Talk:Otto Warmbier/Archive 3

Countries visited -- Europe
Does anybody happen to know which countries in Europe he had visited? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4DD2:BB73:0:8853:D080:9AD:4D2 (talk) 00:17, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Why does it matter?--Jack Upland (talk) 00:24, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The WaPo article cited simply says he travelled twice to Europe, without specifying which countries. At least one of those visits was to England, where he did a study-abroad course. Muzilon (talk) 00:31, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

'Claimed their son's body showed signs of torture'

 * They also claimed their son's body showed signs of torture, such as "rearranged" teeth, and disfigured hands and feet.

His parents (actually father) said no such thing in that interview, which is on YouTube. They were shocked at his condition certainly.The father merely said his son's front lower teeth looked like they had been rearranged with pliers, and did not mention either that or the condition of the hands and feet as being evidence of torture. The parents must be accounted as knowing what their son's front teeth looked like originally. The pathologist should not be quoted as if he is discrediting allegations from them, which they did not in fact make in that interview. There maybe was an implication, but they did not say what the article is saying they explicitly said, then dragging in the pathologist to discredit an assertion that they never made.Overagainst (talk) 00:50, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * In their interviews with Fox News and CNN, the parents repeatedly said that Otto was "tortured" and "intentionally injured" by North Korea. They specifically commented on his twisted teeth, and the scar on his foot. In the CNN interview they added the detail that his hands and legs appeared "deformed." The coroner, Dr Sammarco (who is female, btw), did publicly contradict the parents on these points, saying there was no clear evidence of torture, that Otto's teeth appeared fine, and that the cause of the scar on his foot was uncertain. However, the coroner herself was later contradicted by Warmbier's private dentists, who testified during the federal court case that Otto's teeth were bent backwards. The WP article  mentions these differences of opinion (appropriately, IMO) in accordance with WP:Conflicting Sources. Muzilon (talk) 04:21, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * "They also claimed their son's body showed signs of torture, such as "rearranged" teeth, and disfigured hands and feet."
 * First of all that is wrong quoting because they definitely say his teeth looked like they had been rearranged with a hammer. You are quoting "rearranged" out of context, so change it or I will.Second you ought to be citing the NYT not just that interview which does not contain all the quotes from the parents you are using. You misrepresent Dr Sammarco, because she expressed no opinion as to whether he was tortured by merely reporting  an absence of evidence for torture. More pertinently, the parents insisted he was kidnapped and tortured. You might as well cite a legal expert saying he was not kidnapped as a pathologist saying he was not tortured. It's slant and seems to be more agaimnst sensationalist news headlines than what the parents said. The parents are saying that his treatment by north Korea led to him being in a state that shocked them. That his feet and hands were deformed due to his coma, and his tooth damage was likely sustained during an emergency intubation is not contradicting the parents' complaint. Having watched the interview and read quotes in the NYT it is clear to me they are complaining about him being in a coma as a result of the maltreatment amounting to torture that  he received. According to UN definition, torture is not necessarily physical it can be psychological.Overagainst (talk) 00:59, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, I did not add that particular sentence to the article, so please don't blame me for it. In fact, another editor has deleted it already as "unsourced", probably in response to your comments. Strictly speaking, the parents did not specify whether they meant physical or psychological torture, although when they said Otto had a scar on his foot and his teeth "looked like they had taken a pair of pliers and rearranged them" (emphasis added; and not a "hammer", btw), it is understandable that many people – including Trump, apparently – inferred the parents meant physical torture. According to the WaPo, Dr Sammarco said "I'm not denying that he was tortured... I don’t know that he was tortured or not tortured." Presumably Sammarco was referring to physical torture, since her post-mortem would not have been able to verify psychological torture. Your speculation that the teeth damage was caused by intubation is plausible, but the federal court judgment apparently favored the view that it was the result of physical torture by Otto's N. Korean jailers. Muzilon (talk) 02:37, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The court judgment was a default judgment. The Warmbiers could not lose.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:21, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Hotel's CCTV footage
I note you've removed the paragraph describing the hotel's security camera footage of the shadowy figure removing the poster from the wall. As the video attracted a fair amount of media commentary (with some of Warmbier's travel companions even suggesting it was faked), I think it should rate a mention. Muzilon (talk) 01:16, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This was discussed in 2017. The text I removed was simply a description of the footage that was released by KCNA, not the footage that was used in the trial. There was no commentary. This is simply misleading, as it suggests that's all the footage that was available.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:33, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I have restored a mention of the KCNA footage, along with further information about the footage used in the trial.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:31, 29 April 2021 (UTC)