Talk:Organophosphate poisoning

Heading
The opening paragraph tells of organophosphates causing the "suicide impulse" in farmers. The article never elaborates on this further. Indeed, it seems to convey that farmers have used these chemicals as a way of committing suicide, not that they put in some impulse into the minds of these men to kill themselves, (seemingly implied by the opening). Apologies if I'm way off the track, but I think it might need a bit of clarification here.--120.16.88.190 (talk) 16:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I altered the sentence to remove this issue and inserted references that people in agrarian areas do commit suicide using OPs. I haven't found a reference for the assertion that it is "one of the most common causes of poisoning worldwide". Skingski (talk) 21:57, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

For my biology class at Boston College, I had to edit a wikipedia page. I chose to edit OP poisoning, so a significant amount of information has been added to this page. I apologize if I have misinterpreted some of the studies in my writing on OP poisoning. Widrickm (talk) 04:17, 2 November 2011 (UTC)Widrickm

Classmates' Comments
The first line is concise and gets to the point quickly, which is a good thing. I think it would benefit the article if there was an explanation of why ACh accumulation is bad so the reader understands why organophosphates are harmful. Also, you jump right into talking about AChE inhibition. Someone might not understand enzyme mechanisms and why AChE inhibition is harmful which could make the initial science talk overwhelming so I would put everything more in layman’s terms for ease of understanding. Under the “examples” section, maybe you could mention routes of exposure. I understand that these examples contain organophosphates but telling the reader how it gets to them is powerful. For example, if you say “organophosphates from insectides run off into our waters from farmlands and are recycled into the water treatment plants.” Obviously what you say will be more sophisticated and accurate but a description of how it gets into people will make the article more relevant for readers because they realize their vulnerability. PON1 influence: if possible, include information about adult PON1 concentration and the toxic concentration of organophosphates so readers can have numbers to make sense of the information and understand why the topic is relevant. Ginger Jake: I know you already mentioned how ACh intoxication occurs but I think it would be helpful to mention again how it happens and why organophosphates can be debilitating. Even if the description were brief, “ACh accumulation happens after AChE is inhibited, etc.” just as a reminder to the reader about how the mechanism works. Governmental review: what are the effects of chronic organophosphate exposure in adults? Are there any mild symptoms that may cause the government to reconsider its allowance of organophosphates? Nicole — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockaxis3 (talk • contribs) 20:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Great job on the article! I think the intro is nice and easy to understand no matter what background a Wiki user has. My main suggestion would be an alteration in the organization of part of the article. You have all the examples listed right at the beginning in bullet form. I think it would be a good idea to not only list examples, but to also cite some studies showing the effects of those specific chemicals. In the Health Effects section, adding sections would help with organization. Subsections can be “Reproductive effects,” “Effects on fetuses and infants,” and “Neurotoxic effects." There is a very long paragraph that can be divided into a few smaller ones under "Neurotoxic effects." You can make a new paragraph for each of the neurotoxic effects possibly beginning with each of the following sentences:
 * “Cholinergic syndrome occurs in acute poisonings…”
 * “The intermediate syndrome (IMS) appears in the interveal between…”
 * “In a small percentage of cases, roughly two weeks after exposure…”
 * “COPIND occurs without cholinergic symptoms…”

You might want to create more Wiki links to or write brief definitions for certain words that the general public are not familiar with (cholinergic synapses, muscarinic, cholinesterases, nicotinic receptors, etc). In several paragraphs, just by looking at them, there are no linked words, so creating some will be helpful for users. Another minor edit that can be made is in the governmental review section where references are linked right after the sentence instead of there being a citation that brings you to the Reference section of the article.

Lastly, according to the assignment requirements, I think we need a section that talks about future research. For that section I’m sure you can discuss alternatives to organophosphate insecticides. Also you wrote under health effects that “More research is being done on animals and human fetuses to determine the effects of OP’s during critical periods of development” and then you discuss aviation lubricating oils. You can probably move that line and the paragraph on aviation oils to the future research section and expand by saying what else scientists are attempting to discover.

