Talk:Otto Lilienthal

Headline text
Entry deleted due to utterly pointless insult to the physical appearance of O. Lilienthal. --82.82.136.110 18:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jew?
I am sorry to post at the top but the discussion below is an exceedingly lengthy one and I would like to point out why, imho, it is of interest whether Lilienthal or anyone of that general time and place was Jewish:

Firstly, as mentioned below, Nazis spent serious effort discrediting German (and non-German) Jewish scientists and artists, so as a counterbalancing effort, it is not unreasonable to indicate a Jewish background.

Secondly, the status of Jews in Europe in the mid-19th century was somewhat unusual. In many countries, they were not full citizens or had only recently become such. If a scientist was able to overcome societal handicaps and contribute, this is of interest; certainly if a scientist had been black and born in 1849, it would be mentioned and of great importance to his life story.--Jrm2007 (talk) 10:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

was he a jew? Matanya 5 July 2005 11:49 (UTC)

'No he wasnt.Why would he be?'

Why i dont read on wikipedia: was a son of muslim parents, or christian parents etc... Why is being a Jew, or have Jewish parents so important ?

There seems to be a edit skirmish and the User:Zivb2006 insists on adding, do we have any proof of that? STTW (talk)  17:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Zivb2006 is understandbly confused because many partisan-like organizations have mistakenly reported Otto Lilienthal as Jewish. The misconception probably arised out of his surname which to many onlookers sounds very Jewish. In fact, his ancestors were Swedish, and it just so happens many Swedish surnames have a Jewish sound to them. Usedup 17:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The only reason i added him to this category is because he appears to be one in alot of other encyklopedias and sources on the net (and off it), and if he had not, i would have never added him to this category.


