Talk:Outer darkness

Outer Darkness
Part of an ongoing conversation:

Sorry about my recent rants about Outer Darkness but am curious if what I'm saying makes sense to you. It is a hard thing to explain. It's basically the name differences, not a shift in concepts. B seems to be busy, and I was hoping to get some feedback from him on how to write/word the issue.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my asinine doctrinal issues. I know I'm more of a stickler than most, and I know I don't have a clue on most of the real issues. All I know is that many things we hold to as absolutes are speculation - not that they are wrong, just speculative. Visorstuff 20:20, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * The current text of the Outer Darkness article makes sense to me and it lines up with what I've always understood. Perhaps we could add links to Celestial, Terrestial and Telestial Kingdoms in parantheses after "...and continue on to a Kingdom of God," but since no articles exist for them yet, there's really no point (right now).


 * The only thing I think we don't really sync up on right now is eternal progression. My view has been, after one dies, one goes to Spirit Prison or Paradise, depending on righteousness/baptimal state. In Prison (if one accepts the Gospel), one may pass on to Paradise if one's work is done for them (hence all the work we do in the temples). SPrison is not necessarily an unpleasant place (we really don't know AFAIK), but it's not as nice as SParadise.


 * My understanding was that SoPs would go to Outer Darkness after the Final Judgement. While awaiting judgement, they would be in Spirit Prison. However, this is not a big deal to me and I'm willing to accept whatever change you feel is correct. You seem to have a much better grasp on the scriptures than I do&mdash;I really haven't been reading them as much as I should lately (two conflicting commandments: have children, read your scriptures...). &mdash;Frecklefoot 20:49, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)

K-you can delete this after you read it. I don't mean to put so much on your page.

Our understandings are the same as far as eternal progression (and the process), however, I am using the scriptural terms and you are using the "common mormon markup language." Let me try this in bullets, cause I really want you to understand where I'm coming from on this. Again, the idea is the same, just different names that what you hear in sunday school. However, what I use are the scriptural names.


 * When you die you go to the spirit world. Which has two parts. The righteous go to a good place, the unrighteous to to a bad one. (I think we agree on this)
 * If you recieve the gospel while in the bad place you can go to the good place so to speak. No word on if the division is geographical or not (I think we agree on this).
 * According to D&C 138, the whole post-mortal spirit world is also called Spirit Prison (same place, just another name). It is called this because we don't have bodies. It is a good place. We just feel in bondage because we don't have bodies. The dead captive will arise and be made free at the resurrection. (138: 16 "the bands of death", 138:50 "looked on their long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage," 138:29 Christ went to prison, but only to the unrighteous to organize missionary work). (we differ on the correct name of this place).
 * The good place in the spirit world (or spirit prison) is called paradise (Alma 40:13) (we differ on the correct name of this place).
 * Christ went to the spirit world or spirit prison (see 1 peter 3&4, 138:29), not to teach the wicked (the bad division), in "prison" (the whole post mortal spirit world), but to organize the righteous (paradise) in "prison" (the whole post mortal spirit world) to teach the gospel to those in the bad part of the spirit world (D&C 138).
 * The bad place in the spirit world (or spirit prison) is called outer darkness (Alma 40:13)
 * Alma taught that when you die you go to paradise or outer darkness (Alma 40:13)
 * At the time of the final judgement, all will be resurrected (whether in the first or second resurrections)
 * All will be assigned to various kingdoms of glory (celestial, terrestrial, telestial), except the sons of perdition.
 * Sons of perdition go to a really bad place that most Mormons call "outer darkness." Although used by Mormons, the place is not named this. No one knows why they call it that. Nowhere in scripture or correlated materials is the words "outer darkness" used to discuss where the sons of perdition go. How this started, we don't know. One thing is for user - the term has been assigned a different connotation than it was meant or that was revealed, at it's never made it out of our vocabulary and will continue to stay a misconception for many more years.
 * Joseph Smith said the place where sons of perdition go is called Gnolom.

Here are the mormon markup terms and the correct, scriptural terms

Common Mormon Markup Language=Scriptural term(s)
 * Spririt World = Spirit World or Spirit Prison (same place)
 * Paradise = Paradise
 * Spirit Prison = Outer Darkness or Hell (same place)
 * Outer Darkness = Everlasting punishment (D&C 76:44), Gnolom, Gnolaum.

In summary, my concept is the same as what you refer to as paradise or prison, however, I am using the correct scriptural terms. The chart we draw and the progression is the same, just different names. As stated on another page, according to church publications, one of the reasons why Section 138 was added to the D&C was to clarify that the post mortal spirit world is called spirit prison and to fix the "naming" misnomer.

References:  Mormon Doctrine p551 for "Post-mortal Spirit World" is the same as "Spirit Prision" correlation. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p361, Mormon Doctrine p316 for Joseph Smith saying Gnolom is where sons of perdition go. He did not use the words "outer darkness"

Alma 40:11-14 11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.

