Talk:Orphism (religion)

ISBN
I added almost all the missing ISBNs. Should I do something more? Also, could I delete the note below?: Thanks! EVDiam (talk) 18:18, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Comments
Why is the article "Orphicism", a word I have never heard before, if "Orphism" is the more usual term? Maestlin 18:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Ophicism" is an older, now out-of-date name for Orphism. Thank you, to whoever changed the title of this article to Orphism (religion). Isokrates 04:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

dates
I can't see how this makes sense: Its historical roots have been traced back to the 6th century BC. Though distinctively Orphic views and practices are attested as early as Herodotus, Euripides, (5th century BC) and Plato, most of the sources to the teachings and practices of Orphism are late and ambiguous, and some scholars have claimed that Orphism is in fact a construction of a later date. However the recently discovered Derveni papyrus allows Orphic mythology to be dated back to the 4th century BC, and it is probably even older. Other inscriptions found in various parts of the Greek world testify to the early existence of a movement with the same core beliefs that were later associated with the name of Orphism.--2514 07:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The Derveni papyrus, though actually written in "probably the last quarter" of the fourth century BCE (Parker, "Early Orphism", p. 488), is a commentary on an Oprhic poem that scholars believe was written around 500BCE. (M.L. West in The Orphic Poems (Oxford, 1983) fixes circa 500 BCE as the date of the Orphic poem that is the subject of the Derveni papyrus commentary (West cited in Parker p. 509 n. 87); and Richard Janko puts it at "about 550-500BCE" ("Socrates the Freethinker" in A Companion to Socrates, eds. Ahbel-Rappe & Kamtekar 2006, p. 49).)  According to Kirk, Raven, & Schofield, the Derveni papyrus puts "the Orphic theogony . . . into the fifth century B.C., conceivably even into the sixth.  A few of the quoted verses [sc., quoted by the commentator who authored the papyrus] are identical or nearly so with bits of the later compilation, the so-called Orphic Rhapsodies. . . .  That does not alter the fact that much of the Rhapsodies is Hellenistic or Graeco-Roman, but it shows that the beginnings of beliefs that can be termed specifically Orphic, and were recorded in sacred verses, were much earlier than [the Hellenistic period]" (The Presocratic Philosophers (Cambridge, 1983, 2nd edition), pp. 30-31).  This all suggests that a distinctively Orphic religion probably existed as early as the sixth century B.C.Isokrates 19:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Gem
Hey I'm not the one who removed the image that was just restored. However if we were to vote or debate about it, I'd say remove it because not only is it of dubious authenticity, it is very singular and...rather atypical. Not representative of pre-Christian Orphism. Of all the images this article needs that's not one of them. It's currently just some dumb ass atypical image in an otherwise imageless article. Lisa the Sociopath 05:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * If we're keeping it in the article, it should be in some kind of context. If, say, a reliable source has argued that it's evidence of an Orphic crucifixion myth, we could note that in the main text. As the article stands, it's not clear what the reader is supposed to infer about Orphism from the image. EALacey 11:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool. I was probably being a bit hasty adding it back, but I figured it was a really interesting item, and it shouldn't just disappear with no more trace than a brief edit comment about "dubious authenticity". I've done a teeny bit of googling on the item, and it clearly predates the 20th century. I haven't figured out what "dubious authenticity" is supposed to mean yet. If it means "almost certainly a modern fake" then it doesn't belong here unless it generated notable debate about connections between Orphism and Christianity. If it merely means "its dating to Late Antiquity is unprovable" then there's a strong case for it remaining in the article in some respect, possibly to illustrate a section about cross-pollination between Orphism and Christianity. We could whip such a section together pretty quickly, I would guess, considering the well-known similarities between Dionysus (the "True Vine", the "Alpha and Omega", etc.) and Jesus. Fuzzypeg ☻ 02:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Enlighten me because I cannot find a crucifixion of Orpheus mentioned in ancient sources. Orpheus was torn apart by wild Maenads. Dionysos in the mysteries was torn apart by the Titans. I'm removing the singular dubious image pending new sources. Why not start an article about the object? Lisa the Sociopath 19:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Exactly! I knew there were a number of strong parallels between Dionysus and Jesus, but I didn't realise there was any hint that crucifixion might be one of those parallels. It wouldn't be that surprising to me though if the two dying and resurrected gods were syncretised in late antiquity. If you want to yank the image out for the mo that's fine. I was hoping EALacey could explain more about why its authenticity is dubious, but hey, he's probably as busy as I am. I might get round to reading up on the gem and discover a bit more. Cheers, Fuzzypeg ☻ 03:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you not read the comment above you? 69.254.76.77 (talk) 15:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry to be disappointing, but all I know about the amulet is what W. K. C. Guthrie says in Orpheus and Greek Religion (2nd edition, 1952). In his main text (apparently unchanged since the 1st edition) he dates it to the 3rd or 4th century AD and says it "has usually been supposed to be the work of some Gnostic sect exhibiting a syncretism of Orphic and Christian ideas" (p. 265). He then cites an alternative suggestion by Eisler that there was a myth of Dionysus' crucifixion independent of Christianity, but is unconvinced (he refers to Justin Martyr, Apology 1.55, who states that no pagan god was crucified). In a supplement to the second edition (p. 278), he writes: "In his review of this book in Gnomon, 1935, 476, Kern [author of the then standard collection of Orphic fragments, which was one of the sources Guthrie cited for the amulet] recants and expresses himself convinced by the expert opinion of J. Reil and R. Zahn (Ἄγγελος, Arch. f. neutest. Zeitgesch. und Kulturkunde, 1926, 62 ff.) that the ΟΡΦΕΟΣ ΒΑΚΚΙΚΟΣ gem is a forgery." I can't follow up these references as I don't read German. I also don't know whether any more recent scholarship has discussed the artifact in the context of Orphism. Unless some can be found, I'd favour leaving it off this page, although an Orpheus amulet article written by someone who'd read the German articles would be interesting. EALacey 10:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Fantastic. Yep, leave it off this page for now. I'd love to follow this up, but I don't know when I can. At least it'll be in the talk page archives now. I really appreciate that. Fuzzypeg ☻ 20:33, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

