Talk:Organization XIII/Archive 2

Aerial blades
Removed aerial blades' link to lightsabers. A slight similarity in appearance is no reason for a link to a completely different weapon in an entirely different franchise.

Reverted again. Please stop linking to lightsabers. 5:18, April 17


 * Then please provide some way to explain what they look like. "Aerial blades" isn't very descriptive of what they look like. Also, four tildes, not just three to sign your comments. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 20:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I did just that, and somebody reverted it back. Yeesh. 141.149.9.9 13:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

English Terms Revisted
Just beat the game. According to Jiminey's Journal, Official Strategy Guide, and Magazines this is what me and my friend got.

Xemnas - Secret Ansem report refers to him as the Seeker of Darkness. He wields the power of darkness in battle while wielding blades made from energy.

Xigbar - Defys gravity in battle while shooting light bullets from his rayguns.

Xaldin - Uses six lances in battle and can also control wind.

Saix - Wields a broadsword that resembles the moon and has power over Kingdom Hearts. (Kingdom Hearts isn't his element, moon is. He just uses the power to transform into his berserk state.)

Axel - Controls fire with his unique shaped weapons in hand.

Demyx - Plays a sitar in battle that allows the water to dance.

Luxord - Gambler who can manipulate time. He also uses a deck of playing cards in battle by manipulating them to attack/defend.

Roxas - Dual-wields Keyblades and controls light.

OK, based on the above, I believe some changing is in order.

Remember, this is all from the English version, not Japanese. Go make an article dedicated to the Organization in Japan if you have a term problem.χ


 * They never state or clarify the precise elements for Xemnas, Xigbar, Saïx, or Roxas in the game. Thus, we turn to the next best source, that being the Ultimania, which has all of the elements and weapons, with the annoying exception of Zexion, and the information is directly from Square Enix itself. Changes are only made if the English version states something entirely different, like Lexaeus' "tomahawk" instead of "axe sword" or Axel controlling "fire", not "flame". '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 20:54, 6 April 2006 (UTC)


 * They never clarify Vexen's element in CoM either, but an moron could pick it out as ice if you fought him. The same applies to Xemnas, fighting him at Memory Skyscraper cleary identifies his element as darkness based on his attacks and fighting ability.

Xigbar 100% uses gravity in the English version. Read the profile of his Nobodies, which use the same exact fighting style. The journal says they use gravity in battle by defying it.


 * How the Hell does fighting him at Memory's Skyscraper or his fighting style clarify something as ambigious as darkness? That's what I mean by clarification. Defying gravity doesn't mean they use gravity; when I jump, I defy gravity, but that hardly means I can control it. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 00:04, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The website is nothing but flawed... Are you even listening to yourself when you speak? Nothingness and space are not in any way a typical element of an RPG, and I don't think the makers of COUNTLESS RPGs would screw up the terms. And about Xigbar, sure you defy gravity when you jump, but this guy WALKS ON THE FRIGGIN' CEILING!!! Wow, it's like a physics lesson being taught to idiots... Fine, keep your irrational terms and while you're at it, don't bother changing them back when everyone on GameFAQs comes to change them. Seems not everyone would disagree with me when I'm right.


 * What ^ said. How is space an element anyways? It doesn't even make sense. It's definately gravity. His weapons are purple and weapons are usually colored after their element. Also, gravity is an element in Kingdom Hearts 1. His journal entry even says it!


 * You're actually getting upset over the fact that the elements aren't unoriginal? Wow.


 * What website are you talking about? I'm talking about the actual Kingdom Hearts Ultimania, a strategy guide with plot information directly from Square Enix that released in Japan. If you feel the immense need to whine as you're doing now, I suggest you direct that to Square Enix. The elements, as established by official sources and not conjecture by a rude user, stay. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 00:39, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Slightly off topic, but I find it funny that WindEmperor posted a second time posing as someone else to make it look like he has people who agree with him. Geg 01:41, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Nobody seems to correctly understand how space is used as Xigbar's element. It isn't space as in "outer space," it's space as in the dimension, which he clearly utilizes by teleporting. This would also cover his defying gravity.

