Talk:Ottawa Senators (original)/Archive 1

Debatable
As of October 16, 2007, the main article here for Ottawa Senators (original) has a section with the word "Debatable?" in its section title, which discusses the 1906 and 1910 Stanley Cups and states that the Senators and Wanderers tied for the 1906 CAHL regular season championship. I believe it ought to be changed to read ECAHA regular season championship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.11.48.39 (talk) 17:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * You're correct. I've fixed that up. Alaney2k 18:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

How old is the Ottawa team?
According to this site, the Ottawa team has been around since 1884. Is this accurate or is this site lumping different teams together? The site says: "The Generals were restructured as the Ottawa Senators in 1902". Masterhatch 03:31, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * While the site has some facts wrong (Lord Stanley returned to Britain for good in July 1893, and the term 'Generals' nowhere appears), I've double-checked sources and they're right: the team has proven continuity back to 1893 and the founding of the AHA. Ravenswing 06:07, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

The Ottawa Senators go back to 1884. That was the year the club was created. From 1884-1902 they were simply the nameless OTTAWA HOCKEY CLUB. From 1903-1934 They were the OTTAWA SENATORS HOCKEY CLUB. It's the same organization. Giantdevilfish 05:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I've been researching the Sens for quite a while, this is what I gathered for their history


 * 1884-1885             MONTREAL WINTER CARNIVAL
 * 1886                  DOMINION CHAMPIONSHIP
 * 1887/1889             AHAC (inactive in 1888)
 * 1890-1894             AHAC and OHA (possibly played in the Ottawa City Hockey League in 1891)
 * 1895-1898             AHAC
 * 1899-1904             CAHL
 * 1905                     FAHL
 * 1906-1907/08        ECAHA
 * 1908/09                ECHA
 * 1909/10                CHA then NHA
 * 1910/11-1916/17   NHA
 * Joined NHL in 1917/18Giantdevilfish 23:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I do recall reading about the Ottawa team in the AHAC however I dont know any evidence whhich suggests the teams playing in 1884-1885, 86 or so are really the same team. Theres no document which specifically links those teams as the same. Further the shoulder patch on the senators jersey recongnizes the founding in 1894. To be honest I dont think 1884 is the correct founding year. I do know it is likely that it is the same team after 1889 based on dan diamonds total hockey edition 2 book. providing his research was done correctly, since the same players in that book can be linked to the ottawa club after 1893. I think for clarity where there is no doubt and supporting evidence shows the date should stay at 1894. Which provides consistancy with the modern day Senators jersey shoulder patch (MDCCCXCIV 1894)

It is the same team. I was working with an Ottawa historian named Douglas McLeod who was doing research via newspapers on microfilm on the history of the Ottawa HC. He followed the trail of that team from its inception, year by year up, until around 1900. It was the same players that carried over on a year by year basis, and the papers themselves never refer to the Ottawa team disbanding and a new one taking their place. It seems to be the same club going year to year with for the most part the same rosters. I used to run a website called The Hockey Sweater Museum and I was asking him if he came across any descriptions of their uniforms, and he supplied me with the info about the history of the team as he researched the papers as far back as 1882. I doubt that Dan Diamond researched the newspapers of the various cities to confirm how far back the clubs go. He only starts at 1893 because that was the year the AHAC began to keep records. But the league itself goes back to 1887. The Ottawa HC were created in 1883 after the success of the first Montreal Winter Carnival's ice hockey torunament and first began play in 1884 at the Carnival's next hockey tournament. When the tournament was cancelled after 1885, they (along with the other clubs Quebec, Montreal AAA, Montreal McGills, Victorias etc) created their own tournament called The Dominion Championship. The following year the clubs created the AHAC. The Ottawa Club that helped founded the AHAC (who was the same club from 1894) were in play long before then. The team in 1894 (who challenged for the Cup) was the same club (with the same players) from 1893. There is no way the Ottawa team from 1894 and 1893 were different organizations, since they had the same uniforms and had the same roster. I think the whole 1894 date on the patch of the current Senators is either a) to honour the fact that that was the first year that the "senators" name was ever used. At the time the "Capitals" or "Ottawas" was used to describe the team, or b) just innacurate. Just like the fact that the Toronto Maple Leafs and the NHL refer to the 1917/18 Toronto team as the Arenas when at the time the club was still called the Blue Shirts and didn't get the Arenas nickname until the start of the 1918/19 season.

