Talk:Otis Redding/Archive 7

Edit history note

 * At 19:01, 1 August 2011‎ this page started as a copy of an earlier page which is now at Otis Redding/version 1. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:17, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Self-assessment at B class
I have removed GreatOrangePumpkin's self assessment of this article as B class. There is no evidence that a B class review has been performed and the article is clearly not at that standard yet. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:56, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I endorse the C-class assessment. Binksternet (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please read Template:Grading scheme carefully. Every aspect was met. Everyone can assess articles, as long as they belong to a very active Wikiproject, such as WP:VG or WP:MILHIST. Thanks.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 17:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Here you can read the B criteria:


 * 1) The article is suitably referenced, with inline citations where necessary. It has reliable sources, and any important or controversial material which is likely to be challenged is cited. The use of either tags or citation templates such as cite web is not required.✅
 * 2) The article reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain obvious omissions or inaccuracies. It contains a large proportion of the material necessary for an A-Class article, although some sections may need expansion, and some less important topics may be missing.✅
 * 3) The article has a defined structure. Content should be organized into groups of related material, including a lead section and all the sections that can reasonably be included in an article of its kind.✅
 * 4) The article is reasonably well-written. The prose contains no major grammatical errors and flows sensibly, but it certainly need not be "brilliant". The Manual of Style need not be followed rigorously.✅
 * 5) The article contains supporting materials where appropriate. Illustrations are encouraged, though not required. Diagrams and an infobox etc. should be included where they are relevant and useful to the content.✅
 * 6) The article presents its content in an appropriately understandable way. It is written with as broad an audience in mind as possible. Although Wikipedia is more than just a general encyclopedia, the article should not assume unnecessary technical background and technical terms should be explained or avoided where possible.✅ — Preceding unsigned comment added by GreatOrangePumpkin (talk • contribs)


 * I do not think that this article is reasonably well-written, which is why I gave it a C-class rating. As you say, anybody is able to assess an article, and Jezhotwells gave it a C-class today. Then you reverted him, and I reverted you after performing my own assessment, and I posted my comment here. You reverted me, so now we are in the middle of edit warring over the rating, with you doing the warring. Binksternet (talk) 17:37, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You need to give examples of why you believe it does not meet the B criteria instead of reverting the reverting of the assessment. BTW, The article was assessed to B status in 2007: . So you need to convience me it does not meet the B criteria. Regards.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 17:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Because it is not reasonnably well writtem, indeed that is why it failed GA. Furthermore, you don't assess your own work. For any grading system to have any worth it must be carried out by third parties.  Awarding yourself grades is like sticking un-earned gold stars on your homework book and is basically cheating. Jezhotwells (talk) 21:41, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * You just need to give examples. Is it really so hard? And B-status articles can also fail on GAN, this is not a well-conceived commentar. None of the three Wikiprojects have an assessing department; even on the biggest one it says everyone can assess an article, see WikiProject Biography/Assessment, but if someone disagrees, he should take it to talk page, what I did just recently: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Biography. Regards. ♫GoP♫ T C N 21:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The examples you require are in the GAN review, obviously your grasp of English is very poor and you are incapable of understanding them. Why you think you are capable of assessing or reviewing articles on the English Wikipedia beggars belief. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:28, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, stop assessing to C-class, as long as you can GIVE examples. Otherwise this is NOT a re-assessment. Before you attack someone, you better review your own prose, Mr. Pitiful. Thanks.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 11:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

So, to conclude: nine days later, it has had a copyedit and been adjudged by a hitherto uninvolved editor as a B class article. (Thanks Zoë). FWIW, I concur with that judgement. Meanwhile there are suggestions below for improvement, including the suggestion that there are important sources entirely missing. Go to it, GOP. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Misleading chronology
The group had begun to fly on Redding's Beechcraft H18 to gigs. They flew to Nashville, and on December 9, 1967 appeared on the nationally-syndicated Upbeat television show produced in Cleveland. They played three concerts in two nights at a small club called Leo's Casino.[44][45][37] On the next day they played at the "Factory" nightclub near the University of Wisconsin after the opening act "The Grim Reapers", precursor of Cheap Trick.[46][44]

After a phone call with his wife and children, Redding's next stop was in Madison, Wisconsin. The weather was poor, with heavy rain and fog, and he had been warned to postpone the flight.[47] Four miles from their destination at Truax Field, Fraser radioed for permission to land. Shortly thereafter, the plane crashed into Lake Monona.

