Talk:Orpheus/Archive 1

Comments
Orpheus in music and literature (someone else can track down all of the paintings and art references)-

The Play was probably performed in ancient times, although nothing is known about the music that was performed there, and no one recorded it on minidisc, so I will skip forward a few thousand years....

In 1601, the renaissance was high, the aristocracy had money, and Vienna was the place to look for for music. Around this time, the Florentine Camerata was formed, and they envisioned a new art form, one where the story was sung, and music was acted out... Since it was the renaissance and all, anyone who was anyone was trying to reinvent classical ideals- The ancient greeks were in, and the Catholic church was old news (although the Church still had influence, those with the money decide what music is popular, and they wanted something entertaining.) The first subjects of this new art-form, known as Opera, were stories from Greek mythology, and right away the Music themed "Orpheus" seemed a perfect match. The first to take a crack at the legend was the composer Jacopo Peri, and his small liberetto was performed for the wedding of Henry the IV and Made de' Medici. However, in 1607, Claudio Monteverdi made a large extended version of "L'Orfeou" (Orpheus) and this Opera proved so incredibly popular, that it practically launched the Opera movement and it is still performed to this day. The first operas were mainly "recitive" or meandering song speak, set to music. Soon, though, the audience responded to the melodies of more song like passages, and, the "aria' was born. Monteverdi's L'Orfeou is the very birth of the Aria, which became some of the most important element in opera.

Of course with something so popular, it just doesn't feel all that great to tack a sad ending on the end of it all, so various happy endings have been added to the end of the Orpheus tale. by 1609, Monteverdi attached a fifth Act that has Apollo come down from the heavens, it is revealed the Apollo is actually Orpehus' father and he has Orpheus come up and relax with all of the other gods up there.

The four other most important Opera's in the Orpheus Tradition were Glucks' "Orfeo ed Euridice", Offenbach's parody "Orpheus in the Underworld", and Glazabigi's adaptation "Orfeou", and Telemann's "Orpehus"

All of these Operas are important, although if you hate Opera, the Offenbach version is the most fun by far to watch. Dick and fart jokes, rollicking star crossed lovers, and the first ever "can can" make this one of the all time classic "Opera Buffa".

In the same spirit of sampling the past, the myth has been visited many times in twentieth century music (check out Richard Strauss's complex tonal "Ariadne auf Naxos) and literature as well, however most memorably, it can now be captured on film.

And captured on film it is perfectly by Cocteau in "Orphee"(1940) also based on his play. Get to your local library and check it out, it will be right next to "Beauty and the Beast" which you should go ahead and rent as well.

Also check out Marlon Brando as Orpheus (!) in Tennessee Williams' "The Fugitive Kind". Brando is a traveling rebel without a cause, who just happens to play the guitar beautifully. This is based on the Williams' play "Orpheus Descending"

"Black Orpheus" is another very notable film, this time setting the Orpheus legend in Rio, and introducing many square Americans to the gyrations of Salsa and Bossa Nova. Criterion has re-released the film with a beautiful new transfer on DVD, and it is also worth tracking down. The film has also recently been remade as "Orfeou" also set in Rio, this time with Orpheus as a pop star Ricki Martin type, laptop in hand.

A few books have also explored the Orpheus legend from a modernist slant, most often making Orpehus and Eurydice rock stars. From romance novels (check out Roberta Gellis with "Enchanted Fire") to young adult (Cynthia Voigt does a retelling with "Orfe") to Sci Fi ("Galatea 2.2", a computer scientist creates a program, and it follows the Orpheus myth)

However, all of these novels can be passed over for Salman Rushdie's "The Ground beneath her feet" No other novel mixes the source material so brilliantly into a stew of references. Rushdie makes allusions to probably every single source mentioned above in this great novel and a hundred more that no one has caught yet. Pick this one up.


 * Might this page need a disambiguation? There are a number of alternative meanings listed at the bottom.

I'm not completely convinced that Charpenier's musical drama 'La descente d'Orphée aux enfers' is unfinished. The only tangible evidence for this is a blank page following the end of the second act. At the same time, the amount of paper saving done toward the end of the second act borders on astonishing. If he meant to go on, he wouldn't have been writing and over-writing as he did. (You'd kind of need to see the manuscript to know what I'm talking about...but it's pretty hilarious - I'm telling you.) When compared to other works of the same scope, such as Acteon, it seems complete in terms of form and nuance. The final scene is very final scene. Plus, though operatic, I would not categorize it as an opera - and I think Cessac agrees with me on that one if I'm not mistaken. Let's not even discuss Hitchcock. His hunch about a third act is as far off as his thoughts on Medée and the Noels. Coolsnak3 22:54, 26 December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolsnak3 (talk • contribs)

song "Blue Orpheus, by Todd Rundgren — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.16.244.2 (talk) 03:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr. T. and the Women?
Anyone out there familiar with this movie? Its plot seems to have a whole lot in common with the Orpheus legend.


 * vote to delete this comment —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.149.186.248 (talk) 05:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Eurydice only an Apparition?
On the main page the following is claimed: "according to Plato, the infernal gods only “presented an apparition” of Eurydice to him." I've been trying to verify this but cannot find any reference to this in Plato. What are the sources? --unsigned
 * No idea, but it sounds oddly similar to the version in The Last of All Suns by John C. Wright. Quotation from the story: "He-Is-Rich, who rules the tribes of the dead, granted you leave to bring her up to the world again; but he did this to mock you, for a shadow cannot step into the sunlight." And later: "He-Sings-Death had been allowed to go down into the underworld and returned, not to bring his wife to life again, but to let the horrors who fed off the souls of the dead following him back up to the light again. That was why he had been told not to turn his head; so that he would not see what was following him." --68.44.13.236 02:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

love the young in the flower of their youth?
Could someone--preferrably the one who wrote it into the article--tell me where this quote is derived from?