Overall, it's a well written article that explains everything well! I think the style or writing is very appropriate for a Wikipedia page as it not only is easy to understand for the public, but also goes into details that people studying science, like us, will find informative! Kbell90 (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)Kbell90

The image for the article, showing phosphoric acid and details of its covalent bonds, is not at all relevant to the article. Phosphoric acid is not an organophosphate. This should be replaced with an image of the general structure of organophosphates. 108.180.194.162 (talk) 18:32, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi there. So far, the article is quite informative and concise. However, I think a bit more information could be added regarding the effects it may have on children --- Perhaps as a result of their activities and or diets could be related to a lesser or high risk of adverse effects of OPs? This link could be helpful: Effects of Organophosphates on Children` I also think it would be interesting to see if other countries besides the US have any legislation related to OP levels of exposure and use. Mbeez (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi! The article has a great base structure to it, but I was most focused on the Research section. I understand that research is ever-changing and there might not be too much information available, but it would be amazing if this section could be expanded a bit more. You mention the aviation lubricants and I was wondering if it was possible to expand this a bit more, looking to whether the Aerotoxic Syndrome has been definitively linked to contaminated bleed air, as mentioned. Also, is there a source for this theory? Egilmore15 (talk) 19:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)Egilmore15

Hello! I really enjoyed this article and thought it contained a lot of great overarching information on a topic that is being more and more heavily researched now! Just a few wording issues: the first paragraph (which I believe should be very strong considering it opens the article) is great. The only thing I think could be a bit better is the last sentence which states there are "about 1 million OP poisonings per year with several thousand resulting in fatalities annually." I think this could be reworded to" approximately 1 million OP poisonings occur each year with several thousand poisonings resulting in fatality. In addition, under causes there is a sentence which states: "Specifically in the blood, metabolites of cholinesterases, such as butyrylcholinesterase (BuChE) activity in plasma, neuropathy target esterase (NTE) in lymphocytes, and of acetylcholinesterase (AChE) activity in red blood cells.[19]” This is not a complete sentence. Two other informational issues is have are under the causes section and the historical examples section of the site. Under causes, the first sentence talks about how OP's disintegrate quickly in air and light, but further talks about how residues stay on fruits. This is a bit confusing and I wish there were more explanation about how they disintegrate in air and light, why this happens, and how this is then safe. Lastly I wish more symptomology was included under the two historical examples listed. 136.167.255.105 (talk) 00:27, 3 February 2015 (UTC)Harleengs26

Organophosphate Pesticides Reports

 * Epidemiological study of the relationships between exposure to organophosphate pesticides and indices of chronic peripheral neuropathy, and neuropsychological abnormalities in sheep farmers and dippers.Phase 1. Development and validation of an organophosphate uptake model for sheep dippers by C Sewell and others. Institute of Occupational Medicine Research Report TM/99/02a
 * Epidemiological study of the relationships between exposure to organophosphate pesticides and indices of chronic peripheral neuropathy, and neuropsychological abnormalities in sheep farmers and dippers. Phase 2. Cross-sectional exposure response study of sheep-dippers by A Pilkington and others. Institute of Occupational Medicine Research Report TM/99/02b
 * Epidemiological study of the relationships between exposure to organophosphate pesticides and indices of chronic peripheral neuropathy, and neuropsychological abnormalities in sheep farmers and dippers. Phase 3. Clinical neurological, neurophysiological and neurophysiological study by A Pilkington and others. Institute of Occupational Medicine Research Report TM/99/02c


 * Not sure why this was in the article? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Expansion on suicide topic
You mentioned that many farmers have used organophosphates to commit intentional suicide, but did not say why. I've read in multiple articles and documentaries that they do it because of the regulations of large food corporations such as Monsanto. With building pest resistance to pesticides, they have to keep using more and more and the small landowners cannot keep up with larger landowners in terms of profit.

Here are a couple links to articles that mention these types of unfortunate situations:

http://www.seattleorganicrestaurants.com/vegan-whole-foods/indian-farmers-committing-suicide-monsanto-gm-crops/

http://www.environmentalhealthnews.org/ehs/news/2014/oct/pesticides-depression

Maybe you could pull information from sources 3, 4, and 5 of the pesticide poisoning wikipedia page as well? Or link certain keywords to that page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jak0313 (talk • contribs) 17:36, 31 January 2015‎ (UTC)
 * see Farmers' suicides in India - has more to do with the "liberalization" of the Indian economy, leaving farmers without good advice and without reasonable access to banks. Jytdog (talk) 21:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Some Suggestions
I want to first start by saying that I think this is a very informative article! It helps people to understand the dangers of OP poisoning and how it is present in their daily lives!.