I am slightly interested in Marluxia's element. Does the Ultimania specify him as using nature or flower? 12:50, 9 April 2006

English version
So far, these are the ones voicing the members for KH2. They'll be staying here until they are confirmed via ending credits. Though


 * Axel: Quinton Flynn (true)
 * Saix: Kirk Thornton (This is offically true, though ironic.)
 * Xigbar: Lex Lang (false)
 * Luxord: Robin Atkin Downes Letter of confirmation (True)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fractyl (talk • contribs).
 * Uh, what do you mean by "here"? on the talk page or article itself? I don't think it should go on any of the articles yet, since we're not definitely sure. Keeping the list on the talk page is ok though, for quick reference or a quick copy paste when it's confirmed. - Zero1328 08:38, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, from seeing the videos, Saix IS voiced by Kirk Thorton. If you had watch Samurai Champloo, you noticed Kirk Thron uses the same voice he used for Jin for Saix. Fractyl
 * Even if it is correct, you're guessing, and it's original research. Just to let you know, the first episode of Samurai Champloo premiered on free-to-air TV here yesterday, and I'm not really sure on the voice. - Zero1328 07:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I watched Samurai Champloo last night, and even I agree that Saix is most likely voiced by Kirk Thornton. But I'm not adding it. Like we've said, Wikipedia has rules against posting things without varifiable information. Hell, it's right there under the edit box: "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL." Besides, there's only 4 days left. Just hold off until the game is released. And also, I kind of find it hard to believe a letter that doesn't even mention Luxord's name. Geg 15:57, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, they would be placed in "English Version (Tentative)", meaning the info is tentative and subject to change. As for Luxord, the letter was serving as a confirmation from the replier that he is voicing Luxord & stated his involvement with the PotC game & the FFVII Compliation.Fractyl

Xemnas is credited at different places as Paul St. Peter and Ron Perlman. Both are possible, but the character's voice sounds closer to Perlman than anything I've heard St. Peter use. Can we get confirmation on who it is? The S 02:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It's right in the credits. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 02:37, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Should Roxas have his own page?
I definitely think so. He's much more important of a character than the vast majority of the Organization members and it seems a bit inappropriate that he doesn't have his own page. It's fine to have him included in this page, but a separate page would allow us to go into greater depth than simply listing him on Organization XIII's page. --164.107.199.215 18:40, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Why? There's not a whole lot more to tell about him, unless you intend to fill up the article with everything that happens during the 6 days, which is just... eech. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 21:10, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

To me, it doesn't seem appropriate that Namine has her own page and Roxas doesn't have his, when they parallel each other in so many ways and are of equal signficance of the plot of KH2 (Roxas is arguably even more important). Plus, very little of Roxas's time in the Organization is even featured in the game, so placing him only in on the Organization page doesn't seem right. For Heaven's sake, you play as him for the first three hours of the game! I think that merits his own page. --164.107.199.215 02:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Because Namine appears in two games and isn't part of a group, thus can't be pushed into a group article. Again, there isn't much to say about Roxas besides OMG SORA'S NOBODY!!! and stuff in the six days that don't amount to anything in the end. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 05:06, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry for disagreeing with you, but the character of Roxas is too important to the game not to have his own page. The length of the information in this page is adequate, but placing him solely on the Organization page is inappropriate. And just because he is a member of a group is no reason for him not to have his own page. If someone wants information on the character of Roxas (they did play as him for over three hours, after all), they shouldn't have to scroll through this enormous page to find it. Plus, the fact that Roxas is a member of the Organization IS a potential spoiler. In fact, this page spoiled that for me long before the English version of KHII was available. Directing people to the Organization page when they are solely seeking information on Roxas is a bit careless.--164.107.199.215 18:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Really? I figured out that Roxas was part of the Organization before I even PLAYED the game. Then again, if you've played Chain of Memories (or at least are familiar with its storyline and characters), then it should be pretty obvious. Besides, if you didn't want game spoilers, why are you looking up the characters on Wikipedia? Viltris 20:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

