Talk:Outlander (TV series)/Archive 1

American or British?
I just reverted a use of UK English because the article has been established with American English and date format. But I just realized that the production is complicated and we should establish which is correct ... Starz and Sony and Gabaldon are American, but Left Bank is British, so ... ? &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 04:02, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Since this comment, we've established that this is a British-American co-production. I tagged this article (and List of Outlander episodes) with Use British English earlier today because these articles seem to have evolved that way, but I also know that they are firmly established with American (mdy) date format. Is it confusing/bad to have such a disparity, or can language and date format be considered separately?— TAnthonyTalk 21:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * What's the exact reason for British English, because it primarily takes place in Scotland, or? It's described as a co-production, though I'm wondering why. The series is produced by Sony Pictures Television (an American company) made for Starz (an American cable network) based on novels by an American author. I understand it's co-produced by British production company Left Bank Pictures, but that company is owned by Sony. I've always felt at the end of the day, the copyright holder of a work should determine country of origin; which in this case, is Sony Pictures Television. I can understand using British English for plot summaries, but the main article should stay as is. I don't see how it improves anything. Date formatting has been MDY in this article for years. Drovethrughosts (talk) 18:50, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree; everything was originally in American English, but I looked up at some point and noticed that the article was predominantly in British English. That is, I noticed it in the plot section, and I don't know how many affected words there may be in the rest of the article, but I would think we should be consistent. It makes more sense to me, if we are keeping the MDY date format, to change back to American English.— TAnthonyTalk 20:11, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Looking at the MOS, we are specifically advised against considering national 'ownership' of articles or changing language between formats unless there are "strong national ties" to one particular English-speaking country. This article concerns a co-production with more American involvement on the production side but with a mostly British cast and a story mostly set in Britain, so I cannot see that "strong ties" to a single country applies.  The author of the original book is American, but for articles about books (which this isn't) the MOS directs to the style of English used by the author, rather than their nationality, and her books are not consistent ('labor', 'realized' and 'honor' but 'colour' and 'travelled').  So we are left with MOS:RETAIN.  I did edit the dates to match the English as per MOS:ARTCON but this was reverted. MapReader (talk) 06:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * In looking back at the edit history, a few specific edits actually changed several instances of US English to British over time and after the fact, so I'm restoring these. This will keep the English and date formats as American in this article. List of Outlander episodes seems to have been written more natively in UK English so I'm leaving that alone, unless research determines otherwise. In a related subject, I'm not clear whether "redcoats" should be capitalized or not (like "stormtroopers"); this article and List of Outlander characters do capitalize, but the episode list does not. The article Red coat (military uniform) is inconsistent and does not really use the term in the same context.— TAnthonyTalk 18:25, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Making this change unilaterally without concluding this discussion here is poor editing, IMO. MOS:RETAIN is about the current state of the article - not its older versions - and as you said yourself "the article was predominantly in British English".  Given that there clearly isn't a strong tie to any single country, I don't see you had any reasonable basis for making this change?  Really we should just revert back to the earlier version, unless you can justify your edit?  And redcoats is definitely lower case! The only reason there is a capital in the article you pointed to is because 'R' is the first letter of the title!  MapReader (talk) 18:29, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Which part of MOS:CAPS are you relying upon for your capitalisation?? MapReader (talk) 18:39, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * As you can see from when this conversation started, the article has historically been in American English. I did say recently that it was now "predominantly in British English" and tagged it as such, but that was before I noticed that the change (of only a handful of words, by the way) had been made relatively recently and unannounced in basically a violation of MOS:RETAIN. I didn't see an issue with being bold and restoring. Thanks for changing the language to nullify the difference though! As far as redcoats go, I am using the topic article for guidance, and I understand not to go by the lead sentence. But that article is discussing the uniform itself, and while some uses of the word as a term for the soldiers are clearly lowercase, the section Red coat (military uniform) confuses the issue. I think the capitalization in this and related articles have also been influenced by the sources, which may be doing it improperly as well.— TAnthonyTalk 18:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC)


 * It isn't a formal title or a proper name, but a description or epithet (complimentary or abusive varying by context) that clearly should start with lower case, as it does in the section of the WP article that describes the origin of the term. You are right that the next section about the American revolution goes on to give the term a capital letter, but not for any good reason (either by grammar or WP guideline) AFAICS.   MapReader (talk) 20:13, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Jamie's name
OK my bad, it slipped my mind that Jamie's Alexis Carrington Colby Dexter Rowan-sized name was established in that episode but ... I just think it looks silly and trivial. Maybe it's too much time spent in the past cleaning up soap opera character articles which are always bursting with characters' middle names and such trivia. Anyway, what about calling him James "Jamie" MacKenzie Fraser and then putting the full thing in a footnote with the source? &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 16:15, 2 February 2015


