Talk:Ori (Stargate)

Ori
Is it Origin or Origen.
 * Should be Origin. That's the title of the episode where it was introduced.

I thought it'd be spelled "Aurrei" or something like that, but no big dealKarmafist 14:29, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Eh, that's the official spelling, even though it doesn't fit.---b 09:28, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry but the official spelling is Orii, i saw it on the Stargate SG-1 website.
 * uhuh, and where exactly can i see this? scifi.com says Ori, not Orii. if your right, then we can move the page. Carterhawk 06:51, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * If the article's title is "Ori", I think it's rather stupid to have "Orii" right below it. WayneC 16:20, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The official spelling is "Ori". -b 23:02, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Gateworld
 * SciFi
 * StargateWiki

So um, does Stargate air early overseas or something?

I dont think Prior is a species name, so much as a Title for those who are local servants of the Ori.


 * I think it's fairly clear that the Prior's are just modified humans, when Orlen is talking to the prior Demeres he refers to the prior's wife and children, indicating that he left behind a human life to become a Prior. Cheezykins 21:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe ranking works: +Ori +-Doci +--Prior +---Citizen this gives you a structure of say....

+Ori+ |        |+|        Doci         Doci         Doci |           |             -|      PriorPrior--+--PriorPrior |         |         |          |     Township  Township  Township    Township

Before putting in that the Ancients, who may or may not even be aware of the Ori, are preventing them from using their powers, it would be prudent to wait until such information becomes available. --- Carterhawk 00:17, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * According to GateWorld, the Doci is an individual who is cheif of the Prior and mouth of the Ori. -b 22:51, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Who says the ori call the alterans The Others? wouldnt they know them as the Alterans?

Quick question. Do the Priors and Doci require seperate pages even though their descriptions are fairly small?
 * The priors, yes, *they* are going to be the heavy in this season, so they should have their own page, we will learn a lot about them. the doci, not so much.....a blurb on the ori page and the prior page on how the doci relates to each... Carterhawk 04:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I read somewhere, i think elsewhere on Wiki, that Alterans is either latin or Ancient for "Others" so when the ancients or Ori refer to themselves as Alterans, theyre calling themselves "The others" I dont think we ever actually hear the Ori, priors, or Doci talking about ancients and calling them Alterans. Adria only ever calls them "The Ancients" or "The others" but I think she was using "the others" term generally, which could have meant "The other" Ori, or "The other" Alterans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Baaleos (talk • contribs) 11:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

For the last time, it's "Ori", pronounced "Or-EYE", according to SG-1 writer Robert Cooper. Gateworld Interview. -b 20:07, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
 * That's how they say it in Avalon (the episode). &mdash; Ilγαηερ   (Tαlκ)  03:25, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

The cover of Blue Oyster Cult's Fire of Unknown Origin (1981) features robed figures who are strikingly similar to Priors. Fire is obviously an omnipresent symbol in the Origin religion. Has anyone else made this connection or heard any speculation on the possible influence of this album on the creation of the Ori? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.46.105 (talk) 10:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Gerak's conversion

 * As yet, the greatest success of the Auri in the Milky Way has been the conversion of Gerak, head of the Free Jaffa Nation, to Origin and his transformation into a Prior.
 * Changed to:
 * With the conversion of Gerak to Origin, and his transformation into a Prior, the Ori potentially gain a foothold in the Free Jaffa Nation.
 * It is as yet unclear what might happen and what the attitudes of the Council and the Free Jaffa towards Gerak's new composture might be. Speculation calls for civil war and the use of the Jaffa's military forces by the Ori. Let's wait with thrilling anticipation until nov 9th. Why don't the make cliffhangers like this on Atlantis? -- Zanaq 17:29, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Alterans . ..
Isnt using Alteran to contrast against Ori incorrect because the Ori are a subset of the Alterans. Shouldnt Ancients be used because Ancients is the specific name of the Gatebuilders of our galaxy, and the builders of Atlantis. Aside from all of that the use of Alteran is largely speculative, within and outside of the show.
 * in that logic using Gate Builders or Ancestors would be equaly appropriate, Alterran is the what they call themselves. Carterhawk 02:34, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Doesn't Ancients refer to the group, with Alterans and Ori being sub-sets of the group? (much as during the Civil War, Americans was the large group with Northerners and Southerners being the sub-sets of the group.)  Dr. Jackson has been heard stating that the Ori are at war with the Alterans...maybe they used to be a sect of Alterans, but now they are at war with them. --Tim4christ17 15:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding their numbers, it is stated that the Ori/Alteran deadlock is evidence of roughly equal numbers on each side. But since the Ori are empowered by the worship of their followers, wouldn't the deadlock actually suggest that there must be more Alterans who, lacking such empowerment, would likely have less power individually? (2006-12-19 24:06 UTC)

Merge with Flames of Enlightenment
I think we should merge the article "Flames of Enlightenment" with this article since the Flames are the Ori themself. Diabound00 09:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that is merely speculation. Zanaq 12:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Plus, how many times do you hear "Flames of Enlightenment" on the show versus "Ori"? I think we have the article centered around the right concept. ~ Ross (ElCharismo) 20:54, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Other uses
Why do we have "For other uses, see Ori (disambiguation)"? I don't think you can possibly get on this page by accident in case you're not looking for the stargate ones.Cristan
 * edit: It has been fixed :-). Cristan 08:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

