Talk:Oriana Fallaci

Untitled
Almost all Italian biographys says she was born on '29 giugno 1929' June 29th 1929 which one is correct?

Age issue
Oriana Fallaci (29 June 1929[1] - 15 September 2006) Fallaci began her journalistic career in her teens, becoming a special correspondent for the Italian paper Il mattino dell'Italia centrale in 1950.

If she started working for the Italian paper Il mattino dell'Italia centrale in 1950 and she was born on the 29th of june 1929 she could not have been in her teens anymore because she would have turned 20 on the 29th of june 1949. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.86.127.74 (talk) 12:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm fixing it - she began working at Il Mattino dell'Italia Centrale in 1946, according to "Oriana Fallaci - The Woman and the Myth." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emailnuevo (talk • contribs) 15:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Wrong thing
There actually was a civil commemoration in Florence, on Sunday, 15 June 2006.

Coffin
The Italian newspaper Il Corriere della Sera titled 'A white coffin and a bell' no photos were allowed but they described oriana lying in a white coffin (nothing strange with that I think) with a tailleur (the color was not specified) and a military watch, the same dressing she used during her famous interviews.

Swiss criminal code
Art. 261 bis * (Codice Penale) Chiunque incita pubblicamente all'odio o alla discriminazione contro una persona o un gruppo di persone per la loro razza, etnia o religione; chiunque propaga pubblicamente un'ideologia intesa a discreditare o calunniare sistematicamente i membri di una razza, etnia o religione; chiunque, nel medesimo intento, organizza o incoraggia azioni di propaganda o vi partecipa chiunque, mediante parole, scritti, immagini, gesti, vie di fatto o in modo comunque lesivo della dignità umana, discredita o discrimina una persona o un gruppo di persone per la loro razza, etnia o religione o che, per le medesime ragioni, disconosce, minimizza grossolanamente o cerca di giustificare il genocidio o altri crimini contro l'umanità; chiunque rifiuta ad una persona o a un gruppo di persone, per la loro razza, etnia o religione, un servizio da lui offerto e destinato al pubblico, è punito, con la detenzione o con la multa.

--- The swiss animalist Erwin Kassler was sentenced to 2 month jail for critisizing hallal with this article.

Surely halal and kosher butchery are equally abhorrent and cruel. They are understandable in hot countries where meat would have become rotten very quickly, especially if it was very bloody. However today with refrigeration such killing methods are no longer necessary and simply followed out of habit/tradition.

Original report from the italian state television: http://www.rainews24.it/Notizia.asp?NewsID=23401

http://www.israpundit.com/archives/2005/07/oriani_falachi.php http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01072002/0107200263.htm

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18394.htm

Anarchism & Abortion
Fallaci had previously attracted controversy for expressing in her book Letter to a Child Never Born anti-abortion views despite her sympathies with anarchism.

Someone can maybe explain why anarchist must be pro-abortion and non-anarchists anti-abortion? What have the two things in common? it is pure non-sense 81.208.60.196 19:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

She's fairly vague in "Letter to a Child Never Born" regarding her views on abortion, she doesn't come out and take a stance. All she says is that after three months the baby should be considered a human being, and she presents arguements both for and against abortion. -AlexiusComnenus

Muslim response to her books
I tried to change this several times now, but it sounds really strange (at least to us european) that the Italian muslims sue someone in France, and in fact it wasn't the italian muslim but the french MRAP .....

81.208.60.196 19:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

In 2002 in Switzerland the Islamic Center and the Somal Association of Geneva, SOS Racisme of Lausanne and a private citizen sued her for the supposedly racist content of The Rage and The Pride. In November 2002 a Swiss judge issued an arrest warrant and an extraditon request was sent to the Italian government. The extradition request was rejected because the book was considered within the limits of freedom of speech.

In 2003 the MRAP (Movement against racism and for the friendship among peoples) sued to have The Rage and The Pride banned in France. A French court rejected the request, as well as the group's request for a disclaimer to be placed in each book.

Nevertheless some of the things about Islam are being also offensive to the woman rights.

Does this phrase belong? It seems quite biased to me. Sadaukar 05:21, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Author completely left out the fact that Fallaci was in the anti-Fascist resistance movement in world war two. A simple search of Google would reveal this.

That's true one has to be honest and says even the good things that Oriana Fallaci did, before becoming an artereosclerotic racist!--Juliet.p 19:45, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Calling names is not a convincing argument, and not particularly becoming. - Nunh-huh 19:48, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Especially when it looks like she was right all along. Look how Muslims have treated their hosts in France. Let's hope the same doesn't happen in Italy.

