sora. If you go to Youtube you can look up the clip there. Trust me. When you see the clip, time just seems a little more of a stretch. Illusion or even Luck suits him better.


 * Yes, but Ultimania says its Time. And theres no bettr source than the game itself.

Saix vs. Saïx
Where was it said that the English spelling was Saïx? It's most likely in the English cutscene that Maverick released, but I'm trying not to spoil myself any further. >>; urutapu 22:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's in one of the English cutscenes. Geg 22:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, then. urutapu 05:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is the difference in pronunciation between the two? I don't think I've ever seen words with an ï in them (only language I'm really familiar with is English, which as far as I know doesn't use an I with two dots...), so I have no idea how to pronounce it. 152.163.101.8 03:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Saix: "Sikes/Sykes". Like Wanda Sykes. Saïx: It's like "Eye Ex" with an S before the eye. S-Eye-Ex. Geg 04:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The two dots is called an umlaut, I believe. It's a German symbol for pronunciation or something. Wikipedia has an article on it, naturally. My interpretation of the diference in pronuciation is that in Japanese, Saix is pronounced as one syllable, in English it's two, Sa-ix. - Zero1328 07:17, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, both are technically the same. The "vowel blends" of Japanese (i.e. "ai", "ei", "oi", etc etc...) are coincidences and are properly pronounced as two syllables.  It's just was they happen to sound like that when pronounced quickly.  For example, "ai" sounds like "eye" but is "ah-ee," respectively. urutapu 04:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay mistake..
Where does it everk say that all nobodies are born in Twilight Town? I know that's where it says Roxas was born, but I don't know if that can be used to encompass all nobodies in the game. What about the huge mass of nobodies that reside in the World That Never Was? If they were all born in Twilight Town, why would their base be set up in The World That Never Was? I think someone should check the validity of that claim and be sure it's correct.

Ansem Report 6 says Nobodies are born somewhere other than the world of light, so why would Nobodies all be born in Twilight Town...a world that's a world of light? I think the reason Roxas' was born in Twilight Town is, as said in Ansem Report 12, due to Sora not staying a heartless long and getting his body back. Just as Kairi didn't lose her body and her nobody was reborn somewhere else in the world of light, so was Sora's. If any place would be the world where Nobodies are born into..it would be The World That Never Was. The world of nothing...just like nobodies are nothing. The nobodies call themselves "Residents of Darkness" after all.