 * He is described as Jewish in the Encyclopaedia Judaica, which is a reliable source. It appears from the above comment that there are plenty of other sources.  Are there reliable sources which say that he was not Jewish?--Runcorn 23:29, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Many. In fact, the Otto Lilienthal Museum in his birthplace of Anklam has a massive display of his geneology from generations back. The German publication Juden im Deutschen Kulturbereich by Siegmund Kaznelson, which was written in order to straighten the records of many people whose backgrounds were completely obfuscated during the Nazi Era (another notable one is Anatole France), writes at length of Otto Lilienthal's background. You see, the post-Nazi regime was not very careful of their resources and Nazis didn't bother keeping records after the Third Reich's collapse. I think a lot of those mistakes came from Lilienthal's very Jewish-sounding name. It is actually a Germanification of a Swedish surname, which may have had something to do with it. If you want a reference in English, see the Journal of "Jewish Social Studies" By Conferences on Jewish Relations (US edition). It basically makes many of the same conclusions as the Kaznelson book. You can also contact the people that run the website on Otto Lilienthal Museum. This information on Lilienthal not being Jewish is actually known pretty widely. Here are two forums where people are correcting the mistake:, . It is understandable that the anon continually adding Lilienthal is confused, but he could simply present his case on the talk page instead of edit war. I had to resort to a request for page lock. Usedup 02:14, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Blogs are not reliable sources. Vague references to museum displays and journals 9without pages or even years) are not verifiable. Is there a reliable and verifiable source that you can cite here?  Here are some cites that are certainly no worse than these blogs., , .  I could easily list more.  None of these trumps a standard reference encyclopaedia, does it?--20.138.246.89 10:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Hello anon. I do not appreciate the condescending "attack" on my reply here with statements such as "Blogs are not reliable" and "Vague references....are not verifiable." I am assuming you are interested in Otto Lilienthal the person, and not simply Otto Lilienthal the representative of the Jewish people? If so, try to find anything about him not written in a partisan web-page like some of the sites your provided. Here are some points: Look, I think that he's backround was both jewish(although not practicing at all) and swedish-lutheranian, so that he was both in one way or the other, but its abbit of a problem because alot of different sources say different things, but i will keep on cheking it.Look i'll give you an example, the german inventor Berthold Schwartz also had a jewish sounding name although i know about him for 100% that he was not, and for that reason i did not add him to the category(the same for example with johan guttenberg)but with otto lilienthal its with further proof iv'e got.User:Zivb2006
 * 1) I never said "blogs" are reliable sources, and those are forums not blogs (equally unreliable), which if you actually thoroughly read my reply, you'd see I mentioned. They are examples showing that the error of Lilienthal's background is not unknown to the general public. This information on Lilienthal not being Jewish is actually known pretty widely. Here are two forums where people are correcting the mistake: is what I wrote. I never intended for the links I provided to be used as confirmations that Lilienthal was not Jewish. That would be, as you bluntly implied, very stupid of me.
 * 2) If you would have bothered to even look up the Journal in the way I presented it, you'd see that there is only one version of this called Journal of "Jewish Social Studies" By Conferences on Jewish Relations (with only subsequent editions changed every few years), and the original text is kept at Stanford University. You can probably find digital versions of this text at any media library. I believe google books has a snippet of it for viewing. This unfortunately won't give you a full read of the information though.
 * 3) Encyclopedias, usually, should not be cited with other Encyclopedias. This has been mentioned on wikipedia before: Reliable_sources. Primary sources are the best. Secondary come next. Encyclopedias are considered tertiary sources. In fact, the Jewish Encyclopedia itself (I'm not sure about Encyclopedia Judaica) has run into a lot of trouble in the past. Some years ago, the family of Felix Klein had to make public statements that they were not Jewish because the Jewish Encyclopedia recorded them as such. A German newspaper later published these statements. The newspaper was, albeit, right-wing but this doesn't really change the fact that the Jewish Encyclopedia was wrong.
 * 4) Find any standard publication of his life in detail and you'll see the error, including details of everything I said of his Swedish heritage. The truth is, there is not any published biography of Lilienthal that I know of in the English language so although I wish I could refer to one; none exist. However, the website for the Otto Lilienthal museum is just as good as a published biography. It can offer you absolutely anything you'd want to know about Lilienthal. Contact the website. Here is a link: Usedup 14:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I understand fully why you might think this, but the problem is that the confusion on Lilienthal isn't the first time something like this has happened. It happens so frequently, in fact, newspaper articles and books are often created in order to "straighten the record" on both people BEING Jewish and NOT BEING Jewish. Yes, we have publications saying that Lilienthal was a "Jewish glider" and variations on that but there also are publications saying his ancestors were Swedish and noting nothing about Jewish ancestry. One example I found was Robert Kronfeld's (who ironically was Jewish) "The Story of Motorless Human Flight" where it is written "Otto Lilienthal was born on May 23rd, 1848, in a small German town, his family being descendants of old Swedish ancestors that had settled in Germany" Page 26. In addition, the book I mentioned above is a massive listing of people whose Jewish ancestry was unknown until now and people who were often thought to be Jewish but weren't. Lilienthal is on there as one who was mistaken to be Jewish, among many others that have already been confirmed elsewhere. Schwartz actually means "black" in German if I'm not mistaken, so there should be a lot of non-Jewish Schwartzs anyway. You bring up the possibility of Lilienthal being "both," but there is really no way to establish that as truth, especially if we have places saying he definitely wasn't Jewish and the information on him being Jewish is a mistake, and others saying he was "the Jewish glider" or "the Jewish pioneer of flight." We can't just take the middle ground. Usedup 16:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Well mybe, but what i am trying to say is that its not something we can prove to that way or the other, its all mainly a matter of speculations, because in those times people used more to conceal their origens and did note expose them publiclly like today, especially jewish people becuse of fear of anti-semitism(not just in germany but all across europe), but i promise to keep checking in all sort of different sources.User:Zivb2006
 * Ok but then you could say that about almost any European. I don't see how anyone can know anything for sure. Like you said, a lot of history is speculations. Yes, many people could be Jews that we don't know of, but a lot of it has to do with relevance. What relevance does Otto Lilienthal being Jewish have to do with much of anything? Maybe if there was something to go on there, a more hardcore investigation would be merited, but right now there are two reasonably well-known publications saying Lilienthal's background wasn't Jewish at all and his whole geneology charted out at the Otto Lilienthal museum (I found a segment of it online: ). The Jewish Social Studies publication mentions this as well, saying that his geneology was compiled way before the advent of the Nazi era (when a lot of non-Jews were proclaimed Jews and a lot of Jews were proclaimed non-Jews). That whole era not only screwed up history, but left a horrendous paper-trail of mistakes. Usedup 19:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Firstly, IP editors are also entitled to the benefit of WP:Civil and WP:AGF. Secondly, whether his ancestors were Swedish is irrelevant.  Maybe they were Swedish Jews.  Thirdly, obviously we must accept the preponderance of reliable, verifiable sources that have been produced.  Finally, I have two more good sources, both from the Jewish Chronicle and both pre-dating any confusion caused by the Nazis.
 * Except we have two sources where Lilienthal is on a list of people who are mistaken to be Jewish. I think this counts off your theory of "Swedish Jews." Usedup 03:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * August 12 1910, p.22, quotes the reminiscences of one Herr Wilhelm Meyer-Forster, who knew "the late Otto Lilienthal, the Jewish engineer" and flew in one of his aeroplanes.
 * Wilhelm Meyer-Forster may have known Lilienthal, but there's no way he flew in one of his aeroplanes given that Lilienthal never built an aeroplane. It is important to distinguish here if Meyer-Forster called Lilienthal Jewish or the person who is quoting Meyer-Forster is calling Lilienthal Jewish. Usedup 03:33, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Article, "Jews and Aviation", February 23 1917, p.14-15 is based on an interview with Professor Selig Brodetsky, who had been researching Jewish contributions to science. He says "In many cases the only evidence one has that certain scientists were Jews is that they have apparently Jewish sounding names.  But these names are deceptive, and the result, as a rule, leads to misunderstanding and confusion."  He continues, "Luckily, however, I have come across two instances of Jews whose achievements are of such great importance that Jews, on this account, can be said to have played an integral part in the theory and art of flying."  These undoubted Jews were "D. Schwarz, a pioneer of airships" (i.e. David Schwarz (aviation inventor), and "the Jew, Otto Lilienthal". - R613vlu 23:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * For both of these, it would help for analytical purpose if you could copy and paste the entire article, or give a link if possible. Many of your excerpts do not make clear who is saying what in what order. One thing that's interesting to me is both call Lilienthal "a Jew" but neither call him German, which every one knows him to be. Usedup 03:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As for the IP, if the IP editors stay civil to me, it will be reciprocated. R613vlu (I had to copy and paste that really hard to memorize username), I can list about 10 more sources that say Otto Lilienthal is a Jew. Want me to? Quantity is not what we're after, because each source derives information from another, and eventually to a root. The first publication clearing Lilienthal's background was in the early 1930s (one later in 1939 which you can view a snippet on google books). His geneology was even collected before then. I can give you the link to all his relatives but the page doesn't given their religion and nationality as the full. However, I'm going to go an contact the museum (since no one else will) and send them your two sources from the Jewish Chronicle and ask them for other information on Lilienthal. I will then give links to whatever sources they give me (or a bibliography). If the museum agrees that Lilienthal was a Jew, then we can add the category. I'm not just saying this because I know they won't. I'm saying it to prove to you what I've been saying is true, in a Socratic method type of way. I believe you believe me and what I'm saying is true, so I'll take your information into account, especially the one on Lilienthal's friend. Satisfied? Usedup 03:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