As written it makes it seems like the concert at the "Factory" in Madison WI *preceeded* the flight, but this can't be because the flight was destined for Madison Wisconsin. The flight was obviously from Cleveland to Madison but the article (as written) gives the erroneous impression that the concert at the Factory in Madison WI preceeded the flight TO Madison WI which is obviously nonsensical! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.102.249.9 (talk) 03:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Good point IP. Another reason why this article needs serious work before it could be classified as B class. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:27, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * At least an anonymous gives us an example. Done.-- ♫GoP♫ T C N 11:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Copy Edit request
I've made a request at WikiProject_Guild_of_Copy_Editors/Requests for this article to be copy edited, in the hope that this solves the current rating war. --Tagishsimon (talk) 16:24, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've signed up to work on this for you. I'll list some issues I find here, as I find them. ❇  Zoë Alkaia   ❇  7:31 pm, Today (UTC−5)
 * The first is with this sentence: "His father had contracted tuberculosis and was often in the hospital, leaving his mother to provide the primary financial support for the family." This is followed by what Otis did with no mention of what his mother did to make money.
 * It's not absolutely necessary to declare the nature of her work. The pertinent fact is that she, not her husband, was the breadwinner. It is of course desirable to know. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I've been advised by a former professor/mentor to always do my best to avoid inserting thoughts into my writing that I don't expand upon. "Don't leave your readers with questions." This was for essays, though; so perhaps irrelevant here. We should definitely add it if it's available, however. ❇  Zoë Alkaia   ❇  02:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "Jenkins left the band to become the featured artist with The Pinetoppers." When?
 * Good question. I don't know the answer, but I will go to library in January and try to find a book which mentions the date
 * (borrowed the book from library) That was somewhere in the early 1960s. I think 1962, or 1961. That was shortly before Redding first performed "These Arms of Mine" on a session.-- ♫GoP♫ T <sup style="color:red;">C <sub style="color:red;">N 22:02, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * "He was later hired as the new A&R head, replacing Steve Cropper, as the crew thought he would act superior." What is meant by "act superior"?
 * He did his job like he would own their business
 * "Redding thought it was the best song he ever wrote and would top the charts." How did it eventually do? I see it at the end of the section.
 * Based on the contents, I'm thinking the "Legacy" section would be more appropriately titled "Vocal (or Musical) style and legacy" or something like that. It talks about a lot more than his legacy.
 * If I find more information about his singing style, like his vocal register or vocal range, then I would do that
 * In that same section, the paragraph that starts with "Another characteristic was his raw voice" has a lot of quotes from various people several are without citations. Are these all included in the first citation that appears in the paragraph?
 * Yes, except the Allmusic quote. Done
 * One of the quotes is, "Redding's singing calls to mind a fervent black preacher. Especially in up-tempo numbers, his singing is more than impassioned speech but less than singing with precise pitch." According to WP:MOSQUOTE, we should avoid linking words in quotes when possible. It comes down to how necessary is it to have a link for "pitch" available for our readers. Maybe something to leave for potential discussion at GAC or FAC. Personally, I think it's acceptable, but I did want to point it out.
 * Delinked
 * I'm done. ❇  Zoë Alkaia   ❇  03:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your copyedits and comments.-- ♫GoP♫ <sub style="color:red;">T <sup style="color:red;">C <sub style="color:red;">N 15:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll add one more:
 * "Johnny Jenkins did not come, fearing his reaction would be worse than Zelma Redding's". We don't know what Zelma's reaction was. Actually, Zelma was last seen in the article getting hitched to Otis, but it's not clear if she was with him when he moved to LA with his sister Deborah. The article could do with just slightly more on his family life, I think. --Tagishsimon (talk) 04:27, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The information is available in Sweet Soul Music. Her emotions are described very precisely. From books I read, there was not many information about his family life; maybe because he kept his family life private. What I know is eg that he built a swimming pool, which became the biggest in Macon, and invited many people to a relatively big party. I know that, after his death, his sister still owns a boutique somewhere in Macon, and that his brothers formed a group called "The Reddings". But I'll try to find information about this. Thanks for your copyedits and comment. ♫GoP♫ <sub style="color:red;">T <sup style="color:red;">C <sub style="color:red;">N  15:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

How serious?
So I have a monumental interest in early rock and roll, soul, blues, and whatnot and consider Otis Redding on the god tier of musicians. I wrote Roy Orbison's article to meet FA criteria but have not attempted to get it to GA status for my own reasons. I've seen your requests on Malleus' page for copy edits and I declined, now I can't remember why, but probably because I got the impression that you're not serious about the article.

Anyone adding good sourced information to any article, or working to improve it, has my blessing and attaboy to go through with it. Pursuing GA or FA will challenge you--it's supposed to--by forcing you to improve your research and writing. So I'm asking how serious you are about the article. You have over 350 edits to the article, but you're using substandard sources like Songfacts.com. You seem to have some good print sources, but they're GoogleBooks linked, making me think you took what you could from GoogleBooks without reading the paper books in their entirety. Some really nutty sources that would never pass WP:RS: wat? and some newspaper sources that superficially cover topics like race and music when entire chapters and books cover this.

