Talk:Orient Express

Wikilinking Dates?
Every date in this article is wikilinked. Is this really necessary? --81.66.138.25 16:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Only full dates need to be linked, so users' date preferences will work, as in 8 August 2006. Go ahead and unlink the years, I agree they're annoying and of no real worth. --Guinnog 17:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Route map
This article would really be enhanced greatly by the inclusion of map or maps to show the route(s) of the service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.130.69.200 (talk • contribs) 06:53, October 4, 2006.


 * It seems to me that a good starting point for reference material would be the route map included in the advertising poster. Duplicate that route line on a more complete map of the region. Slambo (Speak)  13:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

World War One
This paragraph mentions that the treaty of Saint-Germain forced Austria to accept the train, which obviously did not run through Vienna. However, did it pass through Austria at all? It is not mentioned in the text. It should be the case, otherwise the clause in the treaty would be useless, however a train running through Milan, Venice and Triest does not pass the new Austrian territory after World War One. - 84.114.147.101 13:32, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

redundancy
"Direct Orient Express" and "Homonym" sections have redundant information. I would suggest leaving the end of the Direct Orient Express as the end of that section, and then note that a service called the Orient Express continues, in the next section, with all the info. Also, I wouldn't title the section "Homonym", but perhaps something like "The Orient Express Today".

Orient Express today
"One interesting feature of the current Orient Express train is its heterogeneous assembly of rolling material coming from France, Germany, Austria, and previously, Hungary and Romania, which allowed people to easily compare the choices of these countries and to choose the one that suited one most. Of course, the sleeping car and the wagon-restaurant previously belonging to the Compagnie Internationale de Wagons-Lits are sometimes there too."

As you can see in the German version of the article, the Orient Express consists of ÖBB cars only, although there are come CNL through carriages from Dortmund to Vienna, also the dining car comes from Dortmund and not from Strasbourg. The sleeping cars do not belong to the CIWL, the CIWL only provides services in those cars. Could somebody who understands German well correct the English version?

88.117.72.207 10:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I cannot read German, but I'll remove the unsourced sentence.--Dans (talk) 15:21, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Hong Kong
I saw from this website that the Orient Express had also made a trip to Hong Kong in 1988. I think we should include the trip in this article. 69.255.197.173 (talk) 23:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've removed that entry in the Records section as the above link is dead, and this link states that the VSOE was not the train on this route ("... Fuji Television and Hitachi sponsored a sensational tour Paris - Hong Kong. [...] Initially, the Japanese sponsors had asked James Sherwood, but his VSOE was busy on the Venice route.") and there's no mention of it being a record-breaking route (it may well have been, but not confirmed there). Am leaving this info here in case anyone else can elaborate or find more references... - 91.85.182.124 (talk) 22:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

In 1988 Nostalgie Istanbul Orient Express(NIOE) trip to Hong Kong and Japan. January 7 1989 NIOE left Japan.--Ngauger (talk) 14:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Train Eclair de Luxe (test train)
sorry only in French & Dutch, but most of the information from 'Wagons-Lits' and briefly mentioned in the Guiness Book.

"Si le coeur vous en disait, et si vous ne redoutiez pas un voyage à toute vapeur de 2 000 km, nous serions heureux de vous voir vous joindre à nous... Nous partons de Paris mardi 10 octobre nous serons à Vienne mercredi soir...". C'est en ces termes que Georges Nagelmackers, en 1882, convia ses invités à un trajet inaugural. http://www.wagons-lits.com/pullman_orient_express.html

..’preview’ in de vorm van een traject Parijs-Wenen-Parijs, dat zal worden afgelegd door de zogenaamde ‘Train Eclair de luxe’. ..vertrekken op dinsdag 10 oktober om 18:40 vanuit Parijs (Gare de Strasbourg).. ..De ‘bliksemtrein’ bestaat uit drie drieassige slaapwagens met elk 14 plaatsen en één rijtuig met 16 plaatsen dat de voorloper is van de rijtuigen op draaistellen die pas zo’n twintig jaar later in gebruik zullen komen. (samenstelling volgens plan blz 176: 1: fourgon, 2: slaapwagen 16 plaatsen, 3: slaapwagen 14 plaatsen, 4: restaurantrijtuig nr. 107, 5: slaapwagen 14 plaatsen, 6. slaapwagen 14 plaatsen, 7. fourgon = 101 ton) Boek: De Oriënt-Express - Reis naar Constantinopel - ISBN 90-5325-081-6 - Wettelijk Depot D/1997/5890/21, blz 136 & 176

