Talk:Our Lady and the English Martyrs Church

Bells
The tenor is certianly not the heaviest in the country, York Minster, [St Paul's http://dove.cccbr.org.uk/detail.php?searchString=London%2C+S+Paul%5C%27s+Cath&Submit=++Go++&DoveID=LONDON00SP], Liverpool (Anglican) Cathedral and Exeter Cathedral (at least) are considerably heavier (see for a list in descending order of weight). OLEM may well be the heaviest ring in an RC church in the UK. David Underdown (talk) 16:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, apparently Buckfast Abbey is the heaviest ring in an RC church David Underdown (talk) 16:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Was my source out of date, misguided or just plain wrong? OrangeDog  (τ • ε) 19:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting question. Looking a the casting dates of the various bells, at the time OLEM's bells were cast they would have been in the heaviest in an RC church in England and Wales.  Those in Cork and Thurlow are heavier and older, and at the time were in the UK, since it would predate Irish independence.  So possibly it over-generalised the original claim, they would never have been the heaviest in the country as a whole anyway, and also not checked laster developments in other RC churches.  David Underdown (talk) 11:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Commons pics
I'll replace the existing picture from Hills road with one of these. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:43, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

=Name= According to olem.org.uk, the correct name is Our Lady of The Assumption and The English Martyrs. While the abbreviation OLEM (for Our Lady of English Martyrs) is well attributed, I cannot quickly find reliable sources for alternate names. The article is going to need some cleanup (and probably a move), as it uses various other versions of the name. OrangeDog  (τ • ε) 16:21, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

The ancient statue
I have problems with your recent edit to the Ancient statue section: I have located the RCHME source which Wilkins would have used. This says "mid 16th century" – we should use this date and cite this source directly.
 * 1) Your text says the Royal Commission on Historical Monuments date it as "late-15th-century", but the source you cite does not mention the Royal Commission.
 * 2) By changing "mid-16th century" to "late-15th-century" you have preferred a 1948 source (Victoria County History) to a 1985 source (Wilkins). When sources are of broadly similar academic repute we should prefer the more recent source. We should not discount Wilkins merely because it is not available online.

Where we're here, I'm unhappy with the description "ancient statue", as a 15th or 16th century artwork would not normally be described as ancient. The ancient history article says that this period in European history ended in around 450 to 500. I propose changing the section heading to 'Renaissance statue' - the renaissance article includes this period. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:28, 25 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with your corrections to my edit. The general supposition seems to be that the surviving statue was the Our Lady of Grace statue at Cambridge Blackfriars. The VCH citation has that in 1538, "Hilsey sent Gregory Dodds to Cromwell with the request that he might remove the image of Our Lady of Grace from the people's sight" which is a dfferent emphasis to our current "Thomas Cromwell ordered to be removed", presumably derived from Wilkins. Nedrutland (talk) 15:21, 25 March 2022 (UTC)


 * presumably these are the John Hilsey and Gregory Dodds for whom we have articles. In my view adding their names here would be excessive, mainly because it is uncertain that the OLEM statue is the one that was removed from the Blackfriars priory. The important point is that the Blackfriars statue was removed from the priory on Cromwell's orders; Hilsey and Dodds were Cromwell's agents. We might use these sources to expand the Cambridge Blackfriars, John Hilsey and Gregory Dodds articles. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:05, 25 March 2022 (UTC)