I have a few suggestions:

- In your section titled "Neurotoxic Effects", in the fourth paragraph, third sentence, you have written "Symptoms continue to worse..." when I think you meant to say "Symptoms continue to worsen"

- I think you could maybe expand upon your section on OP poisoning on developing animals. You could include information about how all of this could affect pregnant women and the developing fetus. I saw that you had this written above in the reproductive section, so if there is nothing additional to write in the "Developing Animal" section, maybe you could merge it with the "Reproductive Effects" section.

- I think you diagnosis section could be expanded upon. You mention that current testing only tests for two of the most common OPs. I think you could further expand on the implications of this and how diagnosis needs to change and how it can be bettered in the future.

Sej942 (talk) 02:00, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

More Suggestions
I also think this is a very informative article. The only suggestion I have is that you can now expand on the effects of OP exposure on infants and children.

User:bellre 2 February 2015 — Preceding undated comment added 16:25, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Commenters
Are the commentors here related to one another? is this a class activity or something? thanks Jytdog (talk) 20:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, this article appears to be targeted for improvement as a homework project for an undergraduate class at some college. The critical component will be the degree to which the instructor is knowledgeable of the topic and Wikipedia style.--Smokefoot (talk) 01:21, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Separation of acute versus chronic poisoning ... fails NPOV?
Hi,

It is very strange that this article seems to include almost nothing about the issue of chronic organophosphate exposure from the standpoint of public health (such as cases one has heard of in the past of sheep farmers exposed to sheep dip in their jobs over the years). It is like an article about car exhaust pollution that focused on people intentionally killing themselves with car exhaust, and nearly ignoring -- perhaps obscuring -- issues of much wider concern about global pollution, regulations, treaties, methods of limiting the problem.

Am I just paranoid, or is this reminding me of articles about tobacco one has seen which don't mention that it may be linked to lung cancer or heart disease, and focus on how nicotine may be a cure for alzheimer's disease etc. Not saying this for a fact but please some editor who knows something about this subject have a look, OK? Thx Createangelos (talk) 00:58, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Refs for "chronic poisoning"? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 01:31, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Moving this here
Have moved here. I am having trouble figuring out what these refs are?


 * Chronic exposure—multiple exposures over time, from a few weeks to many years —may manifest itself in very different ways from acute exposure. The toxicity (“ability of a substance to produce adverse effects” ), is more complex and subtle. Acute--one immediate exposure --poisoning

Are you referring to this ref?? And if so were does it discuss the chronic toxicity of organophosphates? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:18, 25 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Approximately 99% of those deaths occur in the developing world.

This ref does not refer to OGs but to pesticide generally? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:20, 25 March 2017 (UTC)
 * This article is not about pesticide poisoning generally. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 11:25, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Glyphosate?
"While it can be described as an organophosphorus compound, glyphosate is not an organophosphate ester but a phosphanoglycine, and it does not inhibit cholinesterase activity." source May be worth removing it from article. Ratel (talk) 13:08, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I removed it. I think we've removed similar content from organonphosphate articles in the past, but probably not at this one yet. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:23, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. That was my though initially. IARC sort of lists it as one
 * But from a toxicology point of view I think they are mistaken. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 18:40, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Interesting .... but how so? What evidence is there that glyphosate acts like an organophosphate from a toxicological POV? Ratel (talk) 19:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It does NOT act like an organophosphate from a toxicological perspective.
 * This source says it is about five organophosphates and lists glyphosate as one. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 19:52, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah, glyphosate definitely isn't an acetylcholinesterase inhibitor, to which organophosphate in this article title refers to. It also doesn't have a designated chemical family name either. Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:41, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

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General comments
Reference 2 is the basis for much of the lede. I have read the article and could not find two pieces of information supposedly supported by that reference. Perhaps I missed it, but I could not find where it is stated that organophosphates are the most common cause of poisoning worldwide, nor did I see anything about prevention by banning very toxic types of organophosphates.