you are right.Lilienthal was not jewish (this is myth) he was protestant and he and his family(brother gustav and parents) were memebers of lutherien evangelical church of Anklam.there is documentation proof at the O.Lilienthal museum there. More information on Lilienthal and his brother, Gustav can be read in this famous book in german Erfinderleben. Die Brüder Otto und Gustav Lilienthal by Manuela Runge and Bernd Lukasch book also mentions their religions. 207.67.151.191

look, as i have already said before, nothing can be prooved by 100%(if he was a jewish-german or a lutheranian-german), so i think it would be for the best if we all just left this issue with a big question mark.I really can't see any point of us all going through it all the time and try to find different sources that he was or he was not..User:Zivb2006
 * So you're suggesting not adding any categories of Swedish/Jewish to him? I'd agree with that. Even his Swedish heritage is not 100% confirmed. But it seems that somebody already added Lilienthal to List of German Jews. Usedup 18:58, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, here is the email response from the Otto Lilienthal Museum:

Yes,and i would also suggest that inside the article we could write a line or two(although not neccasery) speculating his "could be" origens, only if its fine by you of course. Is it?..User:Zivb2006
 * Personally I don't think his ethnic of religious background is relevant unless it had some outstanding effect on him as a person. Whether he was Swedish, Jewish, or French some generations back really doesn't matter much at all. It may matter to some encyclopedias, such as religion-oriented ones such as the Catholic Encyclopedia or the Encyclopedia Judaica, but wikipedia isn't associated with either. Usedup 22:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