Op 10 oktober 1882 om 18:31 vertrekt de trein in de Gare de Strasbourg met bestemming Wenen. .. ’s anderendaags 11 oktober om 23:20 stoomt de trein het station van Wenen binnen. ..De terugreis naar Parijs is gepland op vrijdag 13 oktober om 16:40. Ondanks alle bijgeloof zet de ‘Train Eclair’ een opmerkelijke prestatie neer, want op zaterdag 14 oktober komt hij zoals gepland aan in Parijs en om 20:00 rijdt hij binnen in de Gare de Strasbourg. ..1e menu aan boord (10/10/1882): oesters, soep met Italiaanse deegwaren, tarbot met groene saus, kip ‘à la chasseur’, rundsfilet met châteauaardappelen, chaud-froid van wild, salade, chocoladepudding en dessertbuffet. Boek: De Oriënt-Express - Reis naar Constantinopel - ISBN 90-5325-081-6 - Wettelijk Depot D/1997/5890/21, blz 138

1882 - Train Eclair, Parijs - Wenen, proefritten op 10 en 13 oktober. Boek: Het Groot Guinness Treinen Boek (bijgewerkt tot 1982) - ISBN 90-245-0751-0, blz 164

Wdew (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

First Express d'Orient from Paris to Vienne
Le 5 juin 1883, le train Express d'Orient est créé entre Paris et Vienne. Il est composé de deux fourgons dont l'un est réservé au service postal, d'une voiture-restaurant et d'au moins deux voitures-lits. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/roland.arzul/wl/orientexpress.htm

L'Orient Express Le 5 juin 1883, le train Express d'Orient est créé entre Paris et Vienne. Il est composé de deux fourgons dont l'un est réservé au service postal, d'une voiture-restaurant et d'au moins deux voitures-lits. A partir d'octobre de la mème année, le service est prolongé Paris, Strasbourg, Vienne, Budabest, Bucarest- Giurgiu. Après une traversée du Danube en bateau, train autrichien de Rustchuk à Varna, où les passagers embarquent à bord du navire "Espero" pour Constantinople. Le voyage dure 4 jours. En 1884, la liaison Paris-Budabest est quotidienne. En 1889, la liaison est assurée entièrement par rail jusqu'à Constantinople, en 67 heures et 35 minutes. http://perso.wanadoo.fr/roland.arzul/wl/orientexpress.htm 1883-5-6 inauguration du Train-Express-Orient que l'on appellera Orient-Express. http://www.quid.fr/2000/Q042850.htm

Inauguration, le 05/06/1883, de l' "Orient - Express", premier train de luxe international (en EU). http://christophe.lachenal.free.fr/francais/education/fr_education_historique.html

1883 - Oriënt Express, 5 juni: Parijs - Giurgewo; 4 oktober officiële openingsrit; 1884: doorgaand naar Nis; 1889: naar Constantinopel. Boek: Het Groot Guinness Treinen Boek (bijgewerkt tot 1982) - ISBN 90-245-0751-0, blz 164 Am 5. Juni 1883 startete mit dem Orient-Express der erste Luxuszug zwischen Paris und Wien und ab dem 9. Mai 1896 der Nord-Express von Paris nach St. Petersburg. Diese Schnellzüge führten nur die erste Wagenklasse, konnten nur gegen hohe Zuschläge benutzt werden und standen damit nur einem kleinen Kreis von Nutzern zur Verfügung. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Zug

Wdew (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

First direct Express d'Orient
1er juin 1889 : départ du premier Orient-Express circulant sans transbordement de Paris à Constantinople par l'itinéraire de Budapest-Belgrade-Sofia http://www.laviedurail.com/culturerail/histoire/panorama/pan_voies.php?SID=2004063002383644C11D98

le 1er juin 1889 " l'Orient-Express " circula sans transbordement de Paris à Constantinople, sa marche accusant une diminution de durée de trajet de 14 heures (durée totale : 67h35) http://www.laviedurail.com/culturerail/histoire/panorama/pan_orientexp.php?SID=2005082203383555BBCB17