It would be nice if someone could add some information about the future trial. Like for example, what exactly are the laws that supposedly Fallaci has violated, what are the 18 sentences that the judge, according to some articles, "homed in on"?

Thanks in advance, --kissekatt 16:36, 2005 May 28 (UTC)

Where do these quotes come from? Specifically, the one "The clash between us and them is not a military one. It's a cultural one, a religious one, and the worst is still to come." ?????????

--Fjorn 18:37, 2005 June 16 (UTC)

Adel Smith
User 24.17.221.188 makes the reasonable point that this is not an article about Adel Smith and removed the following paragraph from the page. I'm putting it here in order to preserve it in case somebody would like to create an article about him. I myself don't know enough about him to do so. -EDM 22:06, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
 * In an ironic twist, on June 14, 2005 Adel Smith himself was sentenced by an Italian court in Padua to six months in prison (commuted to a fine of €6.000), for the crime of defaming religion. On January 4, 2003, during a live broadcast on Italian TV, Smith had characterized Christianity as a "criminal association" and described Pope John Paul II as "a foreigner who leads the church ... a con man". Smith also referred to a crucifix as a "miniature cadaver".

The footnote was:
 * : "Italian Judge Bans Crucifix From School," Associated Press, October 27, 2003.


 * Actually the paragraph is very relevant to this article. Restored. (Preceding comment by User:65.139.81.35)


 * I disagree, the extended details pertaining to Adel Smith are in no way related to the entry of Oriana Fallaci. The text associated with dates June 14, 2005, January 4, 2003 and January 13, 2006 do not in any way refer to Oriana Fallaci. I would encourage someone to make an entry about Adel Smith and link to that. --128.2.225.185 03:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with User 128.2.225.185, these details must not be here but in Adel Smith article. Another thing to notice is that Smith's association is an insignificant one. He is known just because he was invited in tv talk-shows and political debates ( they invited him due to his radical views, just to make their shows a bit "hot" ), but his association has really few followers even if he claims it has thousand members. The biggest muslim association in Italy is UCOII, that has nothing to do with Smith's radical thoughts. One day he wanted to sell his books outside the Roma mosque and muslims who were there told him to go away in a rude way, so he's not popular at all among muslims in Italy. Frankly, I don't see any reason to give all this importance to this man. Regards (Virgilio 02:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC))

This article is about Oriana Fallaci NOT Adel Smith. The blurb about Adel Smith is completely irrelevant to the subject. --70.20.89.19 18:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see someone familiar with Italian politics do an Adel Smith article, at least a small one. One thing I'm curious about - how is it that someone with the Anglo surname Smith ended up heading a group a group of Italian Muslims? I doubt there are many Italian Smiths or Muslim Smiths in the world. Judging from what I've read, he has stirred up enough controversy in Italy to merit his own entry. - Bert 171.159.64.10 21:06, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

"Critics point out that Fallaci's books are often egocentric, based on stereotypes, xenophobic and racist in much of their content, other than lacking any references or sources."

Huh? "Other than"? Not a content complaint, just looks like broken English. greg goebel

Controversy
I tried to even out this article a bit, as it surely wasn't NPOV. It seems to me that pro-Muslim editors try to have too much influence on what is said about Mrs. Fallaci here. 83.135.82.165

I have now included sources to my previously criticised changes. Hope everybody is happy now 83.135.82.165


 * I think it reads a hell of alot better now and should be kept.--Looper5920 14:20, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Arab comments
Oriana Fallaci refers to all Muslims as "Arabs" and as followers of "Arab culture". There are certain editors here, such as CltFn and Karl Meier, who hold the Western POV that criticizing a race of people is bad, and so they continue to remove any reference to her anti-Arab comments from this page because they somehow think it reflects badly on her. Yuber(talk) 17:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yuber you seem to be the only person that thinks that the word Arab is a bad word. Arab is not not a bad word and arab people are not bad people . You should stop your bigotted attacks against the arab people and Oriana Fallaci is not anti-arab. She is anti-totalitarianism, anti barbarism , anti suppresion of human rights. Had you studied her long journalistic career , most of it which took place before you were even born you would have known that.--CltFn 17:12, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
 * You do not speak for Oriana Fallaci, and it is her opinion that all Muslims are Arabs and followers of Arab culture, and so she calls all Muslims Arabs in her books. Yuber(talk) 07:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Stop the pretense Yuber, you have never read any of her books, you probably have never even touched one. So now how about givings us some real quotes with page numbers that support your assertions.--CltFn 22:16, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The point is not that "Arab" is a "bad word", but that it describes people af Arabian descent. Muslims aren't "Arabs", even in major islamic countries like Turkey, whose inhabitants have no genetic relation to "Arabs", but are followers of Muslim religion nonetheless. Yuber has a point. 82.139.47.117 12:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Yuber does not have a point. In The Rage and the Pride, Fallaci calls Muslims "Muslims," not "Arabs."  She calls Somali Muslims "Somali Muslims," not "Somali Arabs."  Yuber is dead wrong.  Iceberg007 19:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)Iceberg007