 * I think that his full name is important because he keeps using pieces of it as aliases in the book series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shadagee (talk • contribs)


 * OK, but as I said, the full name is noted in a footnote for all who are interested. And this article is about the TV series.— TAnthonyTalk 23:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Episode descriptions
Are some of the episode descriptions not a little spoilery? Having watched "The Watch", I remember that the ending (and part of the episode twist) is Jaime being captured by redcoats. HaniiPuppy (talk) 00:30, 13 May 2015 (UTC)


 * See WP:SPOILER, there is currently no restriction on plot details or use of warnings. There is an expectation on the part of the reader looking at a "plot summary" that plot details will be there. &mdash; TAnthonyTalk 01:44, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Main cast
I can't think of any other show (maybe besides House of Cards) which has somewhat of an indefinable list who is a series regular or not or who is a main character. Beyond the main three (Balfe, Heughan and Menzies), the main cast (opening credits billing) is always changing. The current list of actors listed in the infobox doesn't match the list of "main" actors listed in the cast section. For example, despite being listed under "recurring", Simon Callow, Laura Donnelly, Steven Cree, Dominique Pinon, and Frances de la Tour have all received opening credits billing when they appear; and while listed under "main", Claire Sermonne, does not receive opening credits billing, despite having a notable role. Several of the actors who receive opening credits billing just appear in a few episodes in a season, such as Gary Lewis, Lotte Verbeek, Steven Cree, Douglas Henshall or Simon Callow who received opening credits billing for his single appearance in season 1 (though is more of a main character in season 2). Any thoughts, opinions, on regards to handle this? Drovethrughosts (talk) 21:05, 9 May 2016 (UTC)


 * You make a good point. I would think that the easiest way to manage it would be that anyone with an opening credit should be in Main cast, even if not every episode. This is at least a clear-cut differentiation.— TAnthonyTalk 22:17, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Tense corrections
Given that the second season just finished airing, I updated the tense of the filming section to reflect that. SpiritedMichelle (talk) 04:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Ethnonyms
I've noticed that this article conflates Scottish Gaels (aka "Highlanders") with "Scotsmen" and "Jacobites". These three categories are NOT interchangeable, as reading the Wikipedia articles Jacobite Uprising of 1745 and Gaels will reveal. Gaels and Lowlanders thought of each other as separate ethnic groups and both of them were split in terms of supporting the Jacobites. For example, Clan Sutherland and Clan Campbell supported King George, despite being thoroughly Gaelic, while some Lowlanders, such as the Earl of Perth supported the Jacobites.Alázhlis (talk) 10:17, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
 * American novels, American production, American audience... They like a nice black and white version of Scottish history over there. To be fair, some Scots and even English do think of the Jacobite risings as simple Scottish/English conflicts, as that fits the nationalist agenda better. --Ef80 (talk) 16:41, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

trigger warning section request, or similar
can someone do a trigger warnings section? I was shocked nobody warned me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.212.54.2 (talk) 00:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)


 * As a general rule, Wikipedia doesn't do warnings - not for spoilers, graphic content or whatever. See WP:NDA. --ChiveFungi (talk) 01:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

David Cameron Prime Minister Of Great Briton and his banning this program in Scotland?
User:TAnthony Is not a happy bunny, He feels my mentioning the fact that the Prime Minister of the UK is reported widely as interfering in the editorial freedom of Sony he feels that I am adding undue weight to this issue and that I am adding statements which are not directly supported by reliable sources. The background is that Wikileaks in a serious of leaked emails from Sony published an email from Keith E. Weaver, executive vice president at Sony Pictures Entertainment, which produces Outlander, in this email Keith discusses a meeting with the Prime Minister, Mr Weaver writes to other Sony executives: "Your meeting with Prime Minister Cameron on Monday will likely focus on our overall investment in the U.K. - with special emphasis on the jobs created by Tommy Cooper [the ITV show], the importance of Outlander (i.e., particularly vis-a-vis the political issues in the U.K. as Scotland contemplates detachment this Fall), and the growth of our channels business..."

So my question's are; First given the import of having The prime Minister of a country personally interfere with the broadcasting decisions worthy of mention? Second, given that these emails have been published worldwide and repeated in every newspaper in my country is this not now a reliable source. For TAnthonyes objections to stand we have to say that governmental interference should never be mentioned, and that when this program has reached a point of notoriety with my fellow countrymen that this is irrelevant as the complainer can't see the relevance from his lofty position in Canada. I would argue that if indeed this is the position then it calls into question the collaborative ethos of Wikipedia, and gives precedence to cultural insensitivity.