Combining the numbers from References 2 and 3 results in some confusion. The article says that nearly three million poisonings per year results in two hundred thousand deaths for a death rate of 15%. This is obviously incorrect.


 * I agree w this poster completely, reference 2 states specifically, "Organophosphorus pesticide self-poisoning is an important clinical problem in rural regions of the developing world, and kills an estimated 200 000 people every year. Unintentional poisoning kills far fewer people but is a problem in places where highly toxic organophosphorus pesticides are available. Medical management is difficult, with case fatality generally more than 15%."
 * That same reference goes on to specify, "Organophosphorus pesticide self-poisoning is a major clinical and public-health problem across much of rural Asia.1–3 Of the estimated 500 000 deaths from self-harm in the region each year,4 about 60% are due to pesticide poisoning.3 Many studies estimate that organophosphorus pesticides are responsible for around two-thirds of these deaths5—a total of 200 000 a year"
 * The OBVIOUS ERROR in the article includes the quote re: 200 deaths as "15% of 3 MILLION" which is mathematically impossible.  The number I suspect that the author was referencing was the 200,000 fatalities number, which is still misleading, in that this statistic only accounts for OP deaths arising from deliberate self harm.  I do not have access to the book in reference 3, and still haven't found a an article which provides a more comprehensive and better delineated summary of TOTAL OP poisonings.  I would edit the article myself, however, given that this is NOT my area of expertise, and that I am a medical professional, I do not feel comfortable making a direct edit on this topic and without further experience with wikipedia editing.  Thanks.  (KE- M.D. NY)FavrilMD (talk) 14:34, 30 September 2020 (UTC)


 * It's not an error. The author is just reporting two different things - the number of reported fatalities and separately the reported case fatality rates. It was just not made very clear. There's significant mixing of the data, the total deaths vs. the number of deaths from suicide, the weak epidemiological data in places where this is more likely to occur, and most importantly, the multitude of reported numbers. 200,000 of the total deaths are sourced as being from suicide in the Lancet article.
 * The Lancet source reports the fatality rate of 15-30% according to 2 other sources it cites (a Tropical Medicine article and one from BMJ ) each which then report on other reported rates of death. The second source (#3) is a Massachusetts General (MGH) book reviewing critical care. In a very brief section MGH says overall deaths are >300,000, still not 15% but certainly closer.
 * Generally the conclusion is either that there are many more fatalities than reported, the total numbers exposed are smaller, or that overall fatality rates are lower than reported. Individual series may in fact be as high as 30%, but it may not be applicable to all exposures. However that's not a statement we can make. I can make an edit, but the question is what change do we make? MartinezMD (talk) 18:36, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Finally, there is a section in which organophosphate poison is named as the agent used to poison the Skripals. The Novichok agents are organophosphorus compounds but NOT organophosphates. Silverchemist (talk) 15:57, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Organophosphorous redirects to organophosphate. Ratel (talk) 23:14, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Novichok agents are NOT organophosphates. They are, however, Organophosphorus compounds. The difference between "-rous" and "-rus" is significant in chemical nomenclature.Silverchemist (talk) 14:54, 27 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The article says "one of the most common" not "the most common". In the US, where I suspect the rate is much lower than other places in the world, it is still the 10th most commonly reported agent. The percentage listed is incorrect as you bring up. My initial look at the incidence bring up varying total deaths, with some sources saying 300,000 deaths (10%) as opposed to 200,000 deaths (~7%). Regional fatality rates should be discussed as well. The US has a very low fatality rate (<2%), while rural areas in India are very high (60-70% depending on the source). So much of the fatality rates may have to do with access to intensive medical care and particular agent. MartinezMD (talk) 21:02, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Removal of cleanup template in Society & culture section
I added my reasoning in the edit comment, but I am making a note here as well, that there were formerly concerns about the section being too oriented toward the USA. Since then, several other countries have been added. More subsections are welcome if anyone feels that other regions are still underrepresented. Just-a-can-of-beans (talk) 01:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)