Mr. Adam Smith wrote a booklet in Italy insulting and defaming Mrs Fallaci and her father and vowing to punish the Woman who offended the islam. He says, among other nice things, that the westerners should stop drinking alchool (as the Quram says) or die like Oriana is doing. The booklet ends with a real fatwa against her. This fact was taken seriously by the police, and security measures was taken in NY.

Quotes
Yuber, if you were able to properly point to the places in Fallaci's work where those quotes supposedly come from, or, as I said on your talk, point to websites that mention the correct places, I am pretty sure that everyone would be happy if those quotes stay in. The websites you mention only claim that she said that, but none of them say where exactly in her works that was taken from. As it is, the information simply is not verifiable, which is contradictory to WP:V. Cyberevil 02:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

In a recent interview taken to fallaci for an argentinian Newspaper, she made very interesting comments about Youth and Liberty. She said young people are hardly abel to express freely in any context or culture. They think they are free thinking but they are permanently tided to political and ideological fashion and the influence of the media. Young adults are also influenced by their obligations, contexts and responsabilities. In her own maturehood she sees the true possibility for free thinking since only mature people can be truely self thinking. Its very interesting how she defends adulthood as the "best and freer moment of her life" and how she enjoys her age despite of "the other one". Is cocnforting the always-smart trough wich she ridicules, some ridiculous massive movements. Comments? I am 27 yo. leandro. Argentina.

Things that must be said
First of all it is Ferruccio De Bortoli and not Ferruccio de Bortolo as it was previoulsy written, then I added infos to make clear to the reader that Oriana Fallaci is appreciated mainly by the italian right-wingers and also extreme right-wingers. Leftists ( not only leftist hardliners but also moderate ones )in general don't like Oriana at all and a lot of persons consider her a racist. So as you can see, public opinion in Italy is divided about her. While rightists like her, lefists don't. Some people also say, with a a bit of bad taste, that she became totally crazy due to her illness. Personally I'm italian but I really don't like her and IMHO she wrote a lot of bullshits and racist anti-muslim things. Regards (Virgilio 03:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC))
 * ..."and racist anti-Muslim things..." -- I had no idea Islamism came with pigmentation.--Mike18xx 11:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe that Mike18xx is an advocate of genocide against Muslims. See here. --GCarty 15:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * GCarty, you're joking, right? The link you provide proves the opposite. TheKaplan 23:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I m also italian and I DO LIKE Oriana. Do you know why she wrote what she wrote ? Because she travelled to arabic countries. I've been 10 years in Algeria and I know that What she says IS TRUE . Tu continua cosi', sogni d'oro a Dysneyland

Opinion on human travel to Mars
deleted edit:


 * Original Italian: "Il treno, l'automobile, l'aereo, le astronavi con cui siamo andati sulla Luna..."

WP doesn't rely on unauthorised translations, particularly when they are contended. Translator Chris Knipp omitted the noun's articles and thus -unwittingly, I guess- furthered the presumption that the pronoun doesn't refer to the preceding noun, but to the whole preceding enumeration. Only when assuming beforehand that Fallaci is demented, grammar and semantics allow for that interpretation. This would be WP:OR or POV. --tickle me 22:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

She's dead
Italian Television and Italian Wikipedia says she died today in Florence because of her illness.