about major change
This recently happened -- massive trimming -- and i was wondering if any of you feel this should be reverted. pay attention to the edit summary. --  Alfakim  --  talk   15:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It was discussed (although briefly) on WT:WPSG. If there is anything I cut out that you think should be included in the summary, please add it back, but if we're going to have a main article on it, we shouldn't have more than a paragraph as summary. --Tango 18:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I was the one who asked for that. Mabe it shouldn't have been quite so massive, but the section as it was was rediculous.  Any deleted info that we feel is important should probably be added to the O+ri tech page, not this one.  Tobyk777 20:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Despoiled
I corrected the summary to say that the Ori are ascended ancients instead of humans and removed the POV and Spoilers (the third paragraph). 83.215.112.157 08:47, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a correction? The Ori are NOT Ancients!!!  The Ori are at war with the Ancients.  Unfortunately it seems that too many people doing the cleanup for this article as well as the Alteran/Ancient article are confusing the terms.  It has NOT been established whether Alterans is a name for the entire species as a whole (Ori and Ancient) or a subset (as one person described like the Civil War with Northerners and Southerners).
 * Again, the Ori are NOT Ancients! Please go back to the earlier episodes.   In fact Ancients only refers to those who returned to Earth.  It was given to them by the early Romans (actually they were called The Ancient Ones).  The people in the Pegasus galaxy call them the Ancestors.  I'm guessing the fact that it has become such a blanket term to describe the "good guy" ascended beings in the Milky Way and Pegasus confuses people who watch the show without paying proper attention.  Calling the Ori Ancients too is like saying that Daniel and Anubis were Ancients.  Oh, better yet, how about all the Abydonians that Oma helped ascend?  Let's call them Ancients.  How 'bout it?
 * The season 8 diner scene in "Threads" Daniel asks who the other folks in the diner are. Oma replies that they are "The Others".  Daniel then asks "you mean Ancients".  Oma the replies, "SOME OF THEM".  Aarlin81 22:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I had always wondered what that line meant now I get it. 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes people have been adding all kinds of junk to both articles. A little while back I think someone wrote that Merlin was an Ori.  Come on.  If people don't know what they're talking about, then learn it, or don't, but don't write crap on wikipedia people.  Tobyk777 07:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Completely agree. And let's not forget that when Adria was talking to Vala she used the word 'Ancient' in contrast to the word 'Ori'. Noneofyourbusiness 22:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Removing Latin phrases
I will remove the Latin phrases from Orici's article for reasons i have mentioned at adria article. And by the way, how do you know Merlin is not an Ori?89.32.1.82 12:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Because the show clearly says "Merlin was an Ancient" (that's a direct quote from "Avalon"), and Ancient and Ori are two different things, so he can't be an Ori. Clear now? --Tango 14:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

not quite.89.32.1.82 16:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

What bit isn't clear? --Tango 16:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How do people know that Merlin was an ancient and NOT an Ori? Because the same actor which plays Merlin/Myrddin is the same actor that played the Ancient counsel member Moros in the episode "Before I Sleep".  He's also listed in the Ancients article, under Known Ancients, as Moros/Myrddin/Merlin (by me of course).  Aarlin81 20:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there any reason to believe Moros is Merlin other than them having the same actor? If not, I suggest listing them separately in the known ancients page, and just commenting that they are played by the same guy. --Tango 22:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Lots of IPs have been adding incorrect info to the Ancient and Ori articles lately. How could someone be involved with SG enough to write about it, but yet be not involved enough to understand it.  That's beyond me.  Nevertheless, I think we should ask for semiprotection on both pages.  Tobyk777 23:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There are enough of us watching them to revert anything that needs it. I don't think it's worth semi-protection. There are IPs making good edits to them too. --Tango 00:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Is there any information to support that Moros is Merlin/Myrddin? Sorry but that's a Season 10 spoiler buddy.  Here's a hint though.....The Pegasus Project.  SHHHHHhhhhhhhhhh....  If anyone wants to edit out that sentence about which episode go right ahead.  All of my edits are signed, well most are.  Aarlin81 01:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Moros is Merlin, they were the same actor. Also, Merlin was stated to have been an anceint who returned from Atlantis.  I think it is assumed that they are the same.  (Another assumption like this was when SG-1 found a puddle jumper and Oneil used it to destroy a hatak.  They never said it was a puddle jumper but it was obvious it was the same ship.  This is the same type of thing.)  Although unclear, watchers who have paid close atention based on the clues already stated here I think should have been able to figure out the Moros was Merlin.  Tobyk777 05:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Until it's specifically stated on the show, that's still speculation. A puddle jumper is obviously a puddle jumper, but various actors have appeared on the show as different characters. (Generally, wearing different makeup, but not always). That they're played by the same actor should definately be mentioned, but you can't say they're the same person. If the spoilers for The Pegasus Project (That's this Friday's episode of SG-1, yes?) specifically say Moros is Merlin, then that can be said in the article, but it can't be stated as fact until Friday. --Tango 14:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, OK, let's get this out of the way. TOLD YA SO!!!  Amazingly, I figured out the connection LONG BEFORE any spoilers were ever written for Season 10.  Hell, I made that little contribution (to the Ancients article) early in Season 9, baby.  Although, I did kinda think (very early on) that Morgan le Fay would turn out to be Melia.  You remember Melia right?  She was the holographic greeting in the pilot episode and the [asian] female counsel member in "Before I Sleep".  OK, I'm all done.  Aarlin81 02:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Ascension and the Plague section
The first paragraph of this section is completely WRONG. Ok maybe not completely however it does read incorrectly and this seems to have been carried over to SciFi's SCIFIPEDIA.
 * 'It appears however that the final jump towards Ascension was made by necessity when the Ancients contracted a deadly plague of unknown origin.'