Even given the argument above, is it not precisely relevant that a program that is about the fight for independence in my county, sill has traction today. and would you the reader not find that an interesting point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wamac (talk • contribs) 14:44, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I would agree that the timing of its screening being altered in the UK, apparently for political reasons, would be worthy of a (brief) mention. It would need supporting with an appropriate reliable citation, and be written in neutral and encyclopaedic language (words like "interestingly" aren't such!) MapReader (talk) 14:55, 24 July 2018 (UTC)


 * This situation is already mentioned in the section Outlander (TV series):
 * "In April 2015, The Herald reported that emails leaked in the Sony Pictures Entertainment hack suggested that the broadcast delay in the UK may have been due to sensitivity about the September 2014 Scottish independence referendum.""


 * The Herald reports that the leaked emails indicated a meeting had occurred between producers and the PM; The Herald then suggests that the delay was a result of this meeting, based on comments/speculation from an unnamed "insider". I believe the current text of the article adequately reflects what the source actually says. My major objection was your adding this tidbit to the lead of the article, which I believe puts undue weight on it in this context. Further, in your edit you actually wrote that:
 * "This series was mentioned in leaks by the then prime minister of the UK David Cameron, where he suggested to Sony Pictures that the release not include the UK due to the upcoming Scottish independence referendum. As a result of this unique intervention it was not shown in Scotland till after the referendum.""


 * The sources in this article a) do not assert that Cameron actually suggested that, or b) do not establish that the delay was a "result of this unique intervention", and you have not provided a source that does assert these items as facts. Finally, you added the unsourced statement "British reception divided along those newspapers who make up some 98% of Scotland Press who supported the Unionist cause in the referendum". Thanks.— TAnthonyTalk 18:02, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Deletion of term
I deleted an insulting quote that contained the racist term 'heuchter-teuchter' and it was re-instated as it wa s adirect quote. Is it therefore wikipedia policy to include stuff like this and if a quote existed that suggested that outlander was to teuchters what roots was to coons, would it therefore merit inclusion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.169.252 (talk) 03:15, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Take a look at Offensive material, which establishes that Wikipedia is not censored and potentially offensive material is acceptable if handled in an encyclopedic manner. Check out the original title of Agatha Christie's And Then There Were None. I can take a look at the article and see if the offending phrase is superfluous, but it should not be removed for the simple reason that it could offend someone. I am not familiar with the term, but the quote is from a review in a reputable publication so I find it hard to believe the term could be universally offensive.— TAnthonyTalk 04:23, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
 * More to the point, WP's own page on (one element of) the term states that, whilst it can be seen as offensive, it is often seen as amusing. It does derive from the cultural environment of the serial itself and therefore appears relevant. Further, the term that you suggest is comparable isn't one that a reputable UK newspaper would, I suggest, ever use in a film review, and so isn't an equivalent comparison. If however you retain a genuine concern that the term is unacceptably offensive, the place to start would be on the talk page of that article.  It is also best advice to register a WP account if you want to participate in talk and be taken seriously.  MapReader (talk) 10:14, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Opening sequence credit table
These tables are useful as reference when the credits need to be updated or reviewed (even for when individual pages for the seasons will be created).

The cast is listed according to the official credit order of each episode's opening sequence.

New cast members joining a season are indicated in bold. Featured cast members appearing in a single episode per season are in italics. New cast members to the series are indicated in bold in the cast list starting with season 2.

Season 1
Main Season 1


 * 1) Caitriona Balfe
 * 2) Sam Heughan
 * 3) Tobias Menzies
 * 4) Graham McTavish
 * 5) Duncan Lacroix
 * 6) Grant O'Rourke
 * 7) Stephen Walters
 * 8) Gary Lewis
 * 9) Lotte Verbeek
 * 10) Bill Paterson
 * 11) Simon Callow
 * 12) Laura Donnelly
 * 13) Douglas Henshall
 * 14) Steven Cree

Season 2
Main Season 2


 * 1) Caitriona Balfe
 * 2) Sam Heughan
 * 3) Tobias Menzies
 * 4) Duncan Lacroix
 * 5) Stanley Weber
 * 6) Andrew Gower
 * 7) Rosie Day
 * 8) Dominique Pinon
 * 9) Simon Callow
 * 10) Frances de la Tour
 * 11) Gary Lewis
 * 12) Nell Hudson
 * 13) Laura Donnelly
 * 14) Steven Cree
 * 15) Clive Russell
 * 16) Graham McTavish
 * 17) Stephen Walters
 * 18) Grant O'Rourke
 * 19) Lotte Verbeek
 * 20) Richard Rankin
 * 21) Sophie Skelton