Heck if you go the Ottawa Senators website and click on their history section, they have the club originating in 1901(!).Giantdevilfish 18:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I do agree that relying on a NHL team's marketing department or webmaster for accurate historical information is somewhere to the left of farcical.   Ravenswing  18:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

So in terms of this is the team 1882 now and not 1884?....I still think if these are the claims some published complimation needs to accuratly say this. Dan Diamonds book did look at historical newspapers i believe from 1887-1892 to look at the AHAC which would be a published document, but says nothing to truly link the ottawa clubs as the same. For that matter people can argue the Detroit Redwings are in fact founded before as the Victoria cougars because their players were the same, but we know it was just the players that were purchased not the franchise. My point is there needs to be a published source where this linkage can be made, and for the time being the only thing i can say is 1894, which is known to be wrong because the 1893 team is clearly the same team, and that its a patch thats saying it, heck the ottawa senators today even claim the 1906 stanley cup as a championship year even though the lost to the wanderers that year, yet a banner still hangs in the scotia center. It would be nice though to think that the ottawa club existed for more than 50 years before it was disbanded.....

No. I said the Ottawa historian who was researching this team started reading the papers from 1882 onwards (actually if I recall he started in 1894 than went backwards to 1882). The team was created in 1883 after the success of the Montreal Winter Carnival's ice hockey tournament. They first played in 1884 at the second annual tournament. The club carried the same players year after year with the same uniforms. Its the same club. The Ottawa HC started off as independant in the 1880's, eventually joined up with the O.A.A.C (even adopting their logo which kinda looked like a running sun) in the early 1890's. In the late 1890's they broke away from the O.A.A.C and became independant again (replacing the O.A.A.C logo with a simple "O"). But this was the same organization year in and year out.

As for a published source I can't think of any books off-hand that chronicle the complete history of the Sens, but the newspapers on micro-film clearly show that this team was around in 1884 and evolved into the Senators at the turn of the century. There is a paper trail that follows this team year by year. This is how I obtained the info in my earlier post chroncling what leagues they played in from 1884-1934. I can't put faith in the modern Senators because (as you said) they claim the team was founded in 1894 (when that's not the case) and even thier website contridicts that with them starting in 1901.

BTW not to sound anal but you should really sign your posts. You see this symbol here ~

Just hit that 4 times after you finished writing.Giantdevilfish 00:59, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks actually new to this, that helps(the 4~). As a side interest id kinda like to read up on the carnival and other information directly on the microfilm, would you happen to know some specific dates to narrow the search? thanks very much Jgale061 03:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's some info


 * The Montreal Winter Carnival: Montreal, Québec, Canada. A week long promotional event held for seven consecutive years starting in 1883, in which a hockey tournament was contested in each of the first three carnivals. Three teams were involved in the first tournament - Montreal Victorias, McGill University (AKA The Montreal Mcgills) and The Québec City HC (who would eventually become the Bulldogs). -Québec City won the round robin event. McGills won the title
 * In the 1884 competition there were five teams - Montreal Wanderers (no relation to the latter team that played in the NHL), Montreal Victorias, McGill University, Montreal Crystals and Ottawa HC - Ottawa won the round robin event. Victorias won the title.
 * Six teams played in 1885 when the event was held at the indoor Crystal Rink -Montreal AAA, Montreal Football Club, Montreal Victorias, McGill University, Montreal Crystals and Ottawa HC - Montreal AAA won the round robin event.

The 1883 tournament advertised it as "the novel new game of ice hockey". This was basically the first time hockey got some major exposure to the masses. Despite its popularity, the tournaments were cancelled after 1885. This is why all those teams did thier own tournament in 1886 called The Dominion Championship. The following year the clubs put together the first hockey league in Canada, the AHAC.

As for dates, the Carnivals were held in early Feburary of the respective years. Feb 1884, Feb 1885 etc.

You might find this link very fascinating. http://www.classicauctions.net/cgi-bin/site/viewlot.cgi?lotnumber=573#1

Giantdevilfish 04:00, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

That link is interesting. I wonder who bought it?

Possibly, it would be best to split this article, and have an Ottawa Hockey Club (1884-1902) and have the Senators focus on the 1902 to 1927 period. This might be best because the play was in various leagues, etc. for that period. While there was indisputably an Ottawa connection back in 1884 and 1886 with the AHAC, continuous play after that time period until 1893 seems difficult to prove.