The actual "final leap to ascension" (en masse) came after the Alterans/Atlantians RETURNED to Earth from the Pegasus galaxy. The sentence above doesn't make sense as the Ancients escaped the plague by fleeing TO the Pegasus galaxy. It has only been theorized that some may have ascended during this time (which may have lead to them researching ascension). The second paragraph was also removed but entirely by mistake. It should be moved to a subheading under the Ori Technology article, possibly titled Biological Warfare. Aarlin81 20:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, where to start. Firstly, there is no evidence to support your claim that the Ancients fled to the Pegasus Galaxy to avoid the plague, its entirely possible, but at the moment is entirely without proof and therefore you shouldnt be quoting it as a fact. Secondly, the Lanteans that returned to Earth and then Ascended did so long after the Milky Way Ancients had already ascended. In '6x22 Full Circle (time index 18:00)' Daniel Jackson says of the Ancients 'they were wiped out by a plague that was sweeping across the galaxy, many learned to Ascend, and the rest died out' - As I said when I reverted, this section is accurate based on what we currently know. I hope that clears this up for you.
 * --Sencerd 16:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Another thing, I was just going over your edits and I see you've changed all the instances of 'Lanteans' to 'Lantians', why? They are called Lanteans because the planet Atlantis is on is called Lantea - I dont mean to be rude, but as far as I can see all your edits are making incorrect and negative changes, maybe you should consider researching your facts before going ahead and editing.
 * --Sencerd 16:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, there is evidence that they had left because of a plague. In fact it's all over the Ancients/Alteran article.  Ayiana who was left behind was infected.  There are also mentions in the show that the Ancients had restarted life in the Milky Way to wipe out the plague (a necessary evil some might say).  We know that there was a plague.  Perhaps you believe that it happened after they got back?  Since the plague affects humans too...see whaere I'm going with this.  However, I think your understanding is a bit off.  It doesn't mention specificly that they had ascended as a result of the plague.  It simply states (in a new sentenced if you watch with subtitles) that many learned to ascended and the rest died out.  We learned in Season 10 from Ganos Lal (Morgan Le Fay) that many went into seclusion (to meditate) where they learned to ascended.  The others started new civilizations, interbred, so on and so forth.  Did he mention Pegasus or Atlanits despite the fact a Lost City was mentioned on the tablet?  Daniel's brief history of the Ancients has a LOT of gaps in it.  Talk about speculation.


 * In regards to changing LantEANs to LantIANs, did you also see that I had changed over-uses of Ancients and Alterans to Lanteans first? It was changed to LantIANs due to closed captioning and the oft-used pronounciation of LAN-shee-AN.  It wouldn't be the first time the show has changed a spelling or how a word is pronounced.  These changes were made after going all day on only 2.5 hours of sleep and after just seeing the latest episode.  After a decent night sleep, I did realize this was rather silly as closed captioning is often wrong and that the planet's name was spelled Lantea (confirmed at Gateworld.net).  That one was a goof on my part.
 * Aarlin81 01:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Daniel was ascended at the time and had access to all the knowledge of the universe, I think we can assume he wasn't speculating when he clearly stated that when the plague hit, most died out and some ascended, therefore we can safely say this is a fact until someone in the show specifically states otherwise. As for Ayiana, maybe she just didnt want to go with the others to Pegasus and stayed behind, then contracted the plague years later, you're jumping to conclusions based on what you think, whereas I am stating facts, please please please just admit that you made a mistake and this sentence is accurate based on the facts that have been stated in the show, when Atlantis left, who went with it, none of that matters, the point is that this section of the article is accurate and I have quoted the exact timestamp of the exact episode that proves this is the case. Just let it go.
 * --Sencerd 08:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually both points are valid. There is in fact evidence to support both.  The plague was in fact the reason that the Ancients left for Pegasus.  It wasn't merely that the poles had shift and Antarctica had been covered with ice.  The city had a shield and puddle jumpers that would have protected them from environment.  It has really only been theorized if and how many may have ascended when the plague swept across the galaxy.  The ascension through necessity though is a point that can be debated, as I don't recall this being stated in any episode.  Well not right off hand anyway.  The show does make clear that they learned to ascend.  Whether or not this was a direct result of the plague or if those who learned before the rest left for Pegasus were well on their way anyway.
 * I hate to bring up Ayiana has she's already been mentioned, but she did not seemed to be having too much difficulty with the plague. It was healing Jack, Carter and the rest, that weakened her body and allowed the disease to ravage her body.  Until then her own immune system was holding it back.  Watch it again, it's there.  It's kind of like the X-Men's Wolverine.  Most of his healing ability is actually occupied with conteracting the poisonous effects of the adimentium.
 * The wording of the section is what I have the most problem with. Especially the ascension through necessity.  All this talk about speculation, the show itself does this too.  That's what keeps people watching.  To find out what's really going on.


 * Whoever you are, you say that the Ancients left for Pegasus because of the plague, whats that based on? when has anything that even remotely suggests that that is the case been mentioned, that is 100% pure speculation. I am quoting what Daniel said, we can argue over wether he was right or wrong till the cows come home, but the fact is that he stated it as a fact and therefore we can safely assume he is correct until we have evidence otherwise. If you dont allow this section in the article, then we will have to remove basically the entire article, as you could argue that 99% of it 'might' not be correct. All we have to go on is what we've been told in the show so far, thats what im doing, im not speculating, im not theorising, im sticking to what we know.