Season 3
Main Season 3


 * 1) Caitriona Balfe
 * 2) Sam Heughan
 * 3) Tobias Menzies
 * 4) Duncan Lacroix
 * 5) Laura Donnelly
 * 6) Steven Cree
 * 7) Andrew Gower
 * 8) Grant O'Rourke
 * 9) Sophie Skelton
 * 10) David Berry
 * 11) Richard Rankin
 * 12) John Bell
 * 13) '''César Domboy
 * 14) Lauren Lyle
 * 15) Nell Hudson
 * 16) Bill Paterson
 * 17) Richard Dillane
 * 18) Lotte Verbeek

Season 4
Main Season 4


 * 1) Caitriona Balfe
 * 2) Sam Heughan
 * 3) John Bell
 * 4) Edward Speleers
 * 5) César Domboy
 * 6) Lauren Lyle
 * 7) Maria Doyle Kennedy
 * 8) Colin McFarlane
 * 9) Natalie Simpson
 * 10) Sophie Skelton
 * 11) Richard Rankin
 * 12) Tantoo Cardinal
 * 13) Duncan Lacroix
 * 14) David Berry
 * 15) Caitlin O'Ryan
 * 16) Steven Cree
 * 17) Nell Hudson
 * 18) Tobias Menzies
 * 19) Braeden Clarke
 * 20) Gregory Dominic Odjig
 * 21) Billy Boyd
 * 22) Carmen Moore
 * 23) Tom Jackson
 * 24) Yan Tual
 * 25) Sera-Lys McArthur

Season 5
Main Season 5


 * 1) Catriona Balfe
 * 2) Sam Heughan
 * 3) Sophie Skelton
 * 4) Richard Rankin
 * 5) Maria Doyle Kennedy
 * 6) Duncan Lacroix
 * 7) David Berry
 * 8) César Domboy
 * 9) Lauren Lyle
 * 10) Colin McFarlane
 * 11) Caitlin O'Ryan
 * 12) Edward Speleers
 * 13) Billy Boyd
 * 14) Chris Larkin
 * 15) Ned Dennehy
 * 16) Graham McTavish
 * 17) John Bell


 * Notes

Created by --TheVampire (talk) 16:24, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Updated by --TheVampire (talk) 14:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Old discussion (related to older version of the tables which did not comply with the MOS)

 * This is all well and good, but your "rule" that "individually credited actors take precedence over the others even if they do not appear in the same episode together. The rest of the order is determined by the chronological order AND the order used in the first episode in which two actors appear together" is not really a thing. Please don't invent your own intricate rules and demand that others follow them. MOS:TVCAST specifically says The cast listing should be ordered according to the original broadcast credits, with new cast members being added to the end of the list. So when someone is credited, they go to the end of the cast list. If someone supersedes them in order in a later episode, we do not rearrange, we simply add the new cast member to the end. I can appreciate the work you put into tracking the opening credits but there is a reason this is not a regular practice: it's an endless and ultimately futile exercise. MOS:TVCAST was crafted to avoid the many conflicting opinions about how a cast list should be formatted. You are taking it to a dare-I-say trivial extreme. Thanks.— TAnthonyTalk 15:11, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
 * In that case, the entire list should be re arranged according to the "first credited, first listed" convention. My only intention was to respect the credit order given by producers.--TheVampire (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
 * In that case, it would be as follows: Catriona Balfe, Sam Heughan, Tobias Menzies, Graham McTavish, Duncan Lacroix, Grant O'Rourke, Stephen Walters, Gary Lewis, Lotte Verbeek, Bill Paterson, Simon Callow, Laura Donnelly, Douglas Henshall, Steven Cree, Stanley Weber, Andrew Gower, Rosie Day, Dominique Pinon, Frances de la Tour, Nell Hudson, Clive Russell, Richard Rankin, Sophie Skelton, David Berry, John Bell, César Domboy, Lauren Lyle, Richard Dillane, Edward Speelers, Maria Doyle Kennedy, Colin McFarlane, Natalie Simpson, Tantoo Cardinal, Caitlin O'Ryan, Braeden Clarke, Gregory Dominic Odjig, Billy Boyd.--TheVampire (talk) 17:44, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Season 5 plot summary
I re-added the season 5 plot summary again. Please do not remove it without dicussing here your reasons for doing so.69.119.165.180 (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Two different editors have explained via edit summary that we removed it because it was not written to our standards. A season plot summary should be concise and represent an overview of the season's story arc, not just be a list of every interesting plot point. There are also perspective issues like the references to "side stories" and some editorializing. Thanks.— TAnthonyTalk 01:56, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The main page plot summary is supposed to be 100 words, in the expectation that the episodes page will have episode summaries, as for the preceding series. I recently deleted the summaries that had been edited in for series five, as these were copyright cut and paste from another source.  Doubtless someone will soon map out episode summaries for this season, so the main page description should be a short one just setting the scene and summarising the plot arc for the whole season. MapReader (talk) 05:40, 15 April 2020 (UTC)