Vandalism
I think the article has been vandalized, will someone please do a reedit and correct it? I see the names Barbie and Pussy in the titles and do not believe either to be appropriate and there are a few other suspect areas.TurtleofXanth 23:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

orpheus
who was orpheuses father?
 * Oeagrus, kind of Thrace or Appollo. I added the king's name to the article. Xxaris 11:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Derveni is in Greece!
Derveni was mentioned to be in the Republic of Macedonia, but in fact it is in Greece, about 10 km north of Thessaloniki, in the municipality of Mygdonia. (See why Greeks consider the name 'Republic of Macedonia' an issue?). I have corrected accordingly. Xxaris 13:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Company of young girls?
I thought Orpheus spurned the love of women and took up with young boys, hence the reference to pederasty. I think I remember the article saying that before, but it looks as though someone has gone through and changed all the references to Orpheus' homosexual preferences after the death of Eurydice. If no one else corrects this, I will. Cami Solomon 01:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)Cami Solomon

Article was changed by 74.237.252.27 to confuse/eliminate pederasty references--I am restoring the original text. Yowzaboodle 18:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * See Note on Ovid below. Danny Sprinkle (talk) 17:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Map proposal
Can someone please remove this Megistias person's rights to edit this page. He is clearly a nutter and a fascist. Then again many Greeks are which was demonstrated by their aggressive policy towards Macedonian and Bulgarian minorities in the areas of Thessaloniki and Greece's attitude towards the Republic of Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.63.213.74 (talk) 11:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Also indicates Orpheus and Spartacus tribes,the Cicones and the Maedi.Megistias (talk) 07:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus
Orpheus as King of the Cicones which is in Greek land now and he was a Thracian born in Pieria in Greece ,He may have been imaginary 100% anyway.A Greek myth about a Thracian.

Where he died 1.His head fell into the sea and was cast by the waves upon the island of Lesbos where the Lesbians buried it, and for having done this the Lesbians have the reputation of being skilled in music. 2.It has also been said that Orpheus' scattered limbs were gathered by the MUSES*, who buried them and put the Lyre among the constellations as a memorial. birth and where he ruledPieria(birthplace) on the left with the parallel lines and Cicones(kingdom) on the right with the circles.His body? A Greek Island or Outer space.

On parentage 1. Oeagrus(thracian) & Calliope(greek muse) The muses were greeks then deified into gods.

1.Apollo & Pierus' Daughter(Pierus is a greek king of Pella in Macedonia and son of Magnes,another greek)

I see a Thracian and a Greek and a God and a Greek.Other varieties of the myth are similar.

This tatul burial in Bulgaria is modern bulgarian nationalism.Megistias (talk) 12:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Dont you have enough Gods and divinities to profess as your "Greek" ones, leave Orpheus alone, he was a Thracian, and you may try to call Macedonia yours but Thrace is Bulgarian. It is you who is a nationalist Mr "Megistias" haha Where are your sources to support ovcharov???????Megistias (talk) 12:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Nationalistic claim " "Orpheus lived in Bulgaria," Prof Nikolay Ovcharov, a Bulgarian archaeologist".We know he was born in Greece and reigned in Greece and had nothing to do with the area of modern Bulgaria.Megistias (talk) 12:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thus the MUSES are sometimes called PIERIDES, but otherwise this is the name of nine sisters, daughters of Pierus, who defied the MUSES in a contest of song and, having been defeated, were turned into magpies, greenfinches, goldfinches, ducks, and other birds.
 * Keep your POV meaning for you, but read the aricle about Tatul and the added sourses ! Jingby (talk) 12:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus was born in Thrace. Such state as Greece did not exist at this time! Jingby (talk) 13:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Nor was Bulgaria or Bulgarians....he was born in the part of Greek Thrace.Read what i write and dont put words in my mouth.Megistias (talk) 13:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

He was born in Thrace and died there! Jingby (talk) 13:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC) In the Greek part of Thrace.Not the current Bulgarian one.Megistias (talk) 13:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Some proves? Jingby (talk) 13:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC) You dont belong here.Have you read anything related to orpheus or the article even?Ever seen a map?birth and where he ruledPieria(birthplace) on the left with the parallel lines and Cicones(kingdom) on the right with the circles.Megistias (talk) 13:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC) This was part of ancient Thrace not of Grece! Jingby (talk) 13:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Read what i write, and dont put words in my mouth again.Modern locations.And see where Parnassus was even than and Pieria.OrpheusPierus was king of Pella in Macedonia and son of Magnes.Megistias (talk) 13:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Nothing to do with modern geographical Bulgaria and certainly nothing to do with bulgarians.Megistias (talk) 13:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Megistias, someone should put something else into your mouth. and that map of yours, what a coincidence that you drew it. very pretty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.250.6.247 (talk) 05:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC) I f you do not know the bondaries of Ancient Thrace and who inhabited Pieria just read the both articles! Jingby (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC) If you belives in that, you are free! I know that he was a Thracian king, not a Greek! Jingby (talk) 13:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC) He was a Thracian, exactly and didn't live in the area of modern Bulgaria.Also read more on his parentage and dont mislead people.Megistias (talk) 13:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC) I t is not so important! For example 60 years ago it was part of Bulgaria and 100 years ago of Turkey! Jingby (talk) 14:03, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Ovcharov and current several Bulgarian researchers want to prove-the impossible- that he lived in the bulgarian part of thrace in a most despicable nationalistic manner.He was Thracian not Bulgar nor slav.And his parentge shows clear ancient greek presence to add that he live in the Greek part of ancient Thrace.Parnassus,Pieria,Cicones.Megistias (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC) Take your medicine and go sleeping! Jingby (talk) 14:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC) You first.Ovcharov claims....Megistias (talk) 14:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Early life is lacking
Orpheus Parentage

Oeagrus & Calliope

unknown & Pierus' Daughter

Oeagrus is sometimes called son of Ares. Otherwise Charops 4 is mentioned as his father. Charops 4 is known for having warned Dionysus 2 of the plot of Lycurgus 1 against him. That is why Dionysus 2, having defeated the Thracians in a battle and killed Lycurgus 1, made Charops 5, out of gratitude for his help, king of Thrace, and instructed him in the secret initiatory rites. Later Oeagrus inherited both the throne and the initiatory rites. Calliope* is one of the MUSES*. Pierus* was king of Pella in Macedonia and son of Magnes*1, son of Aeolus* 1 and a naiad. He was father of nine daughters who defied the MUSES in a contest of song being defeated by the goddesses. The MUSES themselves are sometimes called by the name 'Pierides'*.