If you are GA serious, get the physical books in front of you at least for as long as you can read them all and make sure you've not missed anything very important that GoogleBooks often likes to keep you from seeing. For a musician as important as Redding, obviously there's a lot of information written about him and if you intend to do him justice in this article, you really should go all the way and read everything you can about Redding, Stax, and early soul music. For your first GA or FA, you should anticipate spending months on the article, not only reading books and working on prose, but taking time away and letting things sit while you think and forget about them. Yes, that sentence doesn't make much sense, but it does after you write a few FAs.

My time is limited and I get distracted frequently, but as I said, I love Redding and he deserves a top notch article. If you are willing to do the work for months and go to libraries and find books and keep reading and working on this, I will do what I can to assist you. It all depends on how far you're willing to go and how much time and effort you are willing to expend on this.

Let me know. --Moni3 (talk) 22:14, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Prose has always been a problem with this article, mentioned in every objective review. I think one person has to take the article under wing and rewrite it. Other issues have been poor sourcing such as not using enough books. How about Zelda Redding's The Definitive Otis Redding and Geoff Brown's Otis Redding: Try a Little Tenderness? They are not represented. Nor is Joel Selvin's San Francisco, the musical history tour, which discusses the writing of the song "Dock of the Bay" along with the San Francisco concerts that Redding gave. The article's section about "Dock of the Bay" starts late in 1967 with polyps then jumps backwards to describe the songwriting, rather than being structured chronologically, starting with Redding playing six nights in August 1967 in San Francisco at a nightclub called Basin Street West (401 Broadway, now a bar), some groupies discovering Redding's lodging, Redding moving to a rented houseboat in Sausalito for privacy, Redding writing the song, then polyp surgery, recording dates, etc.
 * To emphasize: the single best thing for this article will be to have someone skilled in prose take it over. Binksternet (talk) 00:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hang on, do we want to do that before the extra books etc. are read and added in? Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your responses. This is incorrect that I only used book excerpts from Gbooks; I additionally borrowed two books from libraries; Icons of R&B and Soul: An Encyclopedia of the Artists Who Revolutionized Rhythm, Volume 1 and Sweet Soul Music: Rhythm and Blues and the Southern Dream of Freedom. I don't know Zelma Redding's The Definite Otis Redding, but if it exists, I believe, it is rather a biography than an educational book. I tried to search it on Amazon, but they suggest zelda bedding rather than "Zelma Redding" =). Sweet Soul Music already covers the most important things in soul music; this article would be half as large as it stands now if I would not borrow it. Icons of R&B was also very helpful, but it is in some places unclear. As for Geoff Brown's Otis Redding: Try a Little Tenderness, a used version will cost less than 5, so it won't be a problem. Joel Selvin's San Francisco, the musical history tour, not sure if it contains useful information (how do you know it discusses what you said, do you own this book?). But thanks again for your help. Regards. ♫GoP♫ <sub style="color:red;">T <sup style="color:red;">C <sub style="color:red;">N  14:18, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * A biography would be good to get the missing early life and personal information. ❇  Zoë Alkaia   ❇  15:13, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * My original intention in posting this here was to focus on the sourcing in the article before prose copy edits. Even if the prose reads brilliantly, the article will not pass GA or FAC with the current state of sourcing. For a quick and dirty guide to what this article needs in what order:
 * Improve the sourcing: replace the substandard sources with better ones, add appropriate book-length sources (biographies, books about music, the recording industry, race, etc.) and get paper books to ensure no information has been missed from GoogleBooks.
 * Begin a series of many copy edits for prose, clarity, style, and formatting.
 * Have discussions about images.
 * Ask for a peer review.
 * Nominate for GA. --Moni3 (talk) 14:28, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Quote from S. Huckaby
I edited the second paragraph uner the heading "Apollo Theater and Otis Blue" to include Huckaby's description of the "big old raggedy" hotel in place of the previous wording ("rundown"), since I don't know of any other source of information about the condition of the hotel in 1963. I did not also insert a citation of the source, because the page numbers in my edition do not seem to match the pages numbers already cited elsewhere in this paragraph of the article. My source is Peter Guralnick, Sweet Soul Music, Back Bay (paperback edition), 1999, p. 143. The other citations of this souce in this paragraph refer to pages 175–179, which seem to correspond to pages 142–145 in my edition. Can anyone reconcile the difference in page numbers?

Also, I altered the spelling of Simms's name according to Guralnick, p. 145 (my edition). My impression is that Guralnick is a careful researcher and trustworthy in such details.

Jwicklatz (talk) 00:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Mistaken reference
In the Monterey Pop paragraph is written: "I got to go, y'all, I don't wanna go", said Redding and left the stage of his last major concert.[35] I read the reference and the author of the book confuses the performance in the "Live in Europe" album with the Monterey Pop one. In the Monterey Pop performance of "Try a little tenderness" there is no mention of miniskirt and no "I got to go, y'all, I don't wanna go" but these are in the Live in Europe performance of the song. Listening to both recordings confirms this. Can we delete the sentence? --Paulrudd (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2017 (UTC)