That is a good question, and I learned with KHII that Wikipedia is the absolute best way to ruin a game for people. A striking number of video game Wikipedians show very little regard to those who haven't played the games. The most obvious example is Xehanort. The way that character was handled on Wikipedia was horrendous. Anyone looking up info on Ansem from the original KH immediately had an important part of KHII spoiled for them, because the select few who imported the Japanese version updated the page months before any English speaking KH fan could possibly know about the plot twist. And listing Roxas solely on the Organization XIII pages does basically the same. Just because a person looks up information about a character does not mean they are asking for spoilers. --164.107.199.215 22:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Whaa. Whaa. It's called information and accuracy, which Wikipedia is supposed to provide ("Not all visitors will recognize the site as an encyclopedia, which should strive first to inform, spoilers or not."). We're not going to censor such information because people don't have the common sense to avoid articles concerning Kingdom Hearts if they don't want it spoiled for them. For example, I'm not looking at the Infinite Crisis article because I know it contains spoilers for Infinite Crisis #6, which I haven't read, but I'm not going to pester the editors to remove vital information. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 23:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia, an actual encyclopedia? Don't make me laugh. Don't get me wrong, I love Wikipedia, but acting as if it's a real encyclopedia is hilarious. I consider it a vast information resource, not an actual encyclopedia. With that said, I don't have any problems with articles containing spoilers. What I do have a problem with is articles that are structured in a manner that makes spoilers unavoidable. It also brings into question the manner in which games imported from non-English-speaking countries are treated on Wikipedia. Is it really fair and accurate to update their information based on the foreign version of the game? Enormous things can happen to a game in the localization process, so not only do I think that it is premature to update games on the English page based on foreign versions, but it is also unfair. I'm sure, deep in his heart, Jimmy Wales wants Wikipedia to be an actual encyclopedia, but it never will be. Because of the nature of the site, it cannot be treated like an official encyclopedia. --164.107.199.215 18:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

If Roxas deserves his own page, then obviously Xemnas does too. Talk about "importance to the game"... without him, the game would have no storyline, period. And no, I don't think either of them really need their own page. Just pointing out something. 205.188.116.68 01:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but, while Xemnas just plays his part as the leader of the Organization, Roxas initially has a role OUTSIDE of the Organization, and technically he had leaved the Organization XIII when you start to play the game. I believe we should create a separate page for Roxas.


 * I agree that Roxas deserves his own page. Slightly off-topic, but who posted the Xemnas picture with that ghastly green background? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.103.195.77 (talk • contribs) 12:50, 9 April 2006


 * Wikipedia, an actual encyclopedia? Don't make me laugh.  Don't get me wrong, I love Wikipedia, but acting as if it's a real encyclopedia is hilarious.  I consider it a vast information resource, not an actual encyclopedia... --164.107.199.215 18:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I quote Philwelch: "In stark terms, Wikipedia is one of the single most important undertakings in human history. If we do our job, future generations will look upon Wikipedia as the cornerstone of the information revolution. If we don't, the world will lose a tremendous resource. And that is why I'm here." That's why we Wikipedians are serious about this.  That's why we're here.  To make into an encyclopedia filled with vast information that people'll be able to depend on in the future.


 * I admit being more partial to Roxas than I am to Sora, but there is not enough information on him that would enable him to have his own article by Wikipedia's policy. Even if Roxas is central to the plot, he would not be able to have his own article according to WP:FICT: "Major characters in a work of fiction should be covered within the article on that work of fiction. If the article on the work itself becomes long, then giving major characters an article of their own is good practice." So even if everybody viewed Roxas as a major character, there would still not be enough information to the article to make it long without going "fancrufty" &mdash; as the editors who focus on editing real-world articles at Wikipedia often criticize editors who focus on fictional articles. :P  From the given quote from WP:FICT, it doesn't matter the importance of a character &mdash; it states to give a character his/her own article ONLY IF there is a sufficient amount of information to be written about him. — Mir   l   e   n   18:13, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Roxas should have his own page so someone who just started the game or doesn't have it yet looks it up, he won't get spoillers. The KHII page links straight to the part with Roxas, thus skipping the part that warns you about spoilers. Either his own page or a spoiler tag above his name. ::Roxas should have his own page so someone who just started the game or doesn't have it yet looks it up, he won't get spoillers. The KHII page links straight to the part with Roxas, thus skipping the part that warns you about spoilers. Either his own page or a spoiler tag above his name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.132.20.34 (talk • contribs)
 * If you want to avoid spoilers, then don't come to Wikipedia, whose purpose is to contain information, irregardless of people's personal feelings about it. Simple common sense. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 21:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
 * To add on to Apostrophe's words, there is a spoiler tag on this article right before the contents menu. If there isn't a spoiler ending tag anywhere after that, then that means that everything below contains spoilers.  Also, I'm rather unsure of what you're trying to say.  Even if Roxas had his own page, there would still be spoilers. — Mir   l   e   n   11:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I started one about roxas just search roxas and it will appear --sar 04:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Summons?
Any particular reason why the summons are on this page? They do NOT fit in with the Org XIII.