PS Are my additions to this article on this topic okay? Thanks for putting in 'Official founding' someone, but as I suggested it might be best to start the Senators in 1902 and have an Ottawa Hockey Club for the years prior.? Alaney2k 23:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ottawasenatorsoldl.gif
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Number of Stanley Cups?
The current team claims that the original Senators won 11 Stanley Cups. Is this controversial? Should there be a mention of the discrepancy? --Chancemichaels 18:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Chancemichaels
 * The discrepancy comes in two directions; first, that the way the Cup was awarded in challenge cup days doesn't fit neatly into our one-Cup-a-year modern day paradigm, and second, that the Senators management (as is the case elsewhere in the NHL) is neither stocked with nor reflects the viewpoints of hockey historians.   Ravenswing  20:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not controversial. That is the 'NHL count' nowadays. The HHOF counts ten. In the years of 1906 and 1910, the Sens won challenges. The 1906 one is recognized by the HHOF, but not the 1910. The NHL recognizes both. I would argue that eleven is the correct count, because the wins came in eleven seasons of play, but that's my point of view. Alaney2k 18:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I always thought the 11 cups was pretty accurate. I understand that they lost it midway through 1906 to the Montreal Wanderers, but they did successfully defend it earlier that calender year against Queen's University, and the Smith Falls Fusiliers. So shouldn't that count as a Stanley Cup victory since it was successfully defended?

And while they did give the cup up fairly early in 1910 to the new NHA (the plan was to have the NHA champions upon season's end get awarded the Stanley Cup. In this case it was the Montreal Wanderers), they did successfully defend it early that calender year against the Edmonton Pros (the original Edmonton Eskimos) and the Galt Professionals. So since it was successfully defended in 1910 shouldn't that be considered a Stanley Cup victory?Giantdevilfish 00:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Its completely understandable that their is confusion as to how many stanley cups the team should have. Its arguable, yes they defended the champioship, but by seasons end according to the stanley cup trustees rules,lost the stanley cup. Winning the stanley cup at the time didnt just mean defending the challenges but winning your respected league title as well. But that being said its arguable, there will always be two positions to this, and the article needs to reflect this, further, Kudos points must be given to Alaney2k for his extensive work on this article, its fascinating to see how its grown the last 6 months and since they made it to the final. But I would ask even though the article reflects this confusiion we need a seperate section in dealing with this debate on how many stanley cups were won. first it was 8, then 10, then 11, next thing you know it will be 12. Or one for each challenge that was won. Jgale061 19:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The way I understand it is that the HHOF doesn't count a defend as winning. That you only won it if you didn't already have it. But thats just what someone explained to me once so I have no references or anything. --Djsasso 19:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's as straightforward as that. I don't know of a published source for their determinations. There is no official count from the trustees. The only way that I have come up with that is indisputable (I think) is to say "The Sens won it outright nine times and won challenges in two other seasons." It's only two years in dispute, I don't know how people could come up with 8, which would deny one of the outright wins. Anything beyond eleven can't be defended either, I think. Alaney2k 20:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Just because the current team only claims 11 Stanley Cups, doesn't mean the rest of the cups they won should be omitted from the article. They are a 19 times Stanley Cup champions.  Why wouldn't you want to claim that?   Mr. C.C. Hey yo!I didn't do it! 01:56, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

GA Review - February 2008
This artile needs quite a lot of work.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 04:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In the notes section, you don't have to create a tag lie "[Robinson]" in teh book list and then use that as a tag throughout the shortform notes. Simply remove the tag IDs and then put "Simpson, p. 63." and so forth. For MacGregor, just use "MacGregor (1993), p. 1." or "MacGregor (1996), p. 2." to disambiguate.
 * The Finnigan book - the page numbers need to be given rather than simply citing the book at large
 * Page formatting needs to be consistent, p. and pp. for single and multiple pages respectively
 * why does it refer to some players as "Mr." This should not be used, simply use their surname on these cases
 * Some sections are still unreferenced and need referencing. The article is strong underreferenced
 * The article does not seem broad enough in that the article is almost entirely based on the on field aspects of the clubs, whereas little administration, uniform, fan following is included in teh article
 * Please use ndashes in the fields for the years and the score margins
 * It is against the MOS to have such deep level headings, such as level five and headers like "Champions in in 1906 and 1910? Debatable" and "first dynasty" introduce POV into the article
 * Single line paragraphs need to merged and integrated.
 * The "see the article..." tags should be moved to the fonrt of the section.
 * In the list of SC appearances, past tense should be used to recollect a histroical event.
 * Some discussion of the strenghts and weaknesses and the playing style would be good.

Photograph
The photpgraph of the 1930 jersey is not an 'own work' it appeared in volume 2 of trail to the stanley cup by coleman and should either reflect that or be removed from the article 130.15.40.172 (talk) 17:32, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, an artist's rendition of the 1933 jersey appeared in Vol II, but it's not identical to that one. I just checked with my own volume.    Ravenswing  12:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I followed the Coleman illustration as a model, but used Photoshop to make the image from scratch. It's not a direct scan or photograph. Alaney2k (talk) 17:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)