 * Once again, please can we leave the whole Atlantis/Ayiana thing aside, as it has nothing to do with this discussion. If you can sight evidence with a valid source that suggests what Daniel said is incorrect, please do so, I will gladly submit the point and we can change the section, if not, leave it be.
 * --Sencerd 17:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, SENCERD, you seem to have forgotten that your edits to the discussion are logged as well as your edits to the main article. At 11:39, 1 August 2006 it appears you took it upon yourself to remove a discussion entry from another user that included the information that you had requested.  As such I am reposting it again.
 * Daniel - "Why'd they leave? Um, who knows? We know the Ancients on Earth were suffering from a plague. Uh, maybe some of them were trying to start over, seeding life in a new galaxy. Maybe that's what Ancients do. The point is, we know where they went."
 * If you wish further information from any episode such as this one, you can find the transcripts for most of them at GateWorld.net -TheDevilYouKnow 13:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sigh, I hadn't 'forgotten' anything THEDEVILYOUKNOW, I removed it because this is SUPPOSED to be discussing a completely different topic, but ok if you want to argue the toss, thats Daniel speculating, he says 'who knows?' and then lists possibilities, therefore the comment cannot be viewed as fact, until we know more about it you cant say for certain. Right now thats cleared up can we please stay on topic, that is, the sentence at the start of this section and its validity. So unless you have something useful to add maybe you should go and try to clever elsewhere.
 * --Sencerd 20:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Then I shouldn't have to remind you that this is a discussion section and is not an article page. While it may not have seemed relevant to major topic of discussion, it was a reply as to the to possible reason why they had left the Milky Way.  I also shouldn't have to remind you that editting or deleting another user' comments whether signed or not without their expressed permission is considered "Unacceptable Behavior on Wikipedia".   For further reading please see the Talk Page Guidelines. -TheDevilYouKnow (Talk) 03:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you want to try and be clever to me do it on my talk page, this is, as you said, a discussion, not a place for you to make like the wikipedia police and tell me what to do.
 * --Sencerd 12:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * When what he has to say to you involves this talk page it is perfectly acceptable to do it on here. Please do not delete entries on the talk page unless they are vandalism or the like. What you deleted was not even close to vandalism and so you violated a rule. Futhermore, you are treading very close to not being civil, please calm yourself down Sencard and return when you are more clear headed. Konman72 22:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems that like most people I take offense when being condescended to (I would also consider this not being civil), I apologise for removing the comment, it wasnt done maliciously, it was done as an attempt to keep this discussion on topic, but it seems that most people are more interested in completely seperate topics. So if no one has anything further to add, this section of the article will remain as it is until we have more info on the subject that contradicts what we already know.
 * Might I also remind you that wikipedia doesn't have rules, it has policies, the distinction between these 2 things should be recognised.
 * --Sencerd 10:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't argue semantics.
 * Exmaple -- The five pillars of Wikipedia: a quick rundown of the 5 key rules you need to start editing. Don't worry, it's easy.

Also I'd like to go back to your example that you gave from the episode "Full Circle". The statement was that many learned to ascended. As the process of learning to ascended can ultimately take time, as we saw in the Atalantis episode "Epiphany". Let's now talk about your own specualtions. You put forth that Daniel while ascended would have all the knowledge of the Ancients. Not so as stated by Oma. I do agree that it is possible that Daniel was giving a brief history rather than a single thought. Also as the tablet you mentioned talks about a LOST CITY of the Ancients it's easy to conclude that the tablet would have been written sometime after their return. Obviously they wouldn't call it lost before they left for the Milky Way. Seeing as how their return coincides with Ra's timeline presented in the film (see the extended version) it's likely that sometime later Ra happened upon the tablet. Given what we now know from Morgan le Fay and the time table I just presented your own speculation that Daniel's words were talking about simply the plague time frame seem to be innacurate. See it IS the the little details and clues you need to pay more attention to. There's a wealth of information there if you're just willing to put the pieces together. If need be this issue could be left opened for further discussion with other editors or possibly a survey of what conclusion(s) they have reached. Until, of course, the writers present us with an undeniable history.
 * TheDevilYouKnow (Talk) 19:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, it seems to me the debate is between thinking the Ancients ascended because of the plague or they fled the MW because of the plague correct? If so then the first one doesn't make much sense. If they ascended after their return to the MW due to the plague all of mankind would be dead. Remember, their return to the MW was after the destruction of all life and subsequent regrowth into humanity. Human society was already there, just very primitive. Now, given the Ancients similarity to our physiology, if they were afflicted with a plague then we would have suffered from the same one. So the timeline goes thusly


 * Ancients build civilization in MW
 * Are stricken with a plague
 * Civilization crumbles
 * Flee to Pegasus
 * Return
 * Ascend


 * It is possible that many ascended during the plague times as well and the Lanteans are a subgroup of the overarcing Ancient society, but it seems obvious that their ascension was not based on the plague after their return to the MW. If it was then all of humanity would not be in existance. Konman72 21:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I havnt made any assumptions, I didnt say that Daniel was all knowing, I said he had access to all the knowledge of the universe, which we know to be true, "It's all... out there", and why is it so hard to understand that different Ancients may have done different things? Some ascended, some died, some left for Pegasus, whys that so difficult to grasp? And we still dont know for certain they went to Pegasus because of the plague.
 * Here's what we do know for CERTAIN, based on current evidence, without any speculation at all:
 * 1. The Ancients left thier home galaxy and came to the Milky Way. (Avalon)
 * 2. A plague was sweeping the galaxy and wiping out the Ancients, some of them ascended and the rest died. (Full Circle)
 * 3. Millions of years later, the Lanteans returned to Earth, some of them ascended, some lived on Earth and some left Earth to live elsewhere. (Pegasus Project and many other quotes throughout Atlantis S1/S2 and SG1 S10)
 * . Somewhere in all this, Atlantis leaves for Pegasus, all we know is it left 'Several million years ago', we have no way of knowing how this event fits into the timeline.


 * Those are facts based on what the writers have told us so far, that isnt speculation, its based on direct quotes from the show without any interpretation. The other things you are taking about are speculation, as follows:
 * 1. Atlantis left for Pegasus because of the plague. Daniel spontaneously speculated on this, it isnt known for certain.
 * 2. Ayiana had the same plague when she was found in Antarctica - We dont know for certain that it was the same plague.