There's a 2009 article here with a completely new theory. It was mentioned in the discussion at FreeRatio. The theory itself seems quite intriguing, but more important is the fact that the article lists all the major literature on the Orpheos Bakkikos, pros and cons. It's noteworthy that the scholars, who initially doubted the stone's authenticity, based their arguments on totally pseudoscientific premises. The article mentions an archeologist named Mastrocinque, who refuted all of these arguments and also presented more stones with the same inscription. Later scholars, who argued against the stone's authenticity (like Spier) were only epigones of Zahn & Reil. Mastrocinque hasn't yet been refuted, and the majority of original publications actually points to the stone's authenticity, e.g. Hinz & Neumann, who draw the same connection to the so-called Iobakchoi (??) as the new article. 85.179.133.207 (talk) 16:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've skimmed over that pdf. I can't find the guy's name who wrote it anywhere so it might as well be No original research Also, while he mentions that Mastrocinque hasn't been refuted, I don't remember him giving examples but I could be wrong. Anyway, I'm not sure what anyone is trying to argue here. If it's authentic, then it seems to date around the second or third century. Big whoop. I don't understand how Christianity is argued to be the religion that stole EVERYTHING but had nothing stolen from it by someone else. But really, just think about it. Out of any ideas to be borrowed would the Christians really borrow being crucified? Would they really want God to be killed in the most disgraceful way? That's like saying if Jesus was shot with an arrow, someone said they stole the idea from some Greek god who got shot with an arrow. Crucifixition isn't something mythical that happens. It's just something very real that happened to a lot of people. I'm pretty sure if there's one historical fact that everyone agrees on about Jesus, it's the crucifxition. IMO, the stone looks like a forgery. The art that it was compared to was pretty bad. This looks too three dimensional to have been made back then. Also, where is the story about this person being crucified in the first place? That pdf points out that Justin Matyr even says that no other pagan god had been crucified.69.254.76.77 (talk) 16:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright, I looked into it more. Eisler was quoted as saying that Lycurgus was crucified by Dionysus himself. This is true but irrelevant to the stone. Lycurgus was an enemy of Dionysus anyway. Also, there were so many various ways of being crucified, that saying someone was crucified doesn't instantly mean a T shape. IMO, Dionysus did it after a battle so I'd imagine it would be a straight pole. Pentheus was mentioned next but his page says "Dionysus then lured Pentheus out to spy on the bacchic rites. The daughters of Cadmus saw him in a tree and thought him to be a wild animal. Pentheus was pulled down and torn limb from limb by them (sparagmos), causing them to be exiled from Thebes." Anyway that's the best you're going to get. Nothing else is spoken of in any written sources and the contrary is given, again, by Justin Martyr. 69.254.76.77 (talk) 11:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, and here's a quote from Freke. I can't verify (make that I don't feel like it) that it came from Secular Web's discussion board, because I'm not going in there. You can verify it yourself if you want. If it's not there, let me know and I'll recant myself. "Our thesis certainly doesn't rest on [the amulet] in any way. (It is after all from the 3rd century CE if the dating is right, which we have not challenged)." *sigh* This reminds me of Gilbert Gottfried on the Bob Saget Roast that came on last night. He kept saying how Bob Saget was accused of having "...raped a girl in the 90's." He kept saying it over and over but he didn't believe the accusations. The joke was that he kept repeating the idea, even that it was untrue so that people would have the idea in their heads that he really did commit rape. By Freke putting that rock on the cover of his book, that he admits was created long after Jesus was crucified, he did the same thing. 69.254.76.77 (talk) 16:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Coming at this a few years late, but shouldn't all this be included in the article? Whether Orphism inspired Christianity or Christianity inspired late Orphism, both would be interesting information and an example of how religions borrowed from each other in the first few centuries AD. The response to an image of a crucified Orpheus would only be "so what it postdates Christ, leave it out" if the editor has something to prove. 2600:1002:B012:4D2:3EAE:1DC6:4F5B:304C (talk) 22:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Recently deleted from references