12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be dweeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.

14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery dindignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this estate, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

D&C 76:25-38 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall anot be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

D&C 138: 28-30, 50-51 28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

50 For the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Visorstuff (talk • contribs) 22:25, 21 November 2003

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 * Just FYI, I'm pretty sure spirit prison, in LDS theology, is NOT the same as outer darkness- spirit paradise and prison are temporary "waiting places", but spirits will ultimately go to either the celestial, terrestial, or telestial kingdoms, or go to outer darkness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs) 08:19, 29 January 2009\\69.169.140.228
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_in_Christian_beliefs#Latter-day_Saints explains gives a summary of that 58.6.129.115 (talk) 22:42, 25 December 2011 (UTC)


 * From what I understand, this article still has serious factual errors. The idea that outer darkness can be interpreted as the place for sons of perdition has no foundation in scripture or official church teachings. The only reference in the last 40 years from general conference that I find that could be so construed is a talk by Marion G. Romney in 1981, the Perfect Law of Liberty -- and being just one time in 40 years, I can't take that as a baseline. I stay with "outer darkness" strictly as a place in the postmortal spirit world, and I want to rewrite the article based on the word's intended meaning rather than the traditional meaning it´s inherited, but I won't do it without community-built consensus. Slb1900 (talk) 02:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. I think it's currently very ambiguous in the LDS Church; from what I can see, both meanings are used. There are certainly current LDS sources that can be interpreted to mean that outer darkness is the place where the sons of perdition go. For example, see Gospel Principles, chapter 46: The Final Judgment. It discusses the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial Kingdoms in turn, and then has a section on Outer Darkness. It says about the people who go there, "There is no forgiveness for them, for they denied the Holy Spirit after having received it. They will not have a kingdom of glory. They will live in eternal darkness, torment, and misery with Satan and his angels forever." To me, this clearly sounds like it's talking about sons of perdition, and not the (temporary) post-mortal spirit world. Note, however, that the scriptural sources used in the section are verses from D&C 76, so it's open to argument that Gospel Principles has got it wrong if one interprets section 76 in a certain way. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:04, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Further source: The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles: chapter 53: "Outer darkness is the habitation of those 'angels which kept not their first estate' but rebelled against God and joined forces with Lucifer. Here they will be joined by sons of perdition". (I think that one is pretty unambiguous.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Man, there are some things even correlation can't catch. I guess I can't say it's right or wrong then. Thanks for the sources, I'll leave the article as is. Slb1900 (talk) 04:54, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I know that as "evidence", this is poor, but check out the illustration on p. 35 of the April 2014 Liahona. Just saw this today. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:11, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Protestantism header
I must admit to confusion and a bit of ire that an entire section, which should be fairly significant, is relegated to a single sentence, and one that is 80% devoted to the controversial views of a few that are quite against the traditionally accepted protestant view. --Thistledowne (talk) 17:07, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's still waiting for an editor with sources.

OR removed
Sorry to whoever added it, but this was removed for being both OR and incorrect:
 * "Translated literally, the Greek text of Matthew reads "into the darkness, the outer", with a definite article before both the noun and the adjective. For this reason, the New International Version translates this text as "outside, into the darkness".

Not true ἐκβληθήσονται εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον / ἐκβάλετε εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον / εἰς τὸ σκότος τὸ ἐξώτερον completely standard Greek for "outer adj. darkness def. noun" in all 3 cases.

This was removed for being both OR
 * The best interpretation of the biblical phraseology "outer darkness" carries with it echoes of the darkness of the plagues of Egypt and the covenant curses promised to Israel in the Mosaic Covenant. These foreshadow the darkness that covers the land at the death of Christ. It is clearly a picture of Divine justice. God the Father sends the covenant curses on God the Son at Calvary. Jesus, by dying for those who will believe in Him, endures the wrath of God that unconverted sinners will get for all eternity. It is for this reason that hell is called "the outer darkness." In Hell men will be cast away from the light of the presence of God. The language of "outer darkness" is metaphorical according to this interpretation.
 * Another interpretation is that outer darkness refers to a literal place away from all physical light. When God creates the new heavens and the new earth, there will be no sun because God Himself will be the light. Those who are in outer darkness will be so far away from God that the physical light of God will not reach them. They will be in a place so far from God that it is utterly dark. In the same way, a black hole is so far from the light of sun and stars that it is completely dark. This place of outer darkness will be filled with the sound of weeping and the grinding of teeth, sounds made by those suffering intense pain and torture.
 * If we consider the length of our universe, plus the millions of galaxies, and the whole of all physical space that exists, we can imagine a place so far from our earth, so removed from light, out in the farthest reaches of space, which is called "outer darkness."

Hey ho. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:03, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Hi
By 223.229.196.199 (talk) 11:28, 11 September 2022 (UTC)