The list you just mentioned is much less important so it would be better if we all would not start arguing about that aswell..User:Zivb2006


 * Usedup, I saw you were citing some forums and an email as your source. I would like to remind you of WP:RS and I would like you to be more careful with the sources you are intending to use. Self-published sources are never to be used as references, so I would appreciate if you could (if you haven't already) find some NPOV source that says whether or not Otto Lilienthal was Jewish.  Nish kid 64  18:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's not true, and I'm assuming you think this because another user possibly misdirected you (or you didn't read my response above labelled as 1)). I wasn't citing the forums as my source at all and you can verify this from the sentence I put before I showed the forums: This information on Lilienthal not being Jewish is actually known pretty widely. Here are two forums where people are correcting the mistake: Whoever told you I was was trying to discredit me as a giver of reference. What I was citing as my source was "Juden im Deutschen Kulturbereich by Siegmund Kaznelson," "The Journal of Jewish Social Studies by Conference (US edition) Pg 194. (1939-1988)" where the statement "[] This impression becomes still more probable when considering that Otto Lilienthal, pioneer of aviation, often erroneously identified as Jewish []" is available as a snippet on google books, The Otto Lilienthal Museum of Anklam (as a primary source) -- whereas I e-mailed the museum director and reproduced the e-mail below; within that e-mail are primary sources of Otto Lilienthal's Anklam Church registry -- and the Schwipps and Runge/Lukasch Otto Lilienthal biographies. Another user also said that an english book on the Otto Lilienthal brothers makes the same statement about his background. So you see, many of the reference I have are actually primary sources (the best type), and many more are secondary. Usedup 22:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, if you're using legitimate sources, then their should not be any problem. Continue your discussion with these users, and once an agreement has been made, leave me a message when you want the page unprotected.  Nish kid 64  22:20, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
 * He wasn't Jewish, I would know, he's my great-great-great-great-grandfather. The Lilienthal hasn't been Jewish for hundreds (as in like 750+ years).

EDIT. You can still find the Lilienthal family, most of them live in Oregon.--76.115.238.39 (talk) 01:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The name Lilienthal is not rare in Germany /Sweden. There is no relation known to Amerika. See: family tree; extended tree (known Lilienthal's)OLMuseum (talk) 17:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

It's nearly funny (not untypical for "Allies mentality"!) to make a "bad" German for example a "good" jew. Or a "swedish" person, like in this article. But Lilienthal was neither jewish nor swedish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.183.36.186 (talk) 17:32, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

YES ! he was indeed Jewish !

Look here: in the german wikipedia about his relative PETER LILIENTHAL

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Lilienthal

Peter Lilienthal ist der Sohn eines Bühnenbildners und ein Nachkomme des Flugpioniers Otto Lilienthal.[1] 1939 floh seine Mutter aufgrund ihres jüdischen Glaubens mit ihm vor den Nationalsozialisten nach Uruguay, wo diese ein kleines Hotel eröffnete

