Talk:Osceola and Renegade/Archive 1

Jumping Off Renegade
I've been to several home games against UF and never saw Osceola dismount. It is very much against the character. Is there any evidence of this? Did it used to happen? Ayzmo (talk) 20:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Having been to many FSU home games over the years, I have seen him dismount on several occasions. Twice he gave the spear to retiring coaches, who then planted it (Mickey Andrews in 2008, and Bobby Bowden in 2009.) There have also been games where Osceola gets off and plants the spear. This probably has something to do with the horse portraying Renegade; they can be very nervous. Most of the time, The spear is planted from on top of the horse, sometimes as the horse is rearing up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.117.11.111 (talk) 12:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I have been attending and watching FSU football games since 1984 when I began attending the FSU College of Law. My addition of the trivia that Osceola dismounts for the UF game came from a discussion with Allen Durham, the current head of the Oscola/Renegade program, at an event put on by the FSU Alumni Association at the Ah-Tah-Thi-Ki Seminole Indian Museum in February 2013. At that event Durham described the process for selecting Osceola:  He personally recruits high-school rodeo atheletes who are required to write a paper after reading Lucia St. Clair Robson's, Light a Distant Fire, a historical fiction novel about Osceola.  I met with him after his talk, and in response to my question as to why Osceola dismounts and throws the spear into the turf on foot, he stated that he does so out of respect for an old traditional opponent.  I will try to find a published source to verify that along with his explanation of the selection process.  I have a source for the fact that the program's creator, Bill Durham, has retired and turned the reins (pun intended) over to his son Allen who is a former "Osceola" and will update that soon. Modern Ha Sofer (talk) 4:40, 27 February 2013 (UTC)


 * It's interesting info and can be added if there's a source. And we should definitely include Allen Durham if he's taken over for his father, as at the time the current sources were published it was still Bill Durham.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:59, 27 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I have the cite for the changeover to Allen Durham...it's http://www.fsu.edu/~fstime/FS-Times/volume8/nov02web/11nov02.html, but much to my embarrassment, I haven't learned how to do footnotes yet. (That's what I need to learn "soon" so I can do the update.) I also have a citation that refers to Allen Durham as the "administrator" of the Renegade Team and has an interesting (to me anyway) story about the horse and rider's preparation for the game: http://www.fsunews.com/article/20111110/FSVIEW/111109030/Osceola-making.  If I can't find a source for the selection process and dismounting for the Florida game I may email Durham and ask him if he knows of a published one. Also, I saw you reworded my re-edit but kept the intent of the change so that's fine.  I did fix the reference to the stadium...it's official name is, in fact, "Bobby Bowden Field at Doak Campbell Stadium" as stated in the Wikipedia article Bobby Bowden Field at Doak Campbell Stadium. ––Modern Ha Sofer (talk) 03:22, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That's good info, thanks. Citing is more complicated than it needs to be, unfortunately, but I can add them and walk you through it tomorrow. I tried to maintain as much of your wording as possible in the new section; the reason I separated it is that proper intros should summarize the rest of the article, and not include anything that doesn't appear in the article body. As for Doak, I still think that's a better way to put it, as its far more common than the overlong official name, though I'm certainly not married to it. Cúchullain t/ c  03:31, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with you; although official, the whole name is kind of wordy. I changed it to its more colloquial reference. (No one calls it "Doak Stadium" though, it's always "Doak Campbell Stadium.")  Which begs the question: who would name their kid Doak anyway?  Here's some more trivia for you:  Bobby Bowden didn't really want them to name the field after him but finally yielded to pressure.  There was a big ceremony before the 2004 UF v FSU game and, sure enough, FSU lost the game. —Modern Ha Sofer (talk) 11:29, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I meant "Doak Campbell Stadium". Honestly, the article should just be moved back to that, and explain the official name in the text. But I guess that's another matter.
 * I added the Florida State News article about Bill Durham passing the "reins" on to his son. Information on how to add inline citations can be found at WP:Inline citation; basically you just add a the following tags to the cite: after, and make sure there's a tag in the proper section, and it will display properly. There are also templates to ensure the citations such as Template:Cite news and Template:Cite book to ensure the cites are formatted properly, but they're quite confusing to newbies.