 * Antonio Virgili Culti misterici ed orientali a Pompei (Rome: Gangemi) 2008. This was deleted as "spam". Perhaps this was an error. Or a joke. --Wetman (talk) 13:05, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a joke. Multiple IP addresses (79.3.187.138, 82.51.81.254, 82.51.131.93, 82.51.174.107, 82.55.142.98, 82.55.146.87, 82.55.149.203, 89.97.190.82) have been editing exclusively to add references to Antonio Virgili's works to numerous articles: Demographic transition, Dionysian Mysteries, Dionysus, Eleusinian Mysteries, Heraldry, Jewish Emancipation, Kingdom of Italy (Napoleonic), Knights Hospitaller‎, Mother goddess, Mystery cult‎, Myth and ritual, Mythology‎, Øresund, Orgy‎, Orphism (religion), Polytheism, Religion in ancient Greece, Religion in ancient Rome, Religious symbolism, Sociology of religion, Villa of the Mysteries, and possibly more that have escaped my notice. It's possible that Antonio Virgili's works really ought to be recommended as further reading on all these topics, but if so that decision should be made on a case-by-case basis, and not by someone whose aim is clearly promotional. EALacey (talk) 16:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely right. There was more to this than met my eye. I don't suppose anyone has looked at the book in question.... --Wetman (talk) 13:26, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

quotations and translations
An editor deleted footnotes identifying the source of quotations because they referred to the original Greek tablets, and did not identify the source of the translation. Although certainly the source of the English translation has to be noted, deleting the tablets on which the translations are based only compounds the problem, because it makes it harder for an editor to find the missing info. I have a copy of Graf and Johnston's Ritual Texts for the Afterlife that I've been meaning to dig into, and will try to provide the needed citations. In the meantime, I think we all know that the Orphic tablets were written in Greek, but that we work in English and don't provide untranslated Greek on Wikipedia. So please leave the identification of the source documents in place. I've added (unconventionally, I admit) a "citation needed" within the two relevant footnotes. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Orphic tablets and the Luperci
In G. Colli's work La sapienza greca Milano 1977 I found two lamellae from Thurii that read:

1. F 32 f K

...theos egenoy ex anthroopoy, eriphos es gala epetes. you have become god from man, lamb you fell into milk.

2. F 32 c K

...eriphos es gala epeton. lamb you fell into milk.

Now this is parallel to the final ritual of the Lupercalia in which the leaders of the two teams, young noblemen of the Fabii and Quinctii gentes, had their forehead passed upon with a bloody knife and then cleaned with a woolen flock wet in milk. Mannhardt ''Mythol. Forschungen'' pp. 74-75 and 99.Aldrasto11 (talk) 03:50, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