The mother of Peter Lilienthal is described as being jewish. And his mother was the sister of OTTO LILIENTHAL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:191:5FA0:8CAF:D771:D29F:6DF8 (talk) 18:31, 7 January 2018 (UTC) This isn’t true, for many reasons. Where do you see “Schwester” in the citation above? Anyone who tried to assert such made-up truth must have been purposefully lying for specific (((needs))). Based on my research Otto hadn’t a sister but a brother whose name was Gustav, and if he actually had any, it only means she must have bore her child 33 years after the death at the age of 48 of her older brother. To claim it was a younger brother is beyond dubious considering that Jew’s female fetilty. How old was her when she had her child? 30, 20, 40? It couldn’t be so long after 40 because of scientific limitation, no matter how rich they are. Otto was born in 1848 and died at 1896. Because of this their mother must have been super tough if she was the same woman. Moreover, it states that Peter was Otto’s descendant which can only suggest Otto was one of his patriarchs, leaving us only to doubt As to how that woman is related to Otto. She couldn’t have been Otto’s sister unless we assume we assume the possibly that she might have married her own nephew which was Otto’s male child which he had plenty. She might have been his granddaughter or daughter or even granddaughter and daughter-in law. If she was within the in law category, any attempt to prove his Jewishness through this is barely relevant and should be considered the last option. However even if she wasn’t, being a granddaughter or a daughter doesn’t suggest that Otto himself was Jewish because a person couldn’t be born without a mother who can be Jewish, especially if she was his granddaughter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gentilecommoner (talk • contribs) 12:34, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Why isn't Otto himself labeled as Jewish in the German wiki then? Besides if his last name is Lilienthal then he would've been related to Otto through his father, instead of his mother. I'm gonna remove the statement saying his father was a Jewish merchant now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HBBorges (talk • contribs) 04:02, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that on the German wikipedia, it also says he is descended from a well known Lutheran theologian through his fathers grandmother. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HBBorges (talk • contribs) 00:15, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Email to Lilienthal museum
Of course you can use the German biographies (Schwipps, Runge/Lukasch) to give a source. A better primary source is: church register of "St. Nicolai", Anklam, archives of Otto-Lilienthal-Museum, accession number A156. Otto-Lilienthal-Museum.

Dr. Bernd Lukasch Otto-Lilienthal-Museum www.lilienthal-museum.de Ellbogenstr. 1, D-17389 Anklam/Germany Tel./FAX: +49-3971-245500/245580 - Original Message -


 * Ok, are there any biographies you can refer me to that confirm this? You see, this information needs to be sourced for the online encyclopedia wikipedia.

=
== He was Protestant. We have documents from the evangelical church in Anklam in the Museum. Possibly his ancstors came from Sweden, it is not surely known.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/kind regards B. Lukasch

Dr. Bernd Lukasch Otto-Lilienthal-Museum www.lilienthal-museum.de Ellbogenstr. 1, D-17389 Anklam/Germany Tel./FAX: +49-3971-245500/245580 - Original Message -


 * Was Otto Lilienthal Jewish?
 * I know theres a lot of confusion on whether he was Jewish or not. Can you please provide me with some sources?
 * Thanks
 * Thanks
 * Thanks

Usedup 20:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Because of the fact that Lilienthal definitely was not a Jew I would propase to delete the reference "Encyclopaedia Judaica" because it is misleading.OLMuseum (talk) 10:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Syndrome of Lilienthal
This bit should be deleted. It's clearly fiction. Anybody disagree? 83.71.32.173 12:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Biplane
I read that his glider was a biplane, but the photos here don't prove it. Any comments on that?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 15:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Lilienthal had many gliders, including at least one biplane (a model example may be seen at the National Air & Space Museum in Washington D.C.), though the majority of his prototypes and successful gliders were single-winged. Schnabeltier Angriff 20:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * More exactly: He built 3 biplanes in 1895 : Nr.13, Nr.14 and Nr. 15. Nr. 15. Nr. 15 original glider is preserved in Deutsches Museum, Munich. --192.108.125.11 07:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

redirects
I tried to get to this page by typing in "Lilienthal" and got rejected. I had to go google the guy to learn his first name to find this page. I will admit freely that I do not know how to set up redirects. Can someone create a redirect for "Lilienthal" so that it comes here? A lot of us don't know this guy's first name until we get here, you know. (Yes, I know that only a modern American would complain about having to make the trek all the way over to google and back for information, but redirects help smooth out the process.)