 * Greek*.

See above alsoMegistias (talk) 13:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Prof Nikolay Ovcharov is promoting this unbased view for tourism and nationalism...........
Orpheus Promotes Bulgaria in Switzerland

Orpheus will be Bulgaria's "poster face" at a tourism fair in Switzerland. Leading archeologist Prof Nikolay Ovcharov will present the most interesting finds from Haskovo and Kardjali, southeastern Bulgaria. Both regions will take part in the fair under the motto "Bulgaria - the sacred land of Orpheus". Over 1600 exhibitors are expected to take part in the forum that will be attended by over 80 000 visitors. The accents in the new tourist destination are Perperikon and the tombs in the village of Alexandrovo. The historical and cultural sites of Zlatograd, Kardjali, Haskovo, Lyubimets and Svilengrad will be promoted at the fair.

"poster face"

Orpheus didn't live in the area of Bulgaria or born there or died or buried there ovcharov fraud"Orpheus lived in Bulgaria," Prof Nikolay Ovcharov, a Bulgarian archaeologist, said yesterday.....Against all primary and secondary sources he declared this blatant lie.Megistias (talk) 03:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

How, exactly, is this article a member of Bulgaria's wikiproject? I don't understand how a Greek mythological figure can really be connected to Bulgaria.Bkwrmgrl1 (talk) 23:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * At least has the Professor decree, which you have not and I would rather believe to him than to you. Please do not put Professor in inverted commas, this is not a forum for your personal opinion. --Gligan (talk) 21:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Bulgaria
We know that Orpheus lived in the Rhodopes, not the Greek part of the Rhodopes. The Rhodopes are part of Bulgaria => everything related to the mountain might go in the scope of the Project. I don't know what your problem is. Simeon of Bulgaria is part of Wikiproject Greece despite the fact that he has nothing to do with that country - Greece didn't even exist then. --Gligan (talk) 21:11, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Ha Nice one Gligane bravo! hubavo mu go kaza na toia fashits.
 * He did not live in Rhodopes bulgarian part as the sources show he lived in parts of ancient thrace out of bulgaria and into greece.Turkey has part of ancient thrace as well and its not part of this article of course.His mythological birth, death and life(Cicones were located in the part of Thrace thats now in modern greece) occured in locations that coincide with the areas of greece.Bulgaria has wrongly used Orpheus 's image to boost its tourism , thats the only "relation".


 * Someone remove wikiproject Bulgaria.There is no relation. If we take it on just ancient Thrace then we would have to include WIKIPROJECT TURKEY and others.


 * Read the sources.Orpheus has nothing to do with Bulgaria other than him being used by the Bulgarian goverment to boost its tourism.If Bulgaria goes in than all regions of ancient Thrace goes it that correspond to modern states.Republic of Macedonia,European Turkey,Serbia,Kosovo and any others.
 * Bulgaria did not exist at the time nor did Bulgarians in the region, following your logic Turks are Thracians,Ionians and all the peoples whose regions their state includes.Forget it. Megistias (talk) 18:19, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I've added a couple of comments that Bulgarian traditions link Orpheus to Gela and Dyavolsko Gurlo cave. I don't know how long these edits will stay, judging by the comments here. Perhaps we should keep the nationalism out of it and say that these are folk traditions from the modern state of Bulgaria, which occupies much of the territory formerly known as Thrace. I am not really satisfied with the sources I have found. Can anyone find a good early source for the folk traditions that Orpheus was born in Gela and descended to the underworld via Dyavolsko Gurlo? Pignut (talk) 15:00, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Bingo! Virgil Georgics book 4. Mentions places all over the Balkan peninsula in connection with Orpheus, including the land of the Getae which is modern day Romania and even Tanais in the Ukraine! Most significantly he specifically states that the head of Orpheus floated down the river Hebrus or Marica. This river flows for most of its length through modern day Bulgaria, and only a short stretch of it borders Greece just before it flows into the sea, and this is nowhere near to any of the three modern day Greek locations given as the place of his death. If he died on a mountain and his head floated down a stream into the Maritsa, this would mean the story is set somewhere on the north side of the Rhodopes in modern day Bulgaria, near a tributary of the Maritsa...the river Vacha around Gela or Trigrad would fit the bill quite nicely! I think it's time to update the map, including only places within the boundaries of modern day Greece is hard to justify. In fairness though we should also mark on Taenarus (Cape Matapan), as Virgil names this as the cave where Orpheus descended to the underworldPignut (talk) 17:46, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Father is Oiagros or Oeagrus?
All the references but the one in the first paragraph give Orpheus's father as Oeagrus. If this alternate spelling is intentional, it should be noted, but, more likely, this should be corrected and any rationale for alternate spellings should be given in the article on Oeagrus.

Derek Price (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Garbage Farm
Yet another "article" that's 80% a list of band-related trivia, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER genuinely to do with Orpheus.

The music industry is a business, and their products just as much products as washing powder or viagra. Thus, this article is mostly spam.

Get rid of all the trivia lists on this "article." It's crap. Typical wikipedia -- but still crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.234.4 (talk) 17:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Five years later, despite your entirely apposite remarks, the cr*p is still there. It's irremovable. It's Wikipedia. --Hors-la-loi (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Birthplace
His Birthplace is absolutely uncertain. I am going to remove some POV-s.

What an ignorant comment. With respect - go and read more sources before you say something like that. Most (unbiased) historians know he was born in Thrace. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.120.114.163 (talk) 13:44, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Porter citation
I couldn't help but add the citation for William Porter's speculation re JCF Fischer's Uranie; see the blogpost for Porter's interesting "sort-of bash" of Wikipedia! Judd (talk) 13:11, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Bad redirect?
Orphic mysteries redirects here. Is that a simple mistake, or is there a reason why it doesn't redirect to the article on the cult? Also,... perhaps /that/ article should be renamed for consistency with the other mysteries? -- Fullstop (talk) 23:05, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources describing Orpheus as of Thracian origin and deified by the Thracians.