 * If you want to speculate that Daniel was wrong in what he said, thats fine, but that IS speculation, he presented what he said as a fact, and we have no reason to doubt what he said is true. If thats your opinion, thats fine, Im all for freedom of thought, but this article has to represent facts, I have my own ideas about how things happened, but I dont try to impose them on the article, I stick to what we know.
 * --Sencerd 09:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm totally lost at this point. Can Both of you present what you are wanting to change/keep so that I am caught up to speed :P. I understand that Sencerd thinks the ascension was due to teh plague, which I partially agree with. I also agree that the Lanteans returned and then ascended not due to the plague. Beyond that I don't see much disagreement here, but I may be confused. Konman72 09:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Konman72: I think your solution is best (the edit you've made), as the information regarding the Alterans ascension isnt really necesary in the Ori article. I'm happy with it as it is now (pending speeeling and gramar corrections :P)
 * --Sencerd 18:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Cool, glad I could help out. I actually wasn't trying to solve the debate, it just seemed like things had gotten forced in so I took them out :P . Yeah, it definitely needs some grammar changes, but I couldn't get it worked out in my head so somebody else might have better luck. Konman72 22:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Does anyone think this is a reference to the plague that the Ori (may) have inflicted on the Ancients all those millions years ago? It occurs to me it describes the Ancients being "Cast out" into the Milky Way, where they're hatred "Bloomed", corrupted by this Hatred, they "Poisoned" all they touched (Much like the Ancient plague found in Antartica poisoned all of sg1) ---"Life and death, light and darkness, hope and despair. The rift was created, and on that day, the Ori were born. But the hatred of those who strayed from the true path festered and bloomed in the dark corners of the Avernakis to which they have been cast! And consumed by this hatred, they poisoned all they touched, bringing death, darkness and despair. And the souls of their victims knew no peace, until the Ori came and whispered to them: 'Sleep, for the end draws near!' And on that day all will rejoice, when the Ori come and lay them low." Baaleos 13:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

picture
just a slight remark about the picture used on the page. correct me if i was wrong, but isnt that just the image we saw in vala's dream? thats not how the ori 'really' look, thats just how she imagined them... the ori are the ascended beings we saw going into the doci in origin, season 9's third episode, aren't they? maybe we should put the original picture back on the page;..--Maartentje 22:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Technically they don't look like anything, they can chose how they appear to us, so any image of them is just a representation, plus it looks cool :D
 * --Sencerd 23:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Maartentje, we should use the original image instead of the satanic figure. Their true appearance is that ball of fire like we saw in "Origin".

Faris b 23:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

if anyone else agrees with us, maybe the picture of the fireball from Origin should be put back on the page... maybe the flaming skull should be described as 'the ori imagined by vala' or something, because it was clearly a dream. btw, this is how they used it on the french version of this article Maartentje 00:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Er, Faris b, as I said, they have no 'true appearance', they are pure energy and can appear in any way they want to, what you see is ::what they want you to see, so you cant call anything their 'true appearance' and therefore any representation is as valid as any other. --Sencerd 10:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

But the flaming skull isn't even a real Ori manifesting itself, it's just a dream, it's how Vala imagined them... They can appear in any way they want to, that's correct, but we should however use a picture of an Ori actually appearing... Maartentje 18:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * How do we know the scene involving the Ori-skull was purely a result of Vala's imagination? It could easily have been a repressed memory that she was recalling. If she woke in the middle of the night and saw a giant flaming skull leering down at her, she might well pass it off as being a nightmare ... until the memory of that event surfaces again and she considers that perhaps she didnt imagine it after all. Granted thats pure supposition, but the point is WHY would she imagine something like this in the first place? Vala has never seen an Ori and I dont see why her mind would conjure up such an image unless she had encountered an Ori in person. I also doubt that the producers would throw in a completely inaccurate depiction of an Ori in an episode (Unless it was a comedy epp, which this clearly wasnt) as it would only confuse matters for the viewers.


 * I agree with the above comment, I believe Vala witnessed the Ori coming to her, and impregnating her, she might have had the memory removed or supressed, but the trauma of being in that circle thing for 3 days might have bought it back. Lets face it, the Ori want to inspire terror to provoke worship, people wont worship flying tendrils of flame as much as they would a flaming skull figure. Theres no reason to believe the skull isnt real, and there has been no statements to say either way that the scene was completely dream or memory. If the Ori were gonna convert Vala, and theres no reason why they wouldnt have wanted to, a flaming skull would have provoked more fear, they probably didnt account for her previous experience as a Gou'ald (rite spelling?). She knows about fake Gods, shes been one. So shes kinda immune from theyre fear mongering into worship. Baaleos 13:10, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion: The Origins
Very often SF writers take the names for fiction from existing names on Earth, very often geography. Could we include that to connect this to the real world (like it necessarily is with the Earth origins of the Goa'uld)? How about pointing out to these Ori ("spiritual destiny") or those Ori ("My light"), preferably when scifi or an interview can confirm that the show`s name was taken from that? --Flammingo 16:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If it's exactly the same name, it doesn't really need to be confirmed. A paragraph explaining any similarities to other things called Ori would be a very worthwhile addition. --Tango 18:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Nah, as they say Origin, it's more likely that it's Latin: . Ori then means the plural of orus, where "or" is the same as words that end in -or.  -or is usede as a comparativ (more), but oris (mouth's, spring's) is as a beart or yieldt; nonetheless, Ori means Erras—very neah to Earl.  Compare prior. -lysdexia 03:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

How about ORI's three lettered numerology!!!
 * (O)15 + (R)18 + (I)9 = 42.
 * 42 the answer to the Ultimate Question according to Douglas Adams' science fiction spoof Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. In the science fiction series Star Trek, Borg has a sum of 42 (2+15+18+7).


 * hahaha, very funny, but somehow i doubt it. Xachna 03:18, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Verses versus Quotations
I wanted to ask, why does the article need the same phrases twice? I think the phrases are pretty good covered in the verses section (with some explanation too). And the dialogue doesn't say much about the ori themselves and has rather a comical value.

