Talk:Outside (jazz)

Merger without consensus
Why did you merge the article side-slipping with this article without asking for consensus?BassHistory (talk) 00:55, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Is there a reason not to? Hyacinth (talk) 16:04, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose merger, as there is no consensus to merge the pages.BassHistory (talk) 23:03, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Not all outside playing is side-slipping
See page 16 of this dissertation on Woody Shaw:
 * http://nickwalters.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dissertationwoody.docx
 * https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:P3sdgK0Pz-4J:nickwalters.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dissertationwoody.docx+%22playing+outside%22+jazz+oxford&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESg7BoxkCY46mrfGkI00FXLXShvhzHHXXfn_LHCf1uCghQdzvl_dPbHczWRLNB7K7vkU5JYv6i97uYErG1wc0Wk8-XgQ5HHScWLKeiU6GFPR4iiyfjsZtioJ4ojbVwJbtHNzDUOq&sig=AHIEtbTvE45cf-SR-GvflfbcjdfSkaS5sw

"In Woody’s case, the term playing ‘outside’ generally refers to bitonality – that is, Woody plays strongly diatonic material but in a different key to the underlying harmony of the piece. One of the ways he does this is by the classic technique of ‘side-slipping’." In other words, "side-slipping" is only one of the techniques that jazz players use to play outside when improvising. This article should reflect that distinction.BassHistory (talk) 07:53, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * http://books.google.com/books?id=QcewFVEyG6oC&pg=PA271&lpg=PA271&dq=%22playing+outside%22+coltrane&source=bl&ots=OKBvHyGSRz&sig=CCUf8Bm1ymClpMEvVTUoSWXEi1c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8WInUPfzI42e6gHa7IHwCw&ved=0CFIQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=outside&f=false

"outside playing - The jazz technique of playing notes that depart from the chords of a given piece"

The current Wikipedia article Outside (jazz) is clearly at odds with the standard textbook definition at this point.BassHistory (talk) 08:07, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * What should be done? Hyacinth (talk) 22:11, 12 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The lede should be changed to represent the more broad textbook definition. Side-stepping should just be one section, or else it should be its own page. Another technique for outside playing is to superimpose Coltrane changes for example, which has its own page. I vote for keeping side-stepping within Outside (jazz), as it is conceptually basic enough to summarize in a few sentences. Also, there probably aren't too many academic sources for it, at least enough to warrant an entire page.BassHistory (talk) 00:51, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Here is a dissertation on David Liebman that mentions side-slipping. The definition is different than the one give in this article, and makes more sense as to how I understand it. Basically, side-slipping or side-stepping is to play on a scale a half-step above or below the current scale/mode.BassHistory (talk) 01:26, 28 January 2014 (UTC)