challenge
I'd like to ask the people who are so exercised over Thracian v. Greek v. "Hellenistic" exactly what we gain if we established beyond any doubt the precise time and place that "Orphism" (a modern misnomer) began. What would this tell us about the belief system(s) and its influences on the cultures in which it existed? This is a very unsophisticated and uninteresting line of inquiry, and I wonder whether those who spend time on it couldn't produce something more profitable by reading the vast amount of material available on this complex of beliefs and giving us the benefit of summarizing it in the article (inadequate article, as has been pointed out above). It's like saying if we know the scientific etymology of the theonym Apollo, well then, our work is done, and we know all we need to know about why Apollo was such an important deity in Greek and Roman religion and in the mythological tradition of Western Europe. Sorry, just my rant for a snowed-in day before the coffee kicked in. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:49, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, it's a far more lucid and less grumpy rant than the one I'd prepared after no less than three coffees. Its a serious point. I'm rather losing patience with cleaning up the fallout of this insistent Thracian non-issue. The lead para now looks like it's been hit by citation-grapeshot. No need for it. Haploidavey (talk) 15:01, 13 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Further to this: the lede or introductory section of any article should summarise the article content. If the Thracian business were relevant to an understanding of the topic, it would be addressed in the article itself; and that's where any citations would belong. Haploidavey (talk) 15:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

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A separate article on Orphic literature
The following discussion was copied from User talk:Michael Aurel:
 * [To user :] To get your opinion on this, would you agree that an article on Orphic literature would be a good idea? I think it represents a sufficiently distinct topic from Orphism (religion) to justify a separate article, and I am dissatisfied with the current section at our page there, particularly because the word "religion" in brackets in the title seems to imply the notion that the theogonies are the "texts of the 'Orphic religion'", or something to this effect (a largely outdated view), though moving the page to just "Orphism" might also solve this issue? – Michael Aurel (talk) 02:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Indeed, a separate article on Orphic literature would be warranted, if for no other reason than to distinguish that topic from "Orphism" as a religion or whatever else it might be or have been. As for the disambiguator "religion", I agree it is misleading, but I can't think of a better one. So I would be in favor of moving it to just "Orphism", but given Orphism (art), we would have to have a convincing argument that this Orphism is the primary topic first. Otherwise I think we may be stuck we Orphism (religion). Paul August &#9742; 14:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I would assume that Orphism constitutes the primary topic, though I can't claim to know a whole lot about modern art, and those who do might disagree, so accepting the current title is probably the easiest solution. I'm glad you think a page on Orphic literature is a good idea; it will be a big project, but it will hopefully fill a noticeable gap in our coverage here. – Michael Aurel (talk) 23:02, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

End of copied text (with ping to ).

Paul August &#9742; 14:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I think a page on Orphic literature makes sense. West's book, The Orphic poems, certainly suggests there's more than enough material for a standalone article, especially factoring in other literature such as the Orphic Argonautica and the Derveni papyrus.
 * I'd also support a renaming of this page in addition to a separate literature page, I think the total page traffic difference alone suggests this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, and it seems somewhat "common sense" to me that the term "Orphism" should primarily refer to the movement named after Orpheus that was from the same time period as Orpheus. Perhaps if there are strong feelings otherwise we could rename both pages, to Orphism (ancient) and Orphism (modern)? This would also get around the issue of taking a stand on what exactly Orphism *is.* &#32;- car chasm (talk) 04:41, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Good to hear that there is support for a page on Orphic literature; in addition to West's book, more recent treatments of the subject by Bernabé, Brisson, Meisner, and others give strong grounds for an article, and there would be quite a bit to cover. With regards to this page, I think "Orphism" is probably the ideal if there were to be a consensus for that, as (to quote one review) "Orphic studies is a heated battleground in which scholars neither agree on what Orphism is nor on whether it is a valid category at all"; as you say, the |Orphism_(art) pageviews are certainly compelling, and this Orphism would also have greater long-term significance than the art movement. "Orphism (ancient)" might also be a possibility, though (it is an improvement over the current title at least). – Michael Aurel (talk) 14:41, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've done a bit of refactoring of this article so that it's easier to expand the literature material and possibly WP:SPINOUT an article on Orphic literature from this one once enough content on literature has been added that it dominates the rest of the article, please let me know if you have any concerns with that approach! &#32;- car chasm (talk) 00:52, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Those changes all look good. To be honest, this article probably needs to be rewritten, either by an expert in the subject (if we have any), or an otherwise brave soul; there are some immediate issues which wouldn't be too difficult to address, but questions as to what content should be included (and what would be better at Orphic literature or Orpheus), how to structure the article, and how much weight should be given to different scholarly viewpoints are all broader problems which would probably benefit from discussion amongst a group of editors. – Michael Aurel (talk) 01:26, 11 August 2023 (UTC)