Xemnas/Mansex
Wow. who put that there? --Malomeat 06:23, 4 April 2006 (UTC) Yeah, I put it there. :P And I only edited the voice actors, because they were RIGHT.
 * A user named GrandpaPorridge. He sounds a bit familiar to me, I think he's vandalised before. You can see it in the history at the top. - Zero1328 06:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC) Edit: I checked, apparently he was part of the edit war for the VAs for a little while. - Zero1328 06:31, 4 April 2006 (UTC) 
 * Yeah.. they were right.. but at the time it couldn't be confirmed. But lets end the conversation at that, shall we? I don't want to start it all over again. - Zero1328 06:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Slight addition. They weren't all correct. Xigbar isn't voiced by Lex Lang, and Xemnas isn't voiced by Paul Dobson. That's why we were reverting the names on the cast list. As I said several times, it's just speculation and it shouldn't belong on Wikipedia as there's a chance the information was wrong, and as it turned out, some of it was wrong. Geg 23:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Naming System
Assuming their naming conventions follows that of other members of Organization XIII, these may be the original names of members 7-12.


 * Saïx: Aïs, Asï, Ïas, Ïsa, Saï, or Sïa
 * Axel: Ael, Ale, Eal, Ela, Lae, or Lea
 * Demyx---: Medy, Deym. Edym, Dyme, Yed
 * Luxord--: Dolur
 * Marluxia: Ramalu
 * Larxene-: Lerena, Arlene


 * Edym, Dyme, Yemd, blah, blah. Yeah. People can figure the possible combinations on their own. But it doesn't matter because the only ones to officially be given original names are 1-6 and 13. You might as well say that Larxene might control Ninja Nobodies and Zexion might control Mime Nobodies. WtW-Suzaku 13:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, lessens the need to add them on the article itself.


 * We just know the original names of the first six members, and the last one, Roxas. As we know the KH series will continue, I suppose we'll discover the names of the other six in a new game. So, don't waste time trying to discover the original name: either we'll discover them in a future game, or we'll never know them for sure.

Nobodies
Inspired by WtW suzaku. The common theme of the Nobodies is they are named after a job in the Final Fantasy series.


 * Vexen---: Scholars
 * Lexaeus-: Gladiators
 * Zexion--: Illusionists
 * Marluxia: Summoners
 * Larxene-: Ninjas


 * Just what is your point? Wikipedia is not a chat room. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 02:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, this is discussions fo one thing. Secondly, if the Nobodies appear in KH3(Once it goes underway), the desingers would have to add the remaining five that serve the respective Org member.
 * The talk page is for discussions to improve the article. Not speculationfest. Also, you're hardly working on "Kingdom Hearts III", thus you have no place to dicate what they should add. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 15:03, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

While the page shouldn't be used for speculation, the connection between the Nobody (or more specifically, what are listed as "high-ranking" Nobody in Jiminy's Journal) and character classes from the Final Fantasy series is an interesting connection that should be shown.

Spectre/Specter isn't Official
A quick google search of マールーシャ スペクタ－ (the kana for Marluxia and Specter) turns up only ONE result. And that's a message board topic in which someone asks what its called, and a person basically replies, "Maybe it's supekutaa, that's a scary ghost in English." It is also not named in the Chain of Memories Ultimania, only listing the final battle as "Marluxia Final".

The name "Spectre" actually started out, IIRC, when someone asked if it had a name, and someone replied "it's Spectre". When asked where he got it, there was never a reply. It just spread like a disease from there. WtW-Suzaku 14:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. I've changed the article so that it's unnamed. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 21:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The battle against Roxas
"Roxas could have been fighting Sora for dominance over their body, or he could have been testing Sora to make sure he was strong enough to fight Xemnas and other Organization members, or simply because he had wanted to meet Sora himself."
 * This sounds as just speculation to me. Shouldn't we take it out?

Change in naming!
Naminé admits to being Kairi's unknown. Naminé neither has an X in it, nor is it an anagram of Kairi. This proves the statements of naming of the nobodies untrue. I think this should be taken out and dropped from the discussion.