 * The expansion of the Greek world, eighth to sixth centuries B.C., The Cambridge ancient history ; vol. 3, pt. 3, John Boardman, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, Cambridge University Press, 1982, ISBN 0521234476, p. 274.
 * Encyclopedia of ancient Greece, Encyclopedias of the Middle Ages Series, Nigel Guy Wilson, Routledge, 2006, ISBN 0415973341, p. 272.
 * Lectures on Ancient History, Barthold Georg Niebuhr, Biblio Bazaar, LLC, 2008, ISBN 0559238282, p. 142.
 * Encyclopedia of Prehistory: Europe, Peter Neal Peregrine, Melvin Ember, Human Relations Area Files, Springer inc., 2001, ISBN 0306462583, P 82.
 * The Cults of the Greek States. Volume 5, Lewis Richard Farnell, Adamant Media Corporation, 2005, ISBN 140219238X, pp.104-106.

Conclusion: He was probably of Thracian, Pierian origin and the Thracians deified the cult of Orpheus too. Jingby (talk) 08:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No Thracian origin but as stated in the article.The sources in it supercede the ones you placed here.Megistias (talk) 09:10, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this a joke? Its not good trying to deceive.Source 1 says (page 274) what is written below,page 54 mentions Egyptians and there is nothing more.

"The tradition that Thracians occupied the area below Mount Olympus on the Pierian coast was established very early and Orpheus was believed to have been buried there."
 * The expansion of the Greek world, eighth to sixth centuries B.C., The Cambridge ancient history ; vol. 3, pt. 3, John Boardman, Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, Cambridge University Press, 1982, ISBN 0521234476, p. 274.,
 * So you know no archeological source points out to a origin in Thracian mythology to Orpheus.Thats why some Bulgarian archeologists have been making absurd claims.Megistias (talk) 09:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

His origins remains unclear if Thracian or Macedonian: see Orpheus and Greek religion: a study of the Orphic movement Mythos (Princeton, N.J.) William Keith Chambers Guthrie, Princeton University Press, 1993, ISBN 0691024995, pp. 62-63. Describing him as a Greek is more then biased. Jingby (talk) 09:36, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Archibald has made clear what his mythological origins were.Archeological facts dont fade away.What is biased are your opinions and trying to deceive with the above posts like the one in page 274.Megistias (talk) 09:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Page 62 and 63 are about the various myths written about him by ancient Greek writers.The indifference is in the ancient writers not in modern archeology.Megistias (talk) 09:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Your pro-Greek POV as ollways is extreme, but schoolars still fircely debate whether Orphism was in fact a coherent religious tradition or merely antique label or wheter it really existed a real Orpheus, but one suggestion is that behind the legend was a primitive figure of a real Thracian shaman. Classical mythology in English literature: a critical anthology, Geoffrey Miles, Routledge, 1999, ISBN 0415147557, pp. 54-55.Jingby (talk) 09:52, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You gonna stop with the insults? and linking books in general with not inline citations? And up to now you have done this more than seven times.Megistias (talk) 09:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Your latest book is Classical mythology in English literature: a critical anthology.Irrelevant.Megistias (talk) 09:55, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

What about the Dictionary of Oxford University Press, which states he was a Thracian: A Dictionary of the Ancient Greek World, David Sacks, Oswyn Murray, Margaret Bunson, Oxford University Press US, 1997, ISBN 0195112067, p. 161. Jingby (talk) 10:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * He has no origin in Thracian mythology.The character was given Thracian roots in the myth in the time of the Persian wars as the article states.Megistias (talk) 10:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Find a better source if one exists,.There is nothing to prove this claim.Orphism became widespread in the Hellenistic era.10:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If i had found something that attributes, reliably a Thracian mythological origin i would have put it in myself.Megistias (talk) 10:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The current lede is a mess of infantile nationalistic confusions and bad English. The attempt to force some "Greek" versus "Thacian" argument has led to total confusion. We need to be clear when early references were made, how precise they are and when his supposed Thacian birth was first noted in surviving literature. That he exists in Greek mythology is nlot in doubt, since it is Greek literature and Greek cults that are known. To claim his as a Greek by "nationality" is pointless. Paul B (talk) 11:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am nowhere claiming(i mean ancient greeks not greeks) a Greek nationality, i mean origin of the myth to  ancient Greek cultureMegistias (talk) 11:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * And what evidence do you have that he was not identified as Thacian in the early forms of the myths? Paul B (talk) 11:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Moreschi removed this to rewrite it,diff.Some of the sources are;


 * The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace: Orpheus Unmasked (Oxford Monographs on Classical Archaeology) by Z. H. Archibald,1998,ISBN-10-0198150474,page 209,"Representations of Orpheus in Attic vase painting begin about 460 BC...The singer is first shown in Greek garb, only later does he gain Thracian attributes.."
 * The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace: Orpheus Unmasked (Oxford Monographs on Classical Archaeology) by Z. H. Archibald,1998,ISBN-10-0198150474,Preface:Stories about Orpheus were circulating in Greece from the sixth century BC if not earlier.Around the time of the Persian wars, it became fashionable to give the hero Thracian roots
 * The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace: Orpheus Unmasked (Oxford Monographs on Classical Archaeology) by Z. H. Archibald,1998,ISBN-10-0198150474,page 170,"'Holy men' of his kind were sometimes identified...Greeks connected the mythical figure of Orpheus whose backround is entirely Greek ,with Thrace."
 * Interpretations of Greek mythology by Jan N. Bremmer,ISBN-0709932707,1987,page ,"When a figure in Greek mythology is given a foreign origin this does not necesseraly mean he was at a certain point of Greek history or rather pre-history introduced from outside into the system of Greek mythology"Megistias (talk) 11:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