 * Typing in Lilienthal takes you to Lilie which is the origin for that name (and other similar ones); under its sub-heading Lilienthal, he is listed, along with several others who share his surname. Does that do allright for you? -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 05:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Intro paragraph
First "controllable" glider is not quite right, as it seems to imply the use of control devices. His gliders were not controlled with movable surfaces (like an elevator or ailerons, for example). He controlled his flight path, as best he could, by shifting his body weight in one direction or another in a rather athletic manner (as mentioned later in the article). A more accurate introduction, I believe, would say he "...was a pioneer of human aviation, who was the first person to make repeated successful short flights in a fixed-wing heavier than air glider." The introduction can be fleshed out with, "He followed an experimental approach to gliding first established earlier in the century by Sir George Cayley. Lilienthal made approximately 2,000 glides from 1891 until his death in a gliding crash in 1896. Photographs of him in the air were published worldwide and influenced public and scientific opinion about the possibility of flying machines emerging from idle fantasy into practical reality." (This intro would require some editing of the fourth paragraph.) DonFB 02:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * He was the first to realise 3-axis control systems, & was supposedly working on small, powered machines, with a man-sized one ready for testing at the time of his death. They used a form of gas-generating rocket engine. He may well have taught the Wright's to fly. See; http://www.lilienthal-museum.de/olma/eotto.htm general info. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Archolman (talk • contribs) 22:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC).
 * I noticed the above comment and want to state for the record that I believe some of it is not accurate. I have read some (not all) of the website you cited. The site discusses Lilienthal's control methods and their limitations. I did not find any mention that he achieved 3-axis control, or that he "taught the Wrights to fly". In discussing Lilienthal's fatal accident, a page on the website says,
 * "Steering with body shifting through a strong thermal did not succeed. The period of successful flights and then the accident demonstrated his flight concept and its limited steering ability.... ....there were two other problems he did not solve. The solution of these problems, in the evolution of the invention of the flying machine came through the research of the Wright brothers: First: The steering of the aircraft with Lilienthal's method of shifting the centre of mass was not sufficient in his glider design for non-standard or dangerous situations. The maximum weight shift was not large enough in comparison to the size of the glider." (Wing-flapping for propulsion was the 2nd problem.) Lilienthal was a great pioneer, but it's important to be accurate about what he did, and did not accomplish. DonFB (talk) 15:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

And Jan Wnęk was the real first person to fly glide, 20 years before lilienthal —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wnekuu (talk • contribs) 19:41, 2 November 2009 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Wn%C4%99k he was first, not liliental, so why it is writen that he was first? how wikipedia could become good source of information, when there ale lies? maby it's because Wnęk was only peasant, who couldn't read? And what about tolerance? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wnekuu (talk • contribs) 16:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Please let's stick to Wikipedia policy
Can we please stick to Wikipedia policies and not misquote WP:RS. WP:A is one of Wikipedia's two core content policies. It deprecates the use of primary sources, and says explicitly that "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources wherever possible". WP:RS is only a guideline and is overridden by WP:A; in any case, it only refers to primary, secondary and tertiary sources, and it is incorrect to claim that it says or implies that primary sources are better. Further, "articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary sources". - Runcorn 17:24, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, Runcorn, I never misquoted WP:RS because WP:RS refers to sourcing on wikipedia and not research on subject matter. Primary sources are the best in terms of research because they're not potentially morphed by point of view, but as wikipedia states, sourcing with primary sources shouldn't be done because they can be used based on the perspective of the person doing the referencing. That is why secondary sources are favored. And as you know, there are plenty of secondary sources that support what I've been saying. So I don't know what your point is or how this supports anything on Otto Lilienthal. Usedup 00:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

"....let's stick to Wikipedia policy" stick your own self

Copied from talk pages
I recommend you do not revert as you have done on List of Jewish inventors and List of German Jews without knowing all the facts on TALK:Otto Lilienthal. Had you have have read this page, you'd know there are as many as five official published accounts that say Lilienthal is not Jewish (two of which say directly that he is "erroneously" identified as Jewish, and three which are official biographies). You can verify the first two with directions I gave on TALK:Otto Lilienthal. The biographies are not available unless you can read German and find snippets on the database that the German wikipedia article has here.....but you can actually e-mail the author of one at the Otto Lilienthal museum and "verify" it this way. Either way, your statement that there are no reliable sources to "three?" (which I'm not sure how you derived not having read TALK:Otto Lilienthal) reliable sources is just flat-out wrong. Please do not revert again. Usedup 21:39, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not be so condescending. What makes you think I haven't read TALK:Otto Lilienthal? A publication purporting "to straighten the records of many people whose backgrounds were completely obfuscated during the Nazi Era" is irrelevant, since there are reliable sources predating the Nazis that Lilienthal was Jewish. Please provide proof that any of the references are "official biographies" - official by whose criteria? You cannot verify anything by quoting e-mails; an e-mail is not a verifiable source. I shall continue to ensure that Wikipedia abides by WP:A, which is policy. - Newport 17:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to let the you two know, I reverted to the last version by Used-up on List of Jewish inventors because Newport hasn't given any reasons why his sources are more reliable and/or verifiable. Siegmund Kaznelson's book is actually a really good source. Anyone with an e-publications account can access part of it, and I believe it's available at most libraries with an international section. As for the others, I never heard of any Jewish Social Studies Journal, but that is not to say it doesn't exist. What is meant by "official biography" should probably also be explained. Truth is, none of these sources on either side are easily "verifiable" so I don't think this should be used as a strong criteria for reverting. --Tellerman