 * Now that the article is fleshed out a bit, I'll be rewriting the intro to better summarize the contents per WP:LEAD. I've worked the material you added about the performance into the "Depiction" section; we can work in your other material there once we have sources.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:44, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless you know of some authority to the contrary, Osceola and Renegade do not appear at sporting events other than football. Also, they do not "kick-off" the game, they appear prior to the kick-off.  I would argue that, as it relates to (American) football, "kick-off" is a term of art referring to the ball being kicked by the placekicker.  Finally, isn't saying they ride "across the field" with a burning spear misleading, even in the intro?  Clearly, based on the article itself, Osceola throws the burning spear into the turf at midfield.  (FYI, a member of the Renegade teams retrieves it and carries it off the field.)  Thanks for doing the citation! — Modern Ha Sofer (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * You're quite right about athletics - I thought he appeared at other events, but one of the sources indicates he's only used for football (and related things like Homecoming). As for the wording, I was trying to phrase it so the wording wasn't almost exactly what appears in the article - I was using "kicks off" in the sense of "introduces" or "gets it started", though I can see how it's possibly confusing. I'll take another stab at it.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:34, 1 March 2013
 * Respectfully, I think your last edit of the intro is a good example of the old Southern saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The new version doesn't have the impact of your prior one and, at the risk of sounding too literal, you plant trees, you hurl spears. Saying Osceola "plants" the spear doesn't have the impact of saying he hurls it.  I'm not going to change your wording but I would urge you to change it back to "prior to kick-off and hurling a burning spear into the ground."Modern Ha Sofer (talk) 05:44, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it was broke, as the wording was almost exactly the same as what appears in the article body, which is bad style. And if anything, "planting" the spear is more evocative and accurate; he doesn't just throw the spear at the ground, he plants it so it stands up. "Planting" is also how the mascot himself describes it here. The previous wording also didn't make it clear why this whole performance is significant: Osceola doesn't just "represent" FSU in football, this is actually part of the lead-in to the game.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hoist on my own petard. I'm the one that cited the article that uses the term "planting" in the first place.  By the way, this was Drake Anderson's last year as Osceola.  The new Osceola--who competed in high school rodeos in Texas--was introduced at the event at the Seminole Indian Museum I mentioned above; as soon as I see an official announcement with his name (which I don't recall now) I'll update the page.  Hopefully by that time I'll actually figure out references!Modern Ha Sofer (talk) 21:29, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Mascot controversy issue
In addition to the other work, I've also added some material about the Native American mascot controversy as it relates to Osceola. There's so much inaccurate material going around about this that it really needs to be as clear and neutral as possible, without putting too much emphasis on either the extremely critical perspective of the detractors or the overly rosy perspective of the school and its students. I think the current version hits the key points, though other input is welcome.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:37, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I placed a link to the Native American mascot controversy section, but a proper balance to both articles would be to move much of the discussion from that article to this. I do not think it is neutral to state that there was a brief controversy in 2005 with the NCAA which was quickly resolved; there is more to it than that. However, I can find no sources for any view that FSU nor any of the other schools granted a waiver by the NCAA are behaving badly; even the most ardent advocate for eliminating all Indian mascots recognizes the right of sovereign tribes to authorize the use of their names, images and symbols.FriendlyFred (talk) 00:35, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * We could probably add some more on the mascot controversy and make it its own subsection. I don't know how much more really needs to be there, though. I don't think it will be beneficial to move in a ton of material from Native American mascot controversy, since that article deals also with FSU's use of the "Seminoles" name and imagery, not just the Osceola mascot. I've moved the "see also" tag up to the top of the section so it doesn't break the flow and formatting (there already was a link to that article, by the way, you put the tag below most of the discussion of the controversy).--Cúchullain t/ c 00:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I did not see the existing link. Basically I think that the section in the main controversy article makes it appear that FSU is a more important part of the controversy than it really is (nothing compared to Chief Illiniwek or the Washington Redskins). A subsection here covering the main points and issues, using whatever is needed from the main article, sounds good. I can then edit the main article as needed.FriendlyFred (talk) 04:38, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I have gone ahead and edited Native_American_mascot_controversy, paring it down to the essentials. I do not think that WP should be a repository of all of the news, when there is a "hot topic" this becomes unmanageable.FriendlyFred (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