really, all that needs to be stated is that there is a tradition, dating from roughly X, that gave Orpheus Thracian connections. Why this is we're not really sure, but since he's a mythical figure the veracity, or not, of this tradition is irrelevant. Moreschi (talk) 12:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I had this in and tried to elaborate the first instances of Orphues depictions and how it turned out.Are you going to rewrite it in better english than i did?Megistias (talk) 12:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Arhibald's explation gives an image of how it began and when and into what the mythological figure changed into.Megistias (talk) 12:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, we need to avoid unnecessary pushing of nationalistic buttons, so I think a straightforward statement that he is a mythological figure stories about whom circulate from the sixth century and who is later identified as Thacian. We don't need to try to either justify or 'disprove' the Thacian origin story. Paul B (talk) 14:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sticking to Archibald's chronological elaboration would be the best way to go (any excess material could be ommited).She puts everything into context.Megistias (talk) 14:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Explaination of edit 318225825
Scroll boxes are not supposed to be in article though the article has grown too long. Please see Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 11 for the discussion about it. Please notify me if I am wrong. Thank you, Srin  ivas  10:48, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Quote

 * diff, Thats from Strabo mentioned above.Megistias (talk) 11:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Wasn't made clear. The quote isn't needed anyway, it doesn't contribute much. Moreschi (talk) 11:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to be fine, the wizard and trickster issue seems to be in the Strabo section as well.Megistias (talk) 11:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

material needed
Given the enormous impact of the Orphic myth on later Western culture, from the poetry of Ovid and Virgil to the music of Monteverdi and Gluck, there needs to be something on that. I shall start working on a draft at Talk:Orpheus/Workpage: all are welcome to contribute. Moreschi (talk) 12:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thracian origin
It is a fact that the Orpheus myth is a of a thracian origin. However, User:Megistias just deletes this part withouht even argumenting. Is it appropriate to tolerate such barbarian behavior ? --PtBg (talk) 12:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Consensus has been reached for some time now. And if you had taken the time to look it up the myth is not of thracian origin but of ancient greek origin.Megistias (talk) 12:50, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What references do you use ? --PtBg (talk) 12:54, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You can see the discussions above. Also see Paleo-Balkanic_religion, that is the only thracian mythology that is known.Megistias (talk) 12:56, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe you didnt understand my question: What academic sources do you use to say it is of ancient greek origin ? --PtBg (talk) 12:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The myth is ancient Greek, the charakter is depicted as a Thracian and that is in many times.Megistias (talk) 19:32, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * These do not prove that the myth did not have ancient Greek origin nor do they attempt to website, book. Megistias (talk) 19:41, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also the first is a collection of notes on Orpheus myth and the second a book on "Reallexikon der germanischen Altertumskunde", "Material encyclopedia of the Germanic antiquity customer"Megistias (talk) 19:44, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I have some difficulties to understand your English. However, fact is that there is no unified opinion about whoose myth it is. You are only citing one sided citations (let alone tha fact that you are only citing whole books w/o page references) and do not let the other opinions to appear. This shouldn't be the case, so please don't delete the references of the others. Thanks. --PtBg (talk) 17:58, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * His depiction as a Thracian is noted in the article. Your have not even read it. And its Greek mythology not Thracian one.Megistias (talk) 09:54, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Orpheus: The Myth of the Poet, C. Segal, 1993, ISBN-978-0801837081 Charles Segal's Orpheus: The Myth of the Poet (London, 1989) focuses mainly on the classical accounts and on Rilke's poetry. Its a Greek myth
 * History of the literature of ancient Greece: to the period of Isocrates,1848, K. Müller, G.C.Lewis Greek mythology
 * Reallexikon der germanischen Altertumskunde, J. Hoops,H. Beck, 1999, ISBN-978-3110163155 - Greek myth
 * The student's Ovid: selections from the Metamorphoses, Margaret W. Musgrove, 2002 Greek mythology
 * Researches Into the Physical History of Mankind (v. 3); Ethnography of Europe. 3d Ed. 1841, James Cowles Prichard ,150 year old book,not even relevant
 * Thrace and the Aegean: proceedings of the Eighth International Conference, 2002, Alexander Fol 'Not disproving Greek myth origin
 * Thracian legends, A. Fol, 1973, ASIN-B0000D5MHW Not disproving Greek myth originMegistias (talk) 10:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Any neutral non-Balkan source disclaiming that its originating from Greek mythology? No such data even exist. Archibald gives the best account, he was not even depicted as a Thracian at first by the ancient Greeks but just as a Greek