Not true, several of the sources I present ARE easily verifiable. Contacting the author of a book is pretty much as verifiable as you can get. The Jewish Social Studies Journal has a collection:. I once again point anyone who has doubts to google-books. What do you mean "What is meant by Official Biography"? An official biography is a biography that is not self-published and written by a professional. I direct anyone to the external link on the German wikipedia here, to see the numerous publications (in German) written about Otto Lilienthal. I have not been presented with any source from a biographical publication on Lilienthal claiming he was of Jewish descent. Encyclopedia Judaica, the Jewish Chronicle, and books like "A Little Joy; A Little Oy by Marnie Winston" are not professional publications on Otto Lilienthal's life; they are merely reporting another of many supposed "Jewish people" in their writings. Usedup 05:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There are two Jewish Chronicle sources. One is a quote from someone who knew him.  The other reports the specific researches of Selig Brodetsky on Lilienthal; brodetsky is quoted explicitly as saying that Lilienthal was Jewish and it was not just a question of his having a Jewish name.  Quoting a book that has not previously been cited is a red herring.  Note that both these Jewish Chronicle sources predate the Nazis; it was a Nazi claim that he was not Jewish.  And e-mailing an author and citing his response is not verifiable.--20.138.246.89 10:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Read User_talk:Newport to help clear up your misunderstandings. Usedup 02:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Note: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think user:Used-up is citing the email as a source, but rather the book the emailee has written as the source. That emailee is Dr. Bernad Lukasch so I'm assuming the book in reference to be "Erfinderleben. Die Brüder Otto und Gustav Lilienthal by Manuela Runge and Bernd Lukasch." Which, by the way, was mentioned earlier on this talk page by another anon so it seems to be popular. In general, biographies are seen as better sources than newspapers (?) like the Jewish Chronicle. Is there a biography that says Otto Lilienthal is Jewish?
 * You are not incorrect at all. Finally, someone actually reads what I write. I'd like to know the answer to that last question myself. No one appears to want to answer that. Usedup 23:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Two Suggestions: Both Used-up and Newport appear to be discussing something about sources pre-dating or post-dating the Nazis. I would advise that we avoid these type of discussions as they are original research. Whether a source pre-dates or post-dates a certain timeframe is irrelevant if the source says what you're looking for. Secondly, perhaps page locks need to be instituted so we can prevent edit wars.

Reminder: The burden of proof is on the person who claims their source is better. --Tellerman
 * The Jewish Chronicle is one of Britain's oldest national newspapers. Why does Tellerman say "newspapers (?) like the Jewish Chronicle"?--20.138.246.89 16:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to refer to me in the third person, I am part of this discussion. Anyway, went ahead and did a little investahmahgating myself. Here are the full articles on Brodetsky's Jews in Aviation and Reminiscences of Mayer-Furster and the conveniently overlooked "Jews" and Jews. So to respond to Used-up's question about whether "the Jewish engineer" was written by Herr Mayer-Furster or the author of the article, it appears to be the article-writer. Not sure what the point of that source was then. Seems like Brodetsky may have stumbled upon another "hopeless goy" after all. --Tellerman

Quote
I believe that the Quote at the top of the page is wrong, because on wikiquote, it said that that is a quote that was made about him, not by him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.105.205 (talk) 18:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You are right: See, but Ferber signed the quote with "Otto Lilienthal", himself.OLMuseum (talk) 19:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

How do you pronounce his last name?
Could someone add this information? Thank you! DBlomgren (talk) 04:40, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Better late than never: His last name is somewhat pronounced like "lee-lee-ann-toll", stress on the first syllable. The "o" in the last syllable here should be spoken very "open", like in "Mom", or better, like the "u" in the words "nut" and "hut". The meaning of his name is, by the way, "valley of the lilies". Greetings from K-Town, Germany, Ein alter Lauterer94.219.1.215 (talk) 23:51, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