References to Christianity
Is it me, or are the Ori very similar to early Catholic crusaders, & that they seem almost like the inquisition? With all that blind faith & preaching that only they are right. Also, book of origin & creationism. & the fall of the Goa'uld & raise of the Ori kinda resemble the fall of the Roman empire & raise of Christanty.

Xachna 01:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing. I think that the writers are making an allegory for religuous violence.  Tobyk777 03:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It's hardly an allegory - it *is* religious violence. I think the "religious crusade" theme can be found in more religions that just Christianity. --Tango 11:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Or extreme Islamic Jihad that wish to spread the religion by the tip of the sword to non-believers (kill the infidels). Like Tango said, it could be applied to several crusades.Morphh (talk) 12:13, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

However, I find their constant quoting from the book of origin in Ancient (which in the series is based on latin, but people who understand some latin will note that the quoted sentences actually are in latin) quite similar to Roman Catholicims, not Islam... Maartentje 21:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say coincidence. No part of the Bible was written in Latin anyway, it was just translated. The original is primary Hebrew and Greek, I think. --Tango 22:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Latin was however the language of the catholic church, and until the sixties if i remember correctly, it was even used in every mass. latin remains the official language of vatican city btw. Maartentje 12:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Their whole motive is very similer to early christians. Evicorator666 03:54, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Maartentje, their actions do not resemble anything to extremist jihad, it is entirely based on early Christianity, all the contradictions seem to be more out of reaction then knowledgeable reasoning. please, in the future, do not just object but give real reasons. Roxanne Edits 04:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The critique extends to all forms of Christianity that convert, not just Catholicism. They seem to be delivering a strong message against the many evangelistic orginisations that continue to convert people in Africa and Asia - i.e. the Ori attempted to bribe people into believing with economic benefits, etc, just as both Catholic, Protestant and other denominations continue to build schools that teach Buddhists and Hindus that their religions are 'demonic', etc, and only allow attendance if they agree to convert. Origin is a clear satire of both modern and ancient forms of orginised religion, and this should probably be mentioned in the article.


 * Hard not to just start make things up on our own, but I suggest the following:
 * Vala was given a child by an invisible superior being, similar to the Virgin_Birth/Similarities throughout cultures
 * The unbelievers must be converted to "see the light" (inquisition (12th-15th century))
 * ...or be destroyed (jihad (7-8th, and 20th century); the crusades never had that agenda, but the witchhunters (17th century) did!)
 * Fire is evil, Hell, etc (say both the Ancients and medieval Christianity; that also used to be the resort of the Satan-Goa'uld, btw, now a bit in the past)
 * All arguments must be based on the Holy Book only (Christianity and Islam) as a fundament (ergo fundamentalist)
 * The times also show that the TV show likes to mix some things together. --FlammingoHey 13:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * That's all original research and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. --Tango 15:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Ori are not based on any actual Earth religion - the gods and theology described on the show do not conform to anything that exists or, as far as I know, has ever existed on Earth.
 * Rather the Ori were, as a few people have noted, the series' allegory for religious fundamentalism in general; the unwillingness to tolerate the existence of other faiths, the need to evangelize and uniformize the religions of the entire world (or galaxy), the belief that their faith is more important than their actions and that in the service of their gods, they can do no wrong.
 * You could read them on several different levels. Rather obviously they compare with the islamist movements now sweeping the Middle-East and the rest of the world, which the U.S. military is also fighting.  But they can also stand in for less vicious but very real forms of fundamentalism, such as have taken hold in Christianity and Judaism in Western countries.  The Middle-Ages/Catholic Church setting is partly there because it's a familiar religion that we can all understand, but it's also a warning about some of our demons in the present day. 213.181.226.21 (talk) 13:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Names - Galaxies and groups
To start with (rather: keep talking about it), there is this from the Fourth Horseman: The Ori name for the Milky Way galaxy appears to be Avernakis as it was stated by the prior Demaris. --FlammingoParliament 00:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've just removed that statement from the Fourth Horseman article, it looks like a misinterpretation of the quote to me. The Prior says: "But the hatred of those who strayed from the true path festered and bloomed in the dark corners of the Avernikas to which they had been cast!" Which isn't necessarily referring to a galaxy. --Tango 12:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * There are two spellings: Avernikas (apparently a norwegian church, says google) and avernakis (no non-Stargate word?) So, just an obscured Latin word for some allegory? -FlammingoParliament 14:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The made up Stargate word could have shared etymology with the Norwegian word, but it doesn't really matter. It's just a random quote from the Book of Origin, it I doubt it means much of importance. --Tango 18:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The way the word is used makes it seem more like a name for the universe, like "cosmos" or some sort of thing. --Sauron18 20:45, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, I just read somewhere that Joe Mallozzi (one of TPTB) said that Avernkias does more or less mean "universe". I read it in the Stargate Solutions wiki, which I trust, but I'll try to find the source anyways. Either way it's not that important to this article, since it's just ancient language. --Sauron18 20:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I just did a search for Avernakis on dictionary.com whilst it found no exact matches, it did find "Avernus" Is it not possible that Avernus and Avernakis are meant to have similar origins? Some words in the Stargate universe have been proven to have links to Latin or celtic language. Take note, that the lake this definition makes mention of is in Ancient Italy, which has a capital of Rome, which has the language of Latin, which is very similar to Ancient language in Stargate. I think when Demaris is talking about cast to the dark corners of the Avernakis, hes speaking about how the ORI posing as rightous gods, cast the Evil ones into Hell, which is a metaphor for just making them flee to the other side of the universe.Baaleos 12:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. a lake near Naples, Italy, looked upon in ancient times as an entrance to hell, from whose waters vile-smelling vapors arose, supposedly killing birds flying over it.
 * 2. hell.