 * The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace: Orpheus Unmasked (Oxford Monographs on Classical Archaeology) by Z. H. Archibald,1998,ISBN-10-0198150474,page 209,"Representations of Orpheus in Attic vase painting begin about 460 BC...The singer is first shown in Greek garb, only later does he gain Thracian attributes.."Megistias (talk) 10:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * So, you claim you are bigger authority than all the scholars, who definitely attribute him to have Thracian origin, and to be a thracian poet and singer ? Or do you claim your interpretation is the only existing one, and you are the ultimate truth on Earth? It could have been incorporated into the ANCIENT greek mythology, but, please be kind if possible, and try to read carefully what some schoolars say: that it has a Thracian origin, and Orpheus is a Thracian poet and singer.  I urge you not to evaluate which source is good, and which is not, and to place YOUR truth as the the only one. --PtBg (talk) 14:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You have not even read the article, Orpheus is a character from Greek mythology, in the myth he is a Thracian. Megistias (talk) 14:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Its not about the article, it is that the myth has a Thracian origin, and it is depicting a Thracian poet, singer (and king) --PtBg (talk) 14:34, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Deleted request for 3rd party opinion
About your Third Opinion Request: I have removed your 3O request from the list of active disputes because Third Opinions are not available in disputes which are incivil. There has been an edit war going on here since at least February 8 with mutual WP:3RR violations. I have requested page protection for this article.  T RANSPORTER M AN  ( TALK ) 19:59, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * From Third Opinion first paragraph of lede: "The third opinion process requires observance of good faith and civility from both editors in the discussion." (Emphasis added.) Edit warring is per se uncivil and a rejection of good faith, and that is particularly true when both editors have violated WP:3RR as has occurred here, so the dispute simply does not qualify for a Third Opinion under the Third Opinion rules. There are forms of dispute resolution which are available for disputes in which incivility is present but WP:3O is not one of them.  T RANSPORTER M AN  ( TALK ) 16:52, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I still cannot follow your argumentation for deleting the request for 3rd party opinions. There is clearly a dispute between two editors, while the one of them (Megistias) refuses to accept any different viewpoint (NOTE: it is a scholars viewpoint). "Third opinion is a means to request an uninvolved opinion regarding a content discussion involving two editors. When two editors do not agree, either editor may list a discussion here to seek a third opinion."
 * It seems that declaring without any argumentation a dispute for uncivil and with no good faith you are taking party from the beginning..
 * Since I am new here, could you clarify me based on what rights you deleted the request (e.g. you are special administrator with a special ability to classify uncivil disputes, or what were your concrete criteria) ? --PtBg (talk) 12:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The rules and my reasoning are plainly stated above and no further discussion of them is needed here. It is unfortunate that you are unable to follow my reasoning and thus misunderstand, at least in one essential part, the scope and purpose of the Third Opinion Project, but I do not know how to say it any more plainly than I already have.  T RANSPORTER M AN  ( TALK ) 17:15, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but your reasoning was not clear. It also not clear from the position of which role you are allowed to delete, and put end to a discussion singlehanded ? So, please be that friendly and introduce some more detailed and concrete clarifications. --PtBg (talk) 21:53, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The admin that had stabilized the article in the past as well as other admins and users, clearly reached a Consensus.Megistias (talk) 17:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Please reduce over-sourcing
Whenever I see a row of ten footnotes on the same word, I know the article has been slaughtered by POV-pushers. Such over-sourcing is never necessary. Whatever it is you want to support with those, please reduce them to just one or two of the highest-quality ones. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Archibald is more than enough, she analyzes all aspects of the myth, text-wise and in material evidence.Megistias (talk) 09:59, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also my lame remark was in this context, wp:lame. A similar situation was characterized like that in the past by an admin.Megistias (talk) 10:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

That the banal assertion "Orpheus is an important figure in Greek myth" should require a footnote at all, let alone eight of them, is one of those things for which Wikipedia is mocked. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:40, 24 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm going to whittle that absurd over-sourcing down to the scholarly bone. I've left the Routledge and, as suggested above, Archibald. Here are the leavings, in shrunken form.

Out of print, preview only. I didn't think we needed to keep "The complete idiot's guide" (sic - I'm not kidding). If any of these are restored for any reason (and please, not in their original positions), they should be correctly formatted. Some are simply not adequate for a Wikipedia article. Haploidavey (talk) 00:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've also changed the text - though minimally - because none of the cited sources (including the scholarly sources above - I'm not counting the non-scholarly ones, nor should any of us) actually say that he or his cult "are of Thracian origin". What they do say seems consistent with his being described as a "Thracian figure". Haploidavey (talk) 02:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)


 * This is an extremely important distinction, and what I suspected was going on in the handling of these sources. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:19, 10 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The section on mythology is also over-peppered with inline citation links. Some of these could be combined and placed at the end of sentences. This article still has the marks of a battleground. The lede should be uncluttered and offer a broad sweep of the article's content. It doesn't. The main text is muddled and unstructured; in the Etymology section, we have "his seemingly disparate roles as disappointed lover, transgressive musician and mystery-priest". But where does the disappointed lover come into it? Eurydice hasn't even been mentioned yet. And transgressive? How is the reader supposed to know?


 * And why does Strabo have a whole section to himself? Haploidavey (talk) 12:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, what a grump I've become. Rather than moan about it, I'll just edit it. Haploidavey (talk) 00:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Biased article
Unfortunately some passages of this article are not fully correct, and the article edition is completely biased and clearly overshadowed by one Megali-editor. You will find out who is this ! --PtBg (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Company of boys?
I was surprised to find the reference using the phrase- "company of young men", rather than boys. Other translations use the term boys, which leads to the question: which is it? The Latin is ambiguous, and relies on an understanding of the way in which such things were expressed with delicacy in the day (which I lack). I wonder whether the metaphorical suggestion of plucking the flower refers to virginity?124.169.11.18 (talk) 11:39, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Lead sentence
I find the current lead sentence rather odd. It is generally against MOSBIO to mention the subject's ethnicity so prominently in the lead unless it directly relates to subject's notability (not the case here). The fact that Orpheus was a legendary figure makes this even more odd. I have never encountered an article about a legendary mythological figure where "ethnicity" (if we can even call it that) features so prominently in the lead sentence. I propose the lead sentence be returned to the version of User:Moreschi, which I find much more elegant and informative as it tells us why Orpheus is notable. Athenean (talk) 00:43, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Thracian origins again
Because the Greeks themselves so persistently (though inconsistently) mark the Thracian origins of Orpheus, obviously this must be dealt with in the article. Asserting these things as reality, however, is a much trickier business. I've been trying to look for the supposed archaeological or art historical evidence for the existence of an "Orphic" tradition in what was ancient Thrace. I'm not having any luck so far. An Associated Press report published in The Guardian is not a scholarly source; archaeologists say all manner of things to journalists and The History Channel ("Mystery of Tut's Death Solved!"), but I'm assuming they've published their findings, if their digs are financed.

The main book I've found that would address this is Z. Archibald's The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace: Orpheus Unmasked, for which I haven't found an online preview. However, published remarks made by Archibald elsewhere cause me to doubt that this will unambiguously confirm what is wished by the anonymous IP editor who exclaimed so heatedly about Greek nationalism. Let me quote one passage at some length:

How far did the Thracians personalize their deities? How did their divine personalities express what was beyond the human sphere? Such mythologies as surely existed have not survived. Ancient Greek writers do provide some information about beliefs and practices but such references cannot be readily excerpted from their Greek context and Greek audiences. … There is no obvious way of subtracting from such isolated texts … what might have been non-Greek, in this case Thracian, ideas or beliefs, from what look like tentative Greek philosophical speculations. Even more hazardous is the use of heterogeneous texts from different periods (as has been done in the case of 'Thracian Orphism'), particularly when the majority of these post-date by a very considerable margin the formative phases of cult development for the region in question. The criteria by which an indigenous Thracian ritual tradition can be distinguished from the imagination of a Greek poet or philosopher's armchair have yet to be elucidated. — Z. H. Archibald, "Thracian Cult — from Practice to Belief," in Ancient Greeks West and East (Brill, 1999), pp. 427–28.