 * ...this seems so incredibly useless. >> Naminé holds no voluntary affiliation to the Organization, and as such, wasn't named by the same process.  Naminé's name also refers to Kairi's, anyway--the "Kai" of Kairi is "ocean," while the "nami" of Naminé is "wave." urutapu 05:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You just beat me to it, Urutapu. Namine isn't in the Organisation. - Zero1328 05:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Is Nomura's word not good enough? "Before this I've mentioned that when their names are spelt in Roman alphabets, there will surely be an "X", right? The truth is that when the "X" is taken away, the alphabets that are left behind is an anagram of the members' real names when they were humans. I actually wanted to insert an event scene showing how Roxas got his name. First the word "SORA" popped up and those letters were rearranged into "ROAS" and BAM, suddenly the "X" got inserted in the middle and he was told "Take this name...." Well, I had an image like that but it was something difficult to do time-wise so I gave up." '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 06:02, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Nobodys that "belong" to Org. members.
Just something I think I should bring up. The article lists which Nobody enemy is controlled by which Organization member (Dancers controlled by Demyx, Samurai controlled by Roxas, etc.). My question is in regards to the foundation of the claim. On one hand, half of them make sense: Berserkers, Dragoons, Snipers, and Gamblers were all first seen being summoned by a particular Organization member. They even have the same reaction commands. On the other hand, I haven't seen material suggesting connections between the remaining Nobodys and the other Org. members, unless it was broken down so that the remaining Nobodys teamed up with whichever Org. member made the most sense.

I suppose all I'm asking is, should we reference an official source indicating this kind of hierarchy? Or should we list it as speculation?


 * Kingdom Hearts II Ultimania strategy / plot / character guide + artbook. Official Square Enix publication. There's scans of the thing floating all over the place, all it takes is an ounce of research. Here's an example. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v417/WtW_Suzaku/xemnas.jpg


 * An ounce of research? I don't know if you know this, but KH2 Ultimania is a 700+ page document, and it's impossible to find scans by yourself, unless you search the ends of the earth around it. I'd expect a little bit more help. Cerealchan 01:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * To the original poster - I happen to have found a picture gallery with all of the information to their Nobodies, from the KH2 Ultimania guide, but it's untranslated. It's under their Organization name, and it's the third bullet point. http://pics.livejournal.com/nunuu/gallery/0000r7a6?page=2&.view=grid Cerealchan 01:36, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay..slight mistake
Where does it everk say that all nobodies are born in Twilight Town? I know that's where it says Roxas was born, but I don't know if that can be used to encompass all nobodies in the game. What about the huge mass of nobodies that reside in the World That Never Was? If they were all born in Twilight Town, why would their base be set up in The World That Never Was? I think someone should check the validity of that claim and be sure it's correct.

Ansem Report 6 says Nobodies are born somewhere other than the world of light, so why would Nobodies all be born in Twilight Town...a world that's a world of light? I think the reason Roxas' was born in Twilight Town is, as said in Ansem Report 12, due to Sora not staying a heartless long and getting his body back. Just as Kairi didn't lose her body and her nobody was reborn somewhere else in the world of light, so was Sora's. If any place would be the world where Nobodies are born into..it would be The World That Never Was. The world of nothing...just like nobodies are nothing. The nobodies call themselves "Residents of Darkness" after all.


 * "The world of light" refers to the Disney worlds, Hollow Bastion, and so on--anywhere you can get to in the first Kingdom Hearts is part of the "World of Light". The "world of darkness" would be places like The World that Never Was, that beach, etc. that are always dark. Twilight Town is neither--there's always a sunset. It's not part of the "light" worlds at all, so it's entirely possible that some Nobodies do come into existence there, but probably not all. No reason to mention it in the article, though, because nowhere in the game is the place that Nobodies come from specifically stated. 164.106.40.69 16:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, so someone put Twilight Town back as the birth place of all nobodies ...Again I ask..where in the game or any material does it say that's where they are all born? I don't understand where you could get that information from, especially when the Ansem Report #6 contradicts this. Why is it still there? In fact, where does it ever say Nobodies have one specific place or world that they're spawned in, other than somewhere outside the "World of Light?"


 * Okay, a better way to describe this is this way. Nobodies are usually born in Worlds In-Between, like Twilight Town, Castle Oblivion, or Traverse Town (the only Worlds In-Between shown in KH so far). They are born there because, like Nobodies are with humans, they are usually formed from the remains of other worlds. It's stated in one of the Other Ansem Reports, though I doubt the wording is quite the same.