1889-1-6 la voie Belgrade-Nish-Sofia-Constantinople ayant été achevée, le voyage se fait entièrement par fer de Paris à Constantinople : 3 186 km en 67 h 35. http://www.quid.fr/2000/Q042850.htm

The first through train between Vienna and Istanbul ran on August 12, 1888. Through running of the Orient Express between Paris and Istanbul started on June 1, 1889. http://www.gregoriou.itgo.com/photo2.html

De eerste reizigerstrein die Turkijë binnenreed (onjuist) was de beroemde 'Oriënt Express' die op 1 juni 1889 doorgaand van Parijs tot Constantinopel kon rijden. Boek: Het Groot Guinness Treinen Boek (bijgewerkt tot 1982) - ISBN 90-245-0751-0, blz 178-179

1889: The line is completed, and direct Paris-Constantinople operation starts in June 1889. The Orient Express leaves Paris (Gare de Strasbourg, now renamed Gare de l'Est) every night at 18:25. It has daily sleepers for Vienna, twice-weekly sleepers on Sundays & Wednesdays for Constantinople, and twice-weekly sleepers on Monday & Friday for Bucharest. Arrival in Constantinople was at 16:00, 3 nights (67.5 hours) from Paris. http://www.seat61.com/OrientExpress.htm

1889, Europe's Orient Express completes arrangements for travel between Paris and Constantinople without change of train. The first through train leaves the Gare de l'Est June 1 and arrives at Constantinople in 67 hours, 35 minutes - more than 13 hours faster than in 1883 but 7½ hours slower than the time that will be standard within 10 years. http://www.answers.com/topic/1889

Wdew (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Locomotives used?
Would it be a good idea to discuss, list or at least mention the locomotives that had the most extensive service records on this line? I mean by class of locomotive of course (as opposed to any one specific locomotive)... However, I don't actually have alot of infomation about what locomotives were used on this line, so someone else would have to input this idea if accepted... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vor'Cha (talk • contribs) 15:33, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

the very last Ride 2009
first of all, please forgive me my bad english - I try my best to express my question ;-(

I have a little problem with the date and route of the last ride.

Here in the Article it is mentioned, the 14th of Dec (this was a Monday). The Source NPR says: on 14th the Train disapear - so I guess the last ride was on Sunday 13th, Dec (who will take a last famous ride when he have a Sunday before? Or disapear the last ride while drive? I don't think so)

The other thing is the Route - the Source say: ''Steves points out that there are actually two Orient Expresses...and takes people from London to Venice. It's the other Orient Express that's taking its final trip.'' (oh man, I love things like this).

But nowhere in the Article it is mentioned wich Route the last ride was. Next quote: "The historic Orient Express — that's the one that was established back in the 1880s — that took you from Paris or London to Istanbul," he says.. erm... the last Ride cannot go from Paris or London. Do anybody knows now the two last Stations? The goal was Istanbul, I guess - but was the Start in Paris or London? Thanks in advice -- Hartmann Schedel  cheers  20:40, 13 September 2012 (UTC)


 * At first - read the article in the de-WP, most of your questions will be explained there. Notwithstanding the private-owned and operated historic trains like Venice Simplon Orient Express (and these are the trains mentioned in your source) the very last Orient Express driven by different european state railways ran between Strasbourg and Vienna, starting in both directions on the last day of the timetable 2009, 12th December, and arriving next morning in its final destination. See Orient_Express. No Orient Express ever started in London, but over decades the Orient Express had through coaches from Calais or Boulogne, providing service with channel ferries and boat trains between London and Dover. Passengers had to change twice, from the boat train to the ferry, from ferry to through coach. --Wahldresdner (talk) 17:47, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Star Trek: The Next Generation
The 07x23 episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, called "Emergence," takes place on a holodeck Orient Express. This should be added to the TV section. Nahum (talk) 06:54, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Where's the intrigue?
This article is in today's "On this day..." on the front page and the teaser says that it was known for its "intrigue and luxury", both of which are not detailed well in the article. What sort of intrigue happened on the train? What luxury accomodations were available on this train and not on others? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.103.84.36 (talk) 13:19, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Distance and time
It would be nice to know how long the routes were and how long the journey's took. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.242.84 (talk) 10:50, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