Request for Photo
Does anybody have a 'non-copy righted' photo from when she was young and beautifull? The reader of this article must know her look, when she was reporting from vietnam.--Pejman47 09:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There's one, but although for the Italian law it's public domain (20 years after the photo is shot, if it isn't qualified as art), the EU law has recently changed and commons has refused to host those images. I don't know about US law. --Εξαίρετος ([[Image:Noia_64_apps_email.png|20px]]msg) 16:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not an image where she is pretty, it's a missed pic, I say more beautiful pictures of her. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:109C:5177:B2EC:9A6 (talk) 14:02, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Request for bibliography section
Could someone more knowledgeable than I am please separate the list of her books into fiction and non-fiction categories? --Spiff666 12:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Reorganise External Links?
The "External links" section is fairly long and could be better organised. Here's a possible scheme: Websites
 * Oriana Fallaci journalist, interviewer and author
 * European Homepage for Oriana Fallaci

Obituaries
 * Italian Writer Oriana Fallaci Dies at 77 Obituary published by the Associated Press.
 * A tribute by Michael Leeden

Articles by Fallaci
 * Rage & Pride by Oriana Fallaci, English translation by Letizia Grasso, from the four-page essay "La Rabbia e l'Orgoglio", that appeared in Italy's leading newspaper Corriere della Sera on September 29, 2001. (Note that the official edition by Rizzoli, is translated by Fallaci herself)
 * Rage and Pride, as translated by Chris Knipp
 * On Jew-Hatred in Europe, by Columnist Oriana Fallaci, IMRA - Thursday, April 25, 2002 (Originally published in Italian in the Panorama magazine, April 17, 2002).
 * The Enemy We Treat Like A Friend, Part I An article by Oriana Fallaci, published in Corriere della Sera, July 16, 2005
 * The Enemy We Treat Like A Friend, Part II An article by Oriana Fallaci, published in Corriere della Sera, July 16, 2005 (note that the central part of the article is missing between part I and II)

Articles about Fallaci I've put the links in each section into chronological order (or at least tried to). Note: I'm not certain about http://www.alter-of-democracy.be being described as "European Homepage for Oriana Fallaci".
 * Oriana Fallaci: Words, Power, And Style, Short bio by Jill M. Duquaine, University of Wisconsin - Green Bay May 6, 1996
 * Rage and Pride Ignites a Firestorm - On the reception of "Rage and Pride" By Michael San Filippo, guide to Italian Language at about.com.<!-2002-->
 * You Are Wrong, Ms Fallaci by Amir Taheri of Benador Associates, a New York-based think-tank.
 * Prophet of Decline: An interview with Oriana Fallaci by Tunku Varadarajan in the Wall Street Journal
 * Woman of the Year: Oriana Fallaci
 * Fallaci: Warrior in the Cause of Human Freedom
 * The Agitator: Oriana Fallaci directs her fury toward Islam by Margaret Talbot in The New Yorker, May 29, 2006

Anyhow, at this stage this is just a proposal for people to think about. Comments, criticisms, suggestions etc are all welcome. CWC (talk) 06:39, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * October 4th: I've gone ahead and reorganised the external links using these subheadings. Please don't hesitate to improve on my edit; I was not as thorough as I could have been.
 * I'm still a bit worried that we describe http://www.alter-of-democracy.be as the "European Homepage for Oriana Fallaci". Is that description correct?
 * Cheers, CWC (talk) 13:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Awards
I think a positive literary review/quote would be appropriate under this section. Riccardo Nencini's uncited remarks are not very expressive, and there should be something similar to the remarks at the end of the controversy section, but from the other viewpoint. I suggest Margaret Talbot's comments in her article in The New Yorker; "Fallaci’s virtues are the virtues that shine most brightly in stark circumstances: the ferocious courage, and the willingness to say anything, that can amount to a life force." (reference)
 * Is the article not hagiographic enough for you? By the way, if you'd actually read The New Yorker essay, Talbot describes her as aging ungracefully (in the intellectual sense) and becoming almost senile in her ways/views.

POV
Article focuses too much on supposed racism and not enough on journalistic career and anti-fascist theories, which is why she is note. Artile also has many instances in which wording was awkward. Therefore, NPOV and Clean Up tags were added.
 * "Missing content" is not the same as "biased". If you think something is missing, add it yourself. Fallaci is more known for her opinions about islam than anything else today. Your claim has neither to do with style, so both NPOV and cleanup are removed. Start a section on what you think is missing and mark it as stub if you cannot write yourself.


 * This page clearly has POV problems. Take this sentence for example: "In The Force of Reason and the Rage and the Pride she dared to state what many politicians and journalists censor, the threat to open societies posed by Islamofascism and the imposition of religious (shariah) law over civil law."24.5.199.225 (talk) 13:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

A Man
''A Man, a novel telling the biography of Alexandros Panagoulis, who fought against the Regime of the Colonels in Greece. It's a story about a hero who fights alone for freedom and for truth, never giving up, and so he dies, killed by all.''