A note to this passage states: "This applies particularly to the many works on this subject by Alexander Fol, which have been highly influential in Bulgaria." There are no Thracian texts; evidence of the Thracian language is (as I understand it) limited to brief inscriptions and a few notes in Greek sources. Therefore, the interpretation of Thracian artifacts is dependent on what the Greeks say.

According to this look at the history of scholarship on the question (my link to which is in medias res), Fol himself became a little wary of "some extremes [that] had stemmed from his promotion of Orphism. Among them is a passionate local debate [italics mine] focusing on the question of precisely where south of the city of Plovdiv, in south-central Bulgaria, was the birthplace of Orpheus. Still, he insists, Thracian Orphism is here to stay and scholars must deal with this phenomenon even if only to diminish or reject it." The author of this interesting essay, Asen Kirin, looks at the nationalism associated with "Thracology."

I hope the anonymous IP editor will appreciate that good faith efforts are being made here to look for verifiable scholarly references. I've yet to see a Wikipedia article in the humanities that couldn't be improved. But perspective should be maintained: the myth of Orpheus, as is noted, is one of the most important in the classical tradition. People who come to the article having seen a painting of a scene with Orpheus, or from watching Offenbach's opera, or seeing an allusion in a poem, will not be well served by bombarding them at the outset with contentious material about whether or not "Orpheus" was really from Thrace. Just as the historicity of a man named Orpheus is beside the point for his meaning in Western culture, so too the question of whether there was an unrecoverable religion in ancient Thrace to which he was central. The question is interesting, and deserves a section, with Kirin's essay one starting point. But it doesn't bear on what the vast majority of WP readers will be seeking to learn about when they come to this article. Sorry for the length of this post. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:29, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Another promising source is: N. Theodossiev, "Cult Clay Figurines in Ancient Thrace: Archaeological Evidence for the Existence of Thracian Orphism," Kernos 9 (1996) 219–226. Unfortunately, I don't have access to this journal even at my local university library. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:01, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Please note that this "Thracian Orpheus" business is already immortalized for posterity at WP:LAME. If anyone keeps on pushing it with ludicrous over-citations and tendentious editing, as happened previously, they will get laughed at, trouted, and likely sanctioned under WP:ARBMAC. Cynwolfe would seem to be the voice of sanity here, and I suggest people follow their lead. Moreschi (talk) 19:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Not even that, it's just an IP troll that's been trolling this page for a while now. I don't see why we need to engage this person, it's generally best to DNFTT. If the disruption continues, I suggest requesting semi-protection. Athenean (talk) 20:12, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that makes me feel better. I've been minimally involved with the page, but the person was attacking me on my talk page so I wanted to try to make sure I knew what I was talking about, since I can sound more dismissive than I mean to sometimes. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:49, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I've never even heard about the Thracian aspect of Orpheus whilst I've been studying Classics at university. I'll see if there is anything in my course bibliography that might help. If there is, then I'll make sure that Cynwolfe and anyone else that is interested in it gets the info. Dalek (talk) 16:29, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Itzamna and Ixchel
Where does it said that Itzamna and Ixchel are similar to Orpheus and Eurydice, and Izanagi and Izanami? It doesn't said anything in Itzamna or Ixchel. Cococrash11 (talk) 22:36, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, there are a couple of sources cited in that paragraph, and a footnote may be intended to cover everything up to that point since the previous footnote. I find comparative mythology among cultures that had no contact with each other to be of dubious value myself. Unless one is a Jungian. If you can't verify it in the source cited, you're justified in deleting it. Cynwolfe (talk) 00:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Well I search it in the internet and it keep saying there are similarity but no clear information about why or how. Cococrash11 (talk) 07:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The story of Izanagi and Izanami is similar to the story of Orpheus and Eurydice, both concern a hero/God descending to the underworld to seek a lost love but returning without her. The Mayan legend of Itzamna has some similarities to Izanagi and Izanami in that they both concern sun and moon deities and death, but there is no underworld in the Mayan legend, and so connecting this latter story all the way to Orpheus and Eurydice is pretty tenuous.Pignut (talk) 18:01, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Note on Ovid
In Book 10 of his Metamorphoses, lines 83-85, Ovid writes:
 * ''Ille etiam Thracum populis fuit auctor amorem
 * ''In teneros transferre mares citraque iuventam
 * Aetatis breve ver et primos carpere flores.

This translates word-for-word (more or less) to:
 * He indeed Thracian people was author love
 * To tender-males to-transfer manhood this-side youth
 * Age brief spring and first to-pick flowers.

Translations:

Arthur Golding, 1567:
 * He also taught the Thracian folke a stewes of Males too make
 * And of the flowring pryme of boayes the pleasure for too take.

John Clarke, 1790:
 * He likewise was the adviser of the people of Thrace, to transfer their love upon tender boys; and, on this side of manhood, to enjoy the short spring, and first flower of their age.

Nathan Bailey, 1797:
 * He it was, that first taught the Thracians to transfer their love to tender boys, and to crop the first flowers, and short spring of life, within the verge of youth.

Henry T. Riley, 1851:
 * He also was the first adviser of the people of Thrace to transfer their affections to tender youths; and, on this side of manhood, to enjoy the short spring of life, and its early flowers.

Frank Justus Miller, 1916:
 * He set the example for the people of Thrace of giving his love to tender boys, and enjoying the springtime and first flower of their youth.

Rolfe Humphries, 1955:
 * His love was given
 * To young boys only, and he told the Thracians
 * That was the better way: enjoy that springtime,
 * Take those first flowers!