La Dolce Vita/Accor
Accor has announced that in partnership with SNCF that they are bringing back the Orient Express, should a new article be created or should it be added in here as it is a relaunch of the brand? Jaedenediting (talk) 00:04, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Clearing up confusion
I'm not sure how to tag a user but it think this is how Oknazevad but anyways that's not the point but Oknazevad seems to believe that the Orient Express revival by Accor & SNCF is not bringing back the original train/brand so I would like to clear it up for them and any other users. SNCF owns the rights to the Orient Express explained well in these pages by Luxury Train Club along with this the SNCF website has its own section for the service In 2017 Accor bought half of the Orient Express brand from SNCF originally to launch a chain of hotels but it transited into hotels & relaunch the service (mainly the first paragraph), something also that may confuse some people is the La Dolce Vita branding which is a different service around Italy ran by Orient Express (SNCF/Accor) under the branding of Orient Express La Dolce Vita. Another source below confirms that this is indeed a return of the original Orient Express service & clear up confusion "Belmond has a one-off licensing deal to use the Orient Express name on its Venice Simplon train, Franklin confirmed, while Accor has the rights to the brand as a whole." this confirms that this isn't any old licensed service but indeed the return of the original brand. Another thing that causes confusion is that the hotels were originally planned to be licensed before Accor actually bought part of the brand. I hope this clears up any confusion! (also this is my first time using the source page so sorry if there are any mistakes!) Jaedenediting (talk) 08:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Jaedenediting


 * Its not letting me edit my original post but I do think that a new article should be made for the revival as they are now diversifying the brand with hotels and even luxury cruises so it will need an article in the future to seperate between the two eras Jaedenediting (talk) 08:10, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * First off, if they own the brand, then how come it was OBB that operated the train at the end of the original run? More importantly, how is this really specifically a revival when the route is already served by an OBB Nightjet, and when they haven't announced a specific route yet. Because that's the point. The Orient Express was not a specific vehicle, it was a route, and one that was fairly routine by the end. The rest is simply marketing fluff. Most importantly, you added to the article, and I adjusted to appropriate weight of material without the useless marketing nonsense. You keep adding POV junk. And the hotels are utterly irrelevant to a train, by the way. oknazevad (talk) 14:07, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The original Orient Express service stopped running in 1962 and was replaced by the Direct Orient Express (also owned by Wagons-Lit) but in 1971 Wagons-Lit started leasing the service to different operators and selling train cars but in 1977 this service was stopped altogether however Wagons-Lit started licensing the name to the operators of the Direct Orient Express which evolved into the Orient Express service which was cancelled in 2009. In the late 1970s SNCF acquired the Orient Express brand & Rail service and started licensing the brand name out for rail services. In 1996 Accor took over Wagons-Lit and split the business with a new company called, Wagons-Lit Diffusion taking over the rights & some rail services of Wagons-Lit in 2012 Wagons-Lit Diffusion sold most of the remaining Orient Express rights & assets to SNCF giving SNCF almost full control of the Orient Express brand (this explains how SNCF got the rights if OBB last operated the service and any other confusion that could arise). Accor purchased 50% of the Orient Express brand from SNCF in 2017 and in 2018 Accor acquired the license to operate Orient Express Hotels from Wagons-Lit Diffusion (which still owned the rights to Orient Express in the hotel business). To answer your question about the route, they have announced the route of the service which will be from Paris-Istanbul with a stop in the Croatian city of Split and it also might start in Rome (the Rome start seems to be the original plan but was replaced by the Paris start). The marketing stuff can be removed as I was mostly trying to get in all the information into the article, but the main point I'm trying to get across is that it IS a revival of the original brand/service and not privately run/licensed. Along with this the hotels are important to the brand but do not belong in this article and I think that the entire relaunch should have a new article about it with the services (La Dolce Vita & The Orient Express), hotels & cruises.
 * References (some missing)
 * https://skift.com/2014/02/26/the-curious-rebranding-of-orient-express-hotels-into-the-belmond-brand/
 * https://www.wagons-lits-diffusion.com/en/
 * https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-27/accor-s-new-orient-express-hotels-are-a-train-ride-back-in-time
 * https://www.timeout.com/croatia/news/orient-express-returns-to-croatia-111722
 * And references from the Wikipedia article about the service were used
 * I hope this clears it up! :) Jaedenediting (talk) 02:52, 13 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I see indeed that SNCF and Accor now own the rights to the name, and that Accor is for all intents and purposes the corporate successor to CIWL, save for the actual business of supplying car attendant crews for sleeper trains, which was sold to Newrest. They can legally put the Orient Express name any train they desire, and they apparently so desire for their newly announced service using reclaimed vintage cars.