"Mascot" vs. "symbol"
While FSU prefers to call Osceola and Renegade "symbols" rather than mascots, all the secondary sources call them "mascot". This is done in King & Springwood, Rossier, the USA Today article, and the New York Times article; others are readily available as well. As such, the article needs to follow the secondary sources. The fact that FSU calls them "symbols" is already discussed in the article body.--Cúchullain t/ c 17:37, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, see above.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 16:53, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Recent edits
Here I made a partial revert/alteration of these recent edits. The edit summaries expressed concern about the "unquantifiable 'some'" in the claim that "some leaders in the Seminole Tribe of Florida" support the Osceola mascot, which is probably a fair point, but then they add the unsupported claim that only a "vocal minority" of Florida and Oklahoma Seminole oppose the mascot. That's simply not an accurate representation of either the Rosier book or the USA Today article. In fact I doubt it's even close to true in the case of the Oklahoma Seminole. I've restored the more accurate wording that "the matter remains controversial for other Florida Seminoles, as well as members of the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma".--Cúchullain t/ c 05:06, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Here is the basis for the "minority" (vocal or otherwise) assertion. The USA Today article that you use for support quotes David Narcomey, a member of the ruling authority of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma. After Narcomey's comments (and unauthorized) complaints to the NCAA, the ruling authority of the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma responded 'specifically' to the issue, recording a vote 18-2 in favor of the FSU use of the name/image. Narcomey was one of the two "no" votes. With 90% in favor, the 10% opposition is more accurately described as a "minority", rather than "some". The Principal Chief of the Seminole Nation was among the supporters. I believe that the tribal council and Principal Chief of the Seminole Tribe of Florida are unanimous in their support. I am not aware of any "leaders" within the Florida Tribe who oppose the use. Unless you can identify specific (elected) "leaders" in the Seminole Tribe of Florida, it would be inappropriate to say "some leaders" are opposed. As it stands, anything other than "minority" gives UNDUE weight to the opposition, which is quite small indeed. The "some do, some don't" phrasing does not convey that same sense of proportion... which I think reflects your view that (the degree of support) isn't "even close to true in the case of the Oklahoma Seminole". If you can point to a more recent and substantially less lopsided vote (on point and from the ruling body of the Seminole Nation) than the one I have cited, then I will support your language. If you cannot, you should support my language. The same UNDUE weight argument holds for your "remains controversial" edit. Regarding the NCAA ruling: I could have lifted a word straight from the article, and said that the NCAA "respects" the agreement between FSU and the Seminoles. I thought I was being more even-handed using the word "accepts". I, naturally, assume good faith. So I won't edit anything in this article until you have had time to consider and respond. Gulbenk (talk) 06:53, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, obviously you can't alter material that's attributed to specific sources without changing the sources, otherwise you make it appear the sources say something they don't.
 * On the issue of "some leaders" supporting the mascot, as I say, you may have a point. So far as I've seen the support comes mostly from Chief Billie, and Max Osceola has also voiced support, hence the "some". The article never said "some leaders" were in opposition, although as Rosier notes the tribe did sign a statement condemning Indian mascots in general before the state made a political issue out of it. In addition to this, Rosier makes it clear that there are Florida Seminole who oppose FSU's use. He also notes that there is a political undercurrent to tribal leaders' support, as they have many business dealings in the state that require a good relationship with the government.
 * Your source is a start, however, it doesn't establish anything about "vocal minorities" in either the Florida or Oklahoma tribes. What it says is that the Oklahoma Seminole tribal council considered a measure opposing Indian mascots and nicknames in general but voted it down, and Chief Ken Chambers said he personally doesn't have a problem with FSU's use. To my knowledge the tribal leadership has made no more recent statement one way or the other. And of course this doesn't speak to the feelings of the actual members of either tribe, which is a distinction that needs to be made considering how political the issue this has become. It's probably worth adding a sentence about the Oklahoma Seminole, but it needs to be accurate and sourced.
 * As to the NCAA, as I said the issue is that it's just unclear wording for what's already clearly state in the article body: that the NCAA gave FSU an exemption to the typical policy opposing Indian names and mascots.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:11, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
 * And here it's reported that the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma passed a resolution condemning Indian mascots on October 26, 2013. I'm looking for a source directly referring to this resolution at which point I'll add both sources to the article.--Cúchullain t/ c 20:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)