Horace Gregory, 1958:
 * Meanwhile he taught the men of Thrace the art
 * Of making love to boys and showed them that
 * Such love affairs renewed their early vigour
 * The innocence of youth, the flowers of Spring.

Craig A. Williams, 1999:
 * ...giving over their love to tender males, harvesting the brief springtime and its first flowers before maturity sets in.

A. S. Kline, 2000:
 * Indeed, he was the first of the Thracian people to transfer his love to young boys, and enjoy their brief springtime, and early flowering, this side of manhood.

Michael Simpson, 2003:
 * He even taught the men of Thrace to turn their desire to tender males and so to pluck the first blossoms boys offer in that brief springtime before they become young men.

Charles Martin, 2004:
 * Among the Thracians he originated
 * the practice of transferring the affections
 * to youthful males, plucking the first flower
 * in the brief springtime of their early manhood.

David Raeburn, 2004:
 * Orpheus even started the practice among the Thracian
 * tribes of turning for love to immature males and of
 * plucking
 * the flower of a boy's brief spring before he has come to
 * his manhood.

Stanley Lombardo, 2011:
 * It was Orpheus
 * Who began the custom among Thracian men
 * Of giving their love to tender boys, and enjoying
 * That brief springtime of blossoming youth.

Deborah Kamen, 2012:
 * He was the author for the people of Thrace of directing one's love to tender males on the side of youth, and seizing the springtime and first flowers of their age.

Russell Stone, 2012:
 * Indeed, he was the first author among the Thracians of transferring love to young boys and of plucking their first flowers and life's fleeting spring this side of youth.

To these add:
 * Yea, he it was who prompted Thracian folk
 * To cultivate a love for lithesome lads
 * And pluck the freshest blooms of fleeting spring
 * Ere fast approaching manhood interpose.

Danny Sprinkle (talk) 17:02, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Orpheus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20060617121711/http://homepage.mac.com:80/cparada/GML/Orpheus.html to http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Orpheus.html

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Bulgarian Travel Guides are not sources
Are not sources of any reliable kind. Please remove these sentences. Wikipedia is not a travel advertisment site. There are bizarre addditions in these sections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus#Death_of_Eurydice

"In Bulgarian tradition, Orpheus is said to have been born in the village of Gela close to Shiroka Luka in southern Bulgaria.[34]"

"A Bulgarian tradition says that he travelled there via the Dyavolsko Gurlo ("Devil's Throat") cave close to Trigrad in the Rhodope mountains of southern Bulgaria.[42]"

other irrelevant; "Modern day Bulgaria occupies roughly the same territory as ancient Thrace." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.198.83.40 (talk) 13:52, 21 May 2016 (UTC) Please stop adding tourist advertisment links tourist links again — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.198.83.40 (talk) 09:50, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Lame edit wars, redux
Re: Bulgarian Travel Guides are not sources: indeed they are not, and should be removed. I inadvertently reinstated some of these (and will shortly remove them).

Re: Orpheus being a Thracian figure, or his Greek vs Macedonian origins etc etc ad infinitum, please read the several discussions above on this and related matters: in particular this. Haploidavey (talk) 10:24, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

There's also far too much use of primary sources, throughout the article, and what appears to be undue weight placed on rather obscure and not-particularly-scholarly secondary sources, in service of pointing out who Orpheus "really" was, and where he "really" came from. Big, big sighs all round. This is an article on myth and cult - some folks seem determined to turn it into a geopolitical history. Tosh to all that. Haploidavey (talk) 10:58, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Source, how is this not yet in the article?
Is it not mainstream enough?

The Odrysian Kingdom of Thrace: Orpheus Unmasked (Oxford Monographs on Classical Archaeology) by Z. H. Archibald,1998,ISBN-10-0198150474,Preface:Stories about Orpheus were circulating in Greece from the sixth century BC if not earlier.Around the time of the Persian wars, it became fashionable to give the hero Thracian roots origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.92.148.210 (talk) 20:42, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

As a god of the Minyai on Boeotia
From Orpheus and Greek Religion; Maass (Orp.esp.pp.157 ff.) argues that Orpheus was in the very first place a god of the Minyai in Boiotia. His religion went to Thrace, where it first opposed the native Dionysiac religion and later allied itself with it. Against this course of events is the opinion of Gruppe that the Dionysiac religion itself came from the East Boiotia to Macedon and Thrace, districts colonised by Boeotian and Euboean settlers. Gruppe's evidence is a mass of instances of the same cults and same places in both parts. There was e.g. yet a third Leibehra in Boiotia, the cult of the muses is found on Helikon as well as on Olympos and Pangaion, etc., etc. (Gruppe, Gr. Mythl. pp.211 ff.)
 * Any relevance to "Orphic poems and rites" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MaryroseB54 (talk • contribs) 16:28, 15 June 2016 (UTC)


 * At first glance, it seems possible, but whether or not we use these sources and their opinions depends on whether or not they have substantial support, agreement or criticism within the mainstream of Orphic studies. If, on the other hand, these sources represent a fringe viewpoint, then probably not. Haploidavey (talk) 09:11, 17 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Maass seems to have been published at the turn of the 19th century, Guthrie (who cites him) in the 1930s. The Gruppes (father and son) are late in the 19th century. Age is not a disqualifier per se (if it was, I'd be banned from Wikipedia) but that really is rather old, and the fact that I've had to scratch around in obscure corners of Google Scholar and have come up with next to nothing useful for Maass doesn't bode well. Haploidavey (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

The Oprhic way of life & not eating beans.
What do they mean by beans? Nightshades were not yet discovered by Europeans.

The Oprhic way of life & "not eating beans."
What do they mean by beans? Nightshades were not yet discovered by Europeans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.233.191 (talk) 04:35, 25 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Nightshades have been in Europe before the first humans it seems unlikely that they did not find one of the many species until modern history. I also don't see why that has anything to do with beans. Beans are from the fabaceae. Kardoen (talk) 22:45, 4 September 2021 (UTC)