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a comment
"Sacrifices must be made!" "must"?! for whom and for what?! (sadomasochism or something?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.101.175 (talk) 23:13, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Jewish origin?
How can we get rid of the obviously wrong claim of jewish origin? The sources given do themselves not have any second level source, they just make the claim. I checked German sources. Not of them debates this in detail. Seems as nobody sees this as a relevant issue. Best--Nillurcheier (talk) 13:41, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll point out that edited Wikipedia text in neither the article nor the footnotes makes a "claim" of his Jewish origin. In the footnotes, the article simply reports that several sources have identified him as Jewish. The reliability of sources can be challenged through discussion, but Wikipedia policies and guidelines do not require that sources being used "have any second level source," as you said. In the article or footnotes, any text disputing or rebutting the statements made by the existing sources about his identity must be based, in turn, on reliable published source(s). DonFB (talk) 02:46, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I have to agree with you that the "claim" is only made by the sources and the articles is well in line with the Wikipedia policies. However it stays dissatisfying that none of the sources itself is citing a reliable secondary source, which would help to proof the stance of jewish ancestry. Hence, I am challenging these sources. I also asked for reliable  family sources in the German Wikipedia. Let's wait and see, whether there are any.
 * Yes, let's see if other sources are available on the other side of the issue. But again, our policies don't say that we can only accept sources that show their own sources and not accept sources if we don't like the sources they cite, or if they don't cite any of their own. DonFB (talk) 09:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * here is a first source for his father's baptizm: https://lilienthal-museum.museumnet.eu/nachlass-lilienthal/korrespondenzpartner/18060 --Nillurcheier (talk) 09:42, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, there is a long discussion about this topic, I didn't notice before, let us go through it.--Nillurcheier (talk) 11:42, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Here is his Confirmation document: https://www.deutsche-digitale-bibliothek.de/item/QYSXTFGIUQQBWKKFPY5WQBHZOHBBMS65 so we can close the discussion --Nillurcheier (talk) 12:17, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The "confirmation document" reference needs to be properly formatted in the footnote, showing, at a minimum: webpage title (linked to webpage url), website name, possibly the publisher, and date accessed. Keep in mind that, under Wikipedia policy, primary sources, of which the "confirmation" page is clearly an example, must be used with caution, and should not be interpreted by Wikipedia editors in any manner. With that caution in mind, I looked at several sources in addition to the references here for his baptism and confirmation and have not found any statement of "Protestant" demonination, as written in the article. Without a source explicitly supporting the phrase "He was Protestant", that phrase should be deleted. I changed spelling to "Anklam"; the "confirmation" image appears to show "Anclam", but I believe we should standardize on spelling with the letter k, which is what numerous sources use. Again, I want to see the reference properly expanded into a standard format, with adequate identifying information. The wording in the footnote, "Nevertheless some sources claim him to be Jewish", is acceptable to me. DonFB (talk) 07:25, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, we are making progress. Sorry for the unsufficient formating of the ocnfirmation source, I will correct that. Anclam was the common spelling till 1902 (says the German WIkipedia). He was member of the evangelical-lutharan church, which is beyond any doubt a protestant denomination. But may be it is more precise to keep the evangelical-lutheran. There is another proper source: : „Juden im deutschen  Kulturbereich“  von  Katznelson  (Jüdischer  Verlag,  1959), Anhang  „Irrtümlich  für  Juden  gehalten“  auf  Seite  1053 darunter wird  Otto  Lilienthal  aufgeführt. Translation: Amendment page 1054: "mistakenly thought to be jewish" names Otto Lilienthal among others. Nillurcheier (talk) 15:45, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't see referencing for the text: "He was a member of the Evangelical-Lutheran Church...." If that phrase is based on an assumption of his (or his parents') membership because of his baptism in a particular church, such an assumption falls short of Verifiability. Without explicit referencing of membership, the sentence should be modified, simply to say: "He was baptised in St. Nicholas church[5] and confirmed in St. Mary's church, both in Anklam.[6]" DonFB (talk) 00:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * In 1848, being baptized in that church (building) meant of course becoming member of the church (religious body) who ran the church (building). And confirmation means (then and now), becoming full member of that church. But anyhow, I rate that "minor". --Nillurcheier (talk) 14:37, 28 November 2021 (UTC)