 * To further expand on the "worlds", The World of Darkness and The World of Light are more like planes of existance. Light is the top plane, containing worlds like Hollow Bastion, Port Royal, Destiny Islands, what have you. In contrast, The World of Darkness is where The World That Never Was is, and other worlds like that. While Sora was using his Keyblade to seal the keyholes and battle Heartless in the World of Light, Mickey was also fighting his way through the World of Darkness. At The End of the World, they ultimately arrived on opposite sides of Kingdom Hearts, sealing the door from both sides. In contrast to all the normal worlds, there are also Worlds In-Between, which fall between both, and bridge both. Because of their locations and instability (often formed from the remains of destroyed worlds), the Dark Corridors (sort of worm holes between worlds) often appear there.


 * The whole thing is illustrated quite well by the KH2 World Map, where you see the World of Light on top of the "glass" plane, The World That Never Was upside down on the other side, in the World of Darkness, and Twilight Town is sorta in-between. (This is also why you have to go through a Dark Corridor in Twilight Town to reach The World That Never Was), though the castle which the Organization constructs there is actually in the World of Light, the only way to reach it, initially, is from TWTNW in The World of Darkness. Confused yet? XD WtW-Suzaku 03:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Even if Ansem Report #6 contradicted whatever it said, Ansem Report #7 is the verifier that Twilight Town is the place where all Nobodies are born.


 * This is from the Japanese translation of Ansem's Report 7 whilst referring to Twilight Town:


 * "While seeking a place to continue my investigation and planning while hidden from them, I have reached Twilight Town."


 * "When beings without hearts, "Heartless", are born, the remaining soul and body are born in this world as a different existence."


 * If that isn't proof, I don't know what is, concerning that the "this" refers back to Twilight Town. I'm backing up WtW-Suzaku here. Cerealchan 05:53, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * No, not necessarily. "World" has referred to a great number of things (world of darkness, world of light, and Riku saying that Destiny Islands is part of a much larger world). DiZ refers to Kingdom Hearts as the heart of the world, though he is not referring to the heart of Radiant Garden. I think WtW-Suzaku had it right - that's always how I've understood it as well. 5:14 PM, 21 April 2006

They are born in twilight town,and immediately migrate to the world that never was,most likey though betwixt and between.-GRAHAMR

Axel's KHII Description
Excuse me, I'm confused about Axel's description for Kingdom Hearts II. I agree with most of it, but there is one part that does not seem right.

''When that plan fails, Axel discovers that Xemnas has simply been using Roxas and the other members of the Organization to further his own selfish desires and he turns against the Organization. He kidnaps Kairi to see if he could use her to influence Sora to fight with him against Xemnas.''

When did Axel say he kidnapped Kairi to persuade Sora to fight against Xemnas? When did Xemnas say or imply he was just using the Organization members to "further his own selfish desires"? I played the game twice and I did not any kind of impression like that, so I would like to know how this statement is true.

I tried editting the page by using this paragraph, but it was reverted:

''When that plan fails, he betrays the Organization to further his own plans. Outside of Organization orders, he kidnaps Kairi, but Saix stole her away for the Organization to fuel Sora's anger and brands Axel as a traitor. Axel reappears during the fifth visit of Hollow Bastion in front of Sora, and informs Sora that Organization XIII is manipulating him, and promptly escapes when Saix appears. Later in the second visit of Twilight Town, Saix warns Sora that Axel will stop at nothing to turn him into a Heartless, but it is unclear if Axel truely was trying to do that.'' Rasenth 05:38, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Your paragraph sounds better to me. I don't know why someone would revert it.


 * Hell, Xemnas tells Kingdom Hearts in the game to "share its power with ALL Nobodies," which actually contradicts the information in the article. 5:17 PM, 21 April 2006


 * I don't know how useful this is but I always figured that Axel kidnapped Kairi in order to try to turn Sora into a heartless - thereby bringing back Roxas, but he realises the error of his ways and helps Sora get to TWTNW 216.221.88.108 00:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Marluxia?
The description for Organization member XI, Marluxia, appears to be missing at the moment. - 22:08 (CDT) 19 April 2006


 * Somebody's been messing around with the Organization XIII page, changing "Ienzo" to "Enzo", claiming that Misterious Boy is MisterYous Boy for Roxas. I'll go look around for the History to revert it. Cerealchan 03:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Inane Trivia?
I don't know if this really deserves to be stated anywhere, but does anyone else think it's interesting that ALL of the Organization members wear the same boots, which Xehanort also wears in the flashbacks to when he was a disciple, and all through KH1-CoM as "Ansem"? Guess they all shop at the same store. WtW-Suzaku 04:18, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hrm, I don't see anything that shows that there, but I agree, it's definitely not needed. Cerealchan 04:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