size of the Ori group
''It is not known how large both groups are, although the deadlock in strength between the Ancients and the Ori would suggest the two groups are roughly the same size. [1]''
 * I disagree: The episode Origin doesnt confirm that. And on the other hand, the Alterans are reluctant to use their power to interfere although others have abused their Ascension powers. The only reason Oma Desala attacked Anubis was because she had taken a responsibility when she helped him ascend, but the Ori ascended on their own acount. There might be just two Ori (for the plural), they would already have the power to do all that. And the others cannot fight them due to their non-interference policy.--FlammingoParliament 10:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

the episode origin states nothing about the number of ori... you just see a great wall of fire where apparently thousands of ori reside. according to Morgan le Fay in The Pegasus Project, there "aren't enough" who disagree with the majority regarding the ancient's policies versus the ori to change it. this would indicate numbers certainly DO play a role on the ascended plane.

also, although the ancients don't oppose the ori on the mortal planes of existence, they certainly do oppose them on the ascended plane, as they shielded the humans in the milky way from the ori and prevent them from taking direct action in the milky way.... Maartentje 11:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, there is the fact that the Ori and the Ancients are at the same level of power with the Ori getting some more power from the human worshippers. This could be the reason for the deadlock. -- SFH 02:29, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It's true, we don't really know their numbers, and we can't really assume them. We know, however, that at this point they have nearly the same amount of power, but that has nothing to do with their numbers, but rather with their followers. --Sauron18 20:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This is an easy question to answer. Orlin answers it for us in "Fourth Horseman." The Ori do not ascend their followers, therefore, I think its safe to assume that there is more Alteran Group Ascended beings. However, I do think there is a deadlock between them because the Ori have an entire Galaxy of power producing Humans feeding them. Less Ori, but gets more power from Humans,  More Alterans, because they ascend people good and worthy, but they dont feed of the energy of lowers.  Its basically like this   Less ori = -1  feeds of energy = +1, More Alterans = +1  but no feeding of energy = -1   the equation works out like this in estimate ( -1-1+1+1= 0)  They are currently canceling eachother out. If the Ori manage to get another galaxy of support/power from lowers, then its likely they will have 2x +1's and will be a step ahead of the Alterans. Baaleos 12:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Stated quite late, but ok. The above comment can be considered correct. the "Step ahead" is also the exact reason why the Ori wanted to conquer the Milky Way, it was even said so. (not sure which character though). 195.109.63.17 (talk) 07:44, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Bias
This article is heavily biased towards the views of SGC in terms of what is a god (what else is a god but a powerful being, vs how they use that power). I know its only fiction, but it would be good to see both views, like all Wikipedia articles. 211.30.64.67 07:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * This article was written using all information within the Stargate SG-1 show. It is obvious that the show is biased against the Ori and so that is how the article must be written. --K1000 17:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just out of curiosity, Is god not described as the creator of man? If so, then it has been shown in the show that the Alterans created all life in the milky way galaxy with the Dar'Kara superweapon. Why not worship them as gods, if by all definitions, they are "the Creator"

Same for the Ori, they created all Human life in their galaxy presumably.Baaleos 12:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Their are many definitions for 'god', and being a creator is normally not one of them. Most people attribute humanity's creation to a god or gods, but it doesn't follow that just creating a species makes one a god. A sloppy example would be, if we perfected human cloning and certain area's of genetics, in 100 years it may be possible for us to create a new species, but I wouldn't say that when it happens we'll be gods. Also, if we were talking about one all powerful God, then a requisite for that being to be God would mean it would have to be eternal and all powerful.

Also, the Ori and the Ancients technically are not 'all powerful' because one can stop the other from doing a specific action. That is why there cannot be more than one all powerful being in existence, because they would limit each other's power, rendering them not all powerful. Guldenat 14:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I find the phrase "fictional characters" in the first paragraph of the article very biased. If there's any proof that the Ori didn't actually exist before they were destroyed I'd like to see it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.197.94.3 (talk) 15:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Ori are ascended?
Excuse me for being ignorant as I have not seen every episode, but I was under the impression that the Ori had not actually accomplished ascension. I believe that Orlin said this in "The Fourth Horseman (Part 2)". I am pretty sure that he said to the captured prior that no Ori had successfully ascended. Maybe he just said that no follower of the Ori had ascended. Could someone clear this up for me? --K1000 17:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * He said, the Ori never ascended anyone. They were talking about whether the promises of the Ori would ever be fulfilled, and Orlin says, no, they would have to share (the power delivered by the belief of their followers).-FlammingoHey 17:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * All of that is regarding the ascension of their followers. The Ori themeselves are certainly ascended. --Sauron18 20:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ori Powers
To be honest, the ORI havent used any powers in their own galaxy, to our knowledge, that wasnt just a power that a semi Ascended Anubis was allowed to use. Anubis was allowed to take over hosts, his symbiote when he was unascended would have done the same thing, So far, all we have seen of the Ori's power was posession, maybe Vala's impregnating could stand out. But all in all, I think the Alteran group is outnumbering the Ori, and the Ori, even in another galaxy, are submissive to the Alterans until the day when they get enough power to fight them. Thats why the Ori arnt totally abusing their powers in their own galaxy. Ascention gives the person knowledge of the universe, why would their powers be limited to a single galaxy, why would the alterans prevent them from using their ascended powers in the Milky Way and not their home galaxy?