 * But a named train isn't about a set of train cars, as those change over time, nor is it just a brand. It's a physical route and the regular service pattern on that route. The announced route matches none of the three historic routes with Orient Express in their names. None of them went through Split, nor did any of them go to Rome. And the historic routes were regular services. One may have travelled in style aboard those trains, as it was a long journey and high-class amenities were a way to retain travelers, but it was still about moving the people from point A to point B as in any passenger service, not about just pampering them while they were aboard the train. From looking at the website of the new service, it's pretty obvious that these plans are the railway equivalent of a cruise ship, not a serious regular service. Just like the Venice Simplon Orient Express (or the defunct Nostalgic Orient Express, which literally used the same cars). It's not any more a true revival just because it's being operated by Accor instead of Belmond (who, as noted, used to use the name for hotels and other things besides their tourist train as well). It's not a real regular train as the historic service was, so saying it's a return of the service is overstating the facts.


 * Also, let's clarify the three historic routes, because saying the Direct Orient Express evolved into the train that ended in 2009 is plain wrong.


 * The original Orient Express began in 1883 and ran Paris–Strasbourg–Munich–Vienna–Budapest–Bucharest–Istanbul (the latter originally via a ferry from Vama until a direct route opened a few years after service started).
 * The Simplon Orient Express began after World War I as an alternative that avoided Germany and Austria in case of future trouble. (Spoiler: there was future trouble.) It ran a more southerly route, Paris–Lausanne–Milan–Venice–Zagreb–Belgrade–Sofia–Istanbul, taking advantage of the new Simplon Tunnel on the Switzerland–Italy border. This is the route aboard which the novel Murder on the Orient Express actually takes place.
 * The Alberg Orient Express also started after WWI, and ran via the Alberg Pass between the other two routes, going Paris–Zurich–Innsbruck–Vienna before following the eastern part of the original route.


 * All three were suspended for World War II (the above mentioned trouble), but returned afterwards, despite going behind the Iron Curtain. In 1962, the Alberg route was dropped entirely, the original route was cut back to Bucharest permanently, and the Simplon route became the Direct Orient Express, so named as it was the only one that still ran directly to Istanbul, though only a couple times a week, with most trains ending in Belgrade. The Direct Orient Express was discontinued in 1977, ending regular direct Paris–Istanbul service. The Paris–Venice portion of that route is what the VSOE tourist train, which started in 1982, runs on. (The defunct Nostalgic Orient Express, which ran from 1976 to 2007, used the Alberg route.)


 * But despite the shut down of the Direct Orient Express, the original Orient Express route continued running to Bucharest under that name. Even after CIWL sold off their old cars and the operation of the train was assumed by OBB, CIWL and its successors still provided the car attendants on the train, so in every practical way, it was still the Orient Express. It was cut back to Budapest in 1991 (you'd think the fall of communism would have made it easier to continue running to Bucharest, but no), then to Vienna in 2001. It wasn't until the train lost its direct Paris service in 2007, though, that it's time was up. The rump Strasbourg–Vienna service ended in 2009, the last regular Orient Express service.


 * Until just over a year ago. That's when OBB revived daily direct Paris–Strasbourg–Munich–Vienna Nightjet service as part of a general wave of night train revivals in Europe. It's a regularly scheduled service, not a tourist cruise, like the real Orient Express, and it plies the original route. Oh, and as an added bonus, Newrest is the car attendant provider on all OBB Nightjets. The only thing it's missing is the name. That's worthy of being called a revival, more than a tourist train, regardless of the current owners of the brand slapping the name on an unrelated route. oknazevad (talk) 07:43, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * So what's best is to wait until the proper routes are revealed? Jaedenediting (talk) 07:54, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'd say yes, at the minimum. Then we can reassess. oknazevad (talk) 08:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)