...vandals.
We should probably ban 69.110.5.129 or something. He seems to need to yell his pork fetish off of the mountaintops. urutapu 17:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, it'd save us a lot of trouble -_- Cerealchan 21:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * At least get the article protected, or something. None of the other KH articles seem to get vandalized much at all. urutapu 00:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It's only one vandal attacking though, so I think we should give him warnings for every offense he has done. There's a guide to it in Vandalism Cerealchan 06:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Give him warnings for now. I'm a sort of "reformed vandal," (had some fun with the Ganondorf article a while back) but I'm glad I haven't been banned. If he persists, do something. Since I'm not a member or anything, I don't think I can. 05:19 PM, 21 April 2006
 * Kay, except I'm not sure how to do anonymous warnings, since warnings are supposed to be on the user's talkpage or something? Oh well. And it's not that hard to register, unless your cookies won't allow it or something. It doesn't even require a confirmation message! Cerealchan 08:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Acman is also vandalizing. I think he should be warned, or banned.  I second the request to get this article protected.  Cyfin 09:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Why is this such a popular vandal page? I suggest blocking this page to domain numbers, and warning all account vandals. Dee man45 02:55, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The reson people are vandalizing this page because no one is really loojing out for it that much someone should take responsibility and look at it every day to make sure nothing happens
 * That's what we're all doing. Geg 02:02, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Cloaks
Is there any information out there about the cloaks? Most notibly, why Riku and Mickey wear them until they're fully 'revealled' despite having no organization connections whatsoever? 216.221.88.108 00:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 01:45, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know, they were running around their LIVING QUARTERS. Couldn't they just steal them?  Well, except for Mickey.  He's got ears sewn into the hood. urutapu 03:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but why? It's not as if Mickey, for instance could be using it as a disguise?  There's gotta be a reason for it, Mickey wouldn't just grab the cloak trying to be inconspicuous, not with those ears.  They had to put him in a cloak for a reason. 216.185.76.77 16:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ears or no ears, a black cloak is still much better for sneaking around than those bright-red clothes he usually wears. 64.12.117.7 00:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it really better for sneaking around a bright grey omni-lit castle or a world locked in an eternally orange sunset?  And it seems to me that Organization XIII wouldn't have them just lying around, especially in Mickey's size.  A black cloak is pretty easy to get your hands on, but Mickey's cloak was an Organization uniform Webrunner 21:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think its just a normal black cloak.don't the organzation have caoks that magicly shieled their faces? mickey has no such thing.-GRAHAMR

I think maybe because they were in the darkness they didn'y feel like themselves and felt like nobodies and temparily joined the organazation and quit and kept the cool cloaks

Someone Vandalized this page
I restored the last 2 members of the organization to the page.

Superway25 20:34, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, you didn't. I did. It's not that difficult, either. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 21:01, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

"Order" vs. "Organization"
"Order" is pretty pointless to keep...it isn't used in any Japanese media that uses English names past "[deep dive]". urutapu 23:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, at least you should keep the redirection. Someone who only saw [deep dive] will think the Organization XIII's called XIII Order.

Axel's "death" in CoM
"letting Sora believe him to be gone for good (whether or not Sora believes this is unclear)"

In Chain of Memories, if you read "Castle Oblivion"'s entry in Jiminy's Journal's after entering the last world of the game, he says Axel "is out of the way". Well, if they thought he was still alive, they wouldn't be so sure that Axel was going to let them proceed like that, don't you think? I'm going to take that last part from the article, the one considering if Sora believes or not in his death. If you feel like putting it again, put it, but please give some reason.

Xemnas' element (yes, again)
I was rereading the script of KH:CoM, when suddently I saw something I didn't remember.

"I don't know... But the scent was very similar to the Superior's. Exactly similar, if I may say."

This is Zexion's, refering to Riku. He's comparing Riku to their Superior, Xemnas.

Well, in the article, it says the Superior's element is "nothingness". Can someone confirm where it is refered to as such? In the game, in the Ultimania book, well, in any official resource? Because, I don't think Riku controls "nothingness", you know.

Compared to Riku, Xemnas' element could be either "twilight" (between light and dark, if you don't remember from the games) and "darkness". But, as Zexion and Vexen discuss in the game:

" Zexion: Riku once shouldered the darkness. Perhaps that made him half-dark.

Vexen: And that's why you mistook him for the Superior. "

We must consider that Xemnas is then half-dark - and, unless you want to hit me with some "he's half-dark and half-nothing" weird thing, I gotta say he's between light and dark - twilight.