Alot of this is just questions, but so far, it doesnt seem like the Ori are that powerful. Omah Desala was allowed to call bolts of lightning down to kill Jaffa, ending their lives, and I doubt she ascended any of them. Interferance, wouldnt the Ori be allowed to do this in their own galaxy, if so, why have we not seen it? Maybe the Alterans are preventing them? Think I confused myself in this article.... Lol Baaleos 15:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we haven't seen much interference in the Alteran-Ori home galaxy because only a few episodes have actually taken place in that galaxy. -- SFH 15:55, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * One could argue that they did use their powers, through the form of sending priors. The real problem as I've understood it, was that the Ori couldn't enter the lesser plain of existence (or were prevented maybe) and thus they use the Priors that essentially wield Ori powers. I believe this subject was explained at some point that the modification of the humans who become priors is required in order for them to use the 'magical' powers to force non-believers to submit to the will of Origin. 195.109.63.17 (talk) 07:52, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

SERIOUS WORK NEEDED to Alteran, Ancient and Ori articles (many misconceptions around
So for the longest time the SG1 has never really explained the connection between those who would later become the Ori and the Ancients. According to "The Ori: A New Enemy" documentary (Disc 1 Season 10 Special Features) the Ancients and the Ori are the same race; the Altera (note: Altera is how the race is mentioned in Merlin's book Daniel found). That's right folks. They are BOTH Alterans. However, the show never made this clear. Rather it simply stated that they "lived together" and other such nonsense. As such both articles (and the talk pages) seem to be based largely on fan speculation. Both articles refer to them as the Alterans and the Ori rather than "those who would become the Ancients and the Ori". Thoughts? TheDevilYouKnow 19:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's because Altera means "Others" in Latin. For the longest time, people just assumed that the Ancients, who are also called the others, were just what they called themselves. I know it's fanon, but hey, some people just see a theory and go with it. -- SFH 23:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a difference, once they say "the other [ascended] beings" before the Ori appeared in the series and opposed only to the speaker (which had been said only by Oma Desala and Daniel), after that, the term "others", latinized as altera, was used for the "other group of ascended beings", opposed to the Ori, meaning "ascended humans other than the Ori". Before, all were human in the (now) Ori galaxy; that's all explained by Orlin in the Fourth Horseman! --FlammingoHey 10:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought that by the end of season 10 the show made it pretty clear that both the Ancients and the Ori are of the same race the Alterans. The distinction is the philosophy both factions hold after ascension. Guldenat 14:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The references in this article are messed up, also im not sure of all the statements in the "society" section. Is it clearly stated (and still - is it definitely true?) that the Ori Galaxy humans are created by the ori? --Echosmoke 18:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The Ori outright said that they created the humans who worshipped them when they spoke to Daniel in Origin. Whether they were telling the truth, however... -- SFH 21:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Technology section
What's going on with this section? It's just all over the place and makes what appears to be personal inferences. For example, the first sentence correctly states that Ori technology is similar to that of Ancient technology but then goes on to say that this makes it more advanced than any other race in the universe, it also places emphasis on Nox technology for some reason. First of all, we know almost nothing about Nox technology so we can't compare anyone to them at this point. Second, it has been proven that the Ancients are not the ultimate technologically advanced race and they do not, by any measurement, outrank every other race in every field of technology. There have been numerous debates but it is very evident that the Ancients share the highest level of technological advancement with the Asgard. Again, we haven't seen too much Nox technology so we really can't say what's going on with them but the Asgard definitely give the Ancients a run for their money in terms of technology. The wording of this paragraph is also too staggered and relatively confusing. Rajrajmarley (talk) 04:25, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thor's comment about the Ancient database (while it was in O'Neill's brain, beginning of Season 8, I think) would suggest that Ancient technology was more advanced than Asgard. --Tango (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it was in part 2 of New Order at the beginning of Season 8. Thor did say that they learned a lot from the Ancient database but there is actual evidence in the series that the Asgard have surpassed the Ancients in many fields. See this discussion for further detail. Rajrajmarley (talk) 01:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What we may have to remember here is that the Asgard lived in 'real time' relative to when SG-1 made frequent trips through the stargate. The Alterans lived as 'humans' long before this time. Asgards may have surpassed Alteran technology, but for a very long period of time, the Ancients were unparallelled. Note that at this point Ancient also includes Ori. It was explained actually in SG-Atlantis, Alterans were the highest technologically advanced (maybe not by much) from any KNOWN race in the SG universe. The Ori hoped to overpower them though their powers, not technology and the Wraith beat them because of numbers. 195.109.63.17 (talk) 08:02, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Alien Races
I am a little new to Wikipedia but I have a Stargate/Ori-related question: Will the Ori try to convert non-human races, like Serrakin or Unas? (I saw an episode where they invade a Jaffa world and try to convert them but thet does'nt help since they are a human subspecies) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.5.134.43 (talk)
 * Purely speculative, but I would think... if they can acquire more power through these races, they would. How they'd do it I'm not sure but they could.195.109.63.17 (talk) 08:04, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Overhaul of this page
In case someone is wondering why this page is a little messy and why much of the former information is being removed from the article: I have started to write an encyclodic article about this interesting topic with the intention to make this a Good Article one day. As such, this article is not allowed to contain original research including analysis and speculation on the viewers part. Excessive plot is also a big no-no. Generally, the Manual of Style for fiction needs to meet (as should all other fiction articles on wikipedia). But rewriting this article will take time (think weeks), so please bear with me. If you are looking for an in-universe outlet, please visit wikia:Stargate:Ori, a fan wiki that can always need help. If you want to save something from the old version of this article here and transwiki it to wikia, please use this link (before I touched this article). Thank you. – sgeureka t•c 20:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the Ancients/Ori
Did they reveal the home galaxy of the Ancients / Ori, in one of the SGU featurettes?

http://stargate.mgm.com/view/content/1666/index.html

The galaxy shown behind Jackson on the monitor when he speaks about the original home galaxy is image:M33.jpg the Triangulum Galaxy.

76.66.193.224 (talk) 11:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)