Is the second sentence really necessary? Touching, really, but Wikipedia isn't a bookstore, and I don't think this dramatic description is needed in a listing of Ms. Fallaci's book listing? I'm removing it.--C.Logan 10:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism
Quoted from Playboy magazine interview, 1981:

''“I am angry at the Jews for many things… If you want to take the example of America, how they hold the power, the economical power in so many ways, and the press and the other kind of stuff… I never realized how it happened and they came to control the media to that point. Why?”''

Wrong cause of death
Actually she died of lung cancer (not breast cancer). She also wrote a lot about smoking, cigarettes and doctors.--Absinthe88 18:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Oriana.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:27, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Referencing a translator
I felt like the Kissinger statement needed a citation, so I used one and copied the format used by Arico in his Fallaci biography; do I need to put the translator's name in there (he did the official translation of Fallaci's book)? It's there now, but if it's too much delete it for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emailnuevo (talk • contribs) 16:09, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

"Controlversial comments"
Just a comment to the editors from an outside reader:

After going to the Controversy section, and reading the first paragraph, I still don't have the slightest idea about what those "controversial comments" might be. This makes this section effectively useless for anyone (like me) who is not familiar with the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.177.44.93 (talk) 12:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

8 years later, I have added something! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 00:22, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Controversy section
I have cleaned up misspellings and errors of grammar in the 4th paragraph of the Controversy section. I don't believe I changed the meaning, although I did replace "censureship" with "censorship" in the final sentence.

Also, please note that the last sentence -- "The first book of Del Valle in Italy, Il Totalitarismo islamista (the islamic totalitarianism; Solinum Editore), was published with a postface letter written by Fallaci [19] thanking Alexandre del Valle for his writings and deploring a common hatred and anti-Islamophobia censorship in France" -- doesn't make any sense. The "anti-Islamophobia" part is especially confusing. If someone who has knowledge of Ms Fallaci's career can edit this so that it is clearer, that would be great. Clockster (talk) 23:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * After review I ended up removing this entire segment: "On the behalf of Bat Yé'Or, Fallaci asked Alexandre del Valle to give her information on Islam to be mentioned in The Force of The Reason. Fallaci's last writings on Islam were clearly influenced by Bat Yé'Or's theory on EURABIA and by Del Valle's theory on "Islamic fascism". The first book of Del Valle in Italy, Il Totalitarismo islamista (the islamic totalitarianism; Solinum Editore), was published with a postface letter written by Fallaci thanking Alexandre del Valle for his writings and deploring a common hatred and anti-Islamophobia censorship in France."


 * My reason for removing it was because it made little sense. What information was given to Fallaci and why was it on Ye'Or's behalf?  Further, the titles of both Ye'Or's book and del Valle's book seemed to be incorrect.  When I tried to figure out which of del Valle's book had the "postface letter" in it, I could find nothing indicating that there was such a "postface" by Fallaci in any book, not even at the source referenced here.  Besides, the source/reference listed appears to be a personal blog.


 * I also removed the sentence "A previous prosecutor had sought dismissal of the charges" as, again, I could find no confirmation of this. I deleted "LA LICRA" from the list of organizations that had brought lawsuits against Fallaci, as I could find no verification of that.  I did include a new reference that verified the other 2 organizations, though, as well as a new reference about the number of phrases in her book which Smith cited in his lawsuit against her.


 * And, finally, I broke the 5th paragraph up into 2 paragraphs, just for clarity. I hope these changes stay until someone who knows more about Fallaci comes in and can edit properly, but if they get reversed, note that I at least tried to fix the issues in this section. Clockster (talk) 23:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

support in Italy?
In the Controversy section, it's written "Fallaci received support in Italy, where her books have sold over one million copies", that sounds quite misleading to me. It's true that she sold a lot of copies in Italy, but she was also heavily criticized (and it seems to me she was more criticized than appreciated for those articles). Also, the first reference (Guardian) is not an ideal source for the number of copies she sold.--Sandrobt (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I think it's shamefull
I think it's shamefull that the picture shown in the page represents a photo of oriana with the chador. it would seem that she has been Moslem thing that contrarily it was not... 78.13.203.124 (talk) 22:35, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree that picture is shameful and Oriana would have hated it to represent her in Wikipedia. It HAVE TO BE CHANGED! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.83.253.217 (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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Causes of death
Please add what she though to be her cancer causes. Here the article in Italian:

http://cinema.excite.it/morte-oriana-fallaci-parla-loncologo-che-lha-N93548.html She though it was because of toxic gaz. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:109C:5177:B2EC:9A6 (talk) 14:00, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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