"Nothingness"... it doesn't fit neither of Zexion's description.

Oh, and I found something else:

"He belongs to neither the light nor the dark, but walks the twilight between."

About Xemnas, the Superior. While the article considers that all Nobodies are in the twilight, to Riku be confounded especially with the Superior... he had Xehanort's darkness, and that obviously make them very close. But that "that made him half-dark/that's why you mistook him for the Superior" thingy doesn't leave my head.

What do you think? Should we consider Xemnas twilight or even darkness? Or keep the nothingess?


 * Sorry. No debate there. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 19:00, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * ditto. From my interperatation, Riku's scent is similar because he has darkness, the same darkness present in Xemnas (probably because they are both connected to Xehanort).  I don't think the Superior is half-dark (or that he even has any light, thus making "twilight" somewhat unlikely); it's that he and Riku share the same kind of darkness, a scent that Zexion recognizes as being the same and is probably very strong.  Zexion isn't sensing they are exactly the same, but because of the strength of the darkness in them, he initially mistook that darkness in Riku as Xemnas' darkness.  And just because Xemnas is filled with darkness doesn't mean his element is automatically darkness.  Keep it as nothingness. 24.84.208.203 01:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In the Ultimania guide, the 'Element' section of Xemnas' profile lists 無. As a Japanese speaker, I read this as "Element: None," meaning that he has no associated element. - Rikoshi 23:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My dictionary says the kanji 無 mu is "nothing, naught, nought, nil, zero", while 無い nai is "there isn't, doesn't have"...oh, you probably know better than me. urutapu 23:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact, back before Ultimania came out, the Japanese Wikipedia had "なし" (nashi) for Zexion's element to signify that he didn't have one. So yeah, there's a difference between mu and the actual lack of an element. Geg 01:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Huh, there's even an article on mu. I've heard mu can mean void, but the Japanese element is 空, so it's unlikely it's that. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 05:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Here're the scans, for anybody curious. And for me to not lose the link. Yes, they're acting like No. XIII is some big secret that certainly isn't revealed three hours in the game, unlike Xemnas. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 06:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Axel's Weapons
Technically, Axel's weapons are more similar to wind-and-fire wheels, not chakrams (i.e. they aren't thrown, but used as melee weapons). I would go as far as to say they are wind-and-fire wheels. Is there any official material stating that his weapons are chakrams? Jiminy's Journal lists him as carrying "a uniquely-shaped weapon," but that's about it. Divineline 18:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * They are thrown. Sources like Ultimanias also indicate them as chakrams in... katakana, I believe (so it's simply phonetic translation). '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 19:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah. . チャクラム. Cha ku ra mu. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 06:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You could call them a Cakuramu that can also be used a wind and fire wheel

The Organization and Playing Cards
If we arrange the members of the Organization XIII by rank and match them up with a corresponding playing card, there are a few things that seem to stand out.


 * A. Xemnas
 * 2. Xigbar
 * 3. Xaldin
 * 4. Vexen
 * 5. Lexaeus
 * 6. Zexion
 * 7. Sa'ix
 * 8. Axel
 * 9. Demyx
 * 0. Luxord
 * J. Marluxia
 * Q. Larxene
 * K. Roxas

Notice right away that Xemnas is the Ace, and Roxas is the King. Seems to make sense so far. Larxene, being the only female, lands the queen's spot. Also, Luxord, being the gambler of the group, is given the 10 spot. There might be more significant connections (possibly with tarot?) that should be looked into. Xagest 08:49, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Or not. Geg 21:07, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 * WP:NOR. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 22:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Make pics and descriptions for the diffrent nobody types
Really....this should have been done a longgggggg time ago. the only reason i could think of otherwise is that it would make the article too long...but then again,who wouldn't like the sheer exilaration of having all the org13 people and the nobody types on the same page-GRAHAMR
 * No. No. No. No. No. And no. For starters, the format would be ugly. Secondly, individual primitive Nobodies are not notable. '  (Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!) 05:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * thats a stupid thing to say. - Malomeat 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Meh?! What the hell do you mean by"Individual nobodies are not notable" and "the format would be ugly"?

Now im really starting to think that nobodies need a seprate page form 0rg13-GRAHAMR

Hey everyone I made a page just for Roxas you should check it out this is for all the people who think roxas should have his own page just search roxas and it will pop up --sar 04:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)