Talk:Outsider art/Archive 1

Talk
It seems to me that the "Art Brut" entry should probably be absorbed into the "Outsider art" entry. I've just dropped in, so I don't want to do that unilaterally. Any opinions?--BTfromLA 18:32, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Is Thym a notable outsider artist?
I'm tempted to delete the listing of Thym among outsider artists--he's certainly an interesting figure, and in some respects related to the concerns of outsider art, but he is from an earlier century and primarily a writer. In other words, he isn't really established as a figure in the same category with Darger, Wolfli, Gill, etc. Any thoughts? --BTfromLA 19:04, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. In general, I think the section should be renamed "Notable Outsider artists" and should only include the absolute cream of the crop, along with a link to the category. I dont think we want it to become too bloated with every and any outsider artist that has an article, it should just direct people unfamiliar with outsider art to the most notable figures with the best developed pages. Thym is interesting but I dont think he belongs--Clngre 20:31, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

Great Apes as Outsider Artists?
I was reading about outsider art for pretty much the first time just now and I just kept thinking about the paintings made by great apes such as Michael (a gorilla, Koko's buddy) or Fauna Foundation chimpanzees. Could they or are they currently considered as "outsider artists?" The label does seem to fit, as I doubt these painters have been much influenced by mainstream art... --bad_leprechaun 04:23, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguating Art Brut the band
If there's a need to offer a link to the band Art Brut, please create a seperate disambiguation page for the term "Art Brut," which is now redirected here. While a discussion of Art Brut is included on the Outsider Art page, it is not correct to say that "this article is about the Art Brut movement." BTfromLA 14:47, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Please do this yourself if you feel so strongly about it, rather than just removing the link without doing it. Art Brut is a redirect, if it's not just another name for Outsider Art then perhaps it ought not to be a redirect at all?  Morwen - Talk 15:28, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Done. You should have accepted responsibilty for this, though, since you are the one who wanted the change. As to why it was redirected and how Art Brut relates to Outsider Art--did you bother to read even the intro of the article you were editing?  BTfromLA 16:38, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, obviously. When I made that original edit I was uncomfortable with the exact wording, but couldn't think of another way to put it that wouldn't be horribly confusing, and certainly didn't feel confident enough to make Art Brut a redirect.  I'm sure you would have reacted even more hostilely to that.  Explaining the exact relation between the two terms would obviously be too long for a disambiguation note at the top, I was hoping that editors would be tolerant enough to allow a slight glossing for the sake of expediency.  Morwen - Talk 22:34, 26 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, Morwen. Sorry if I came across as hostile. I think we have a satisfactory resolution now, yes? BTfromLA 00:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes. Sorry if you think I over-reacted, perhaps I did - but is quite galling to be accused of adding vanity links... Morwen - Talk 08:45, 27 May 2005 (UTC)


 * That was my mistake, I jumped to that conclusion based on the state of that band article at the time. Started our exchange on a bad foot. My apology. BTfromLA 18:37, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Redirect from Visionary art
All the material has been incorporated except the "see also" of Alex Grey. - brenneman (t) (c)  03:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

That was a silly thing to do... I don't have the time to undo this squashing together of two vaguely related kinds of art, but I did want to say I strongly disagree with this lumping. 64.236.128.14 19:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Art Brut (the band)
There used to be a page here for the British band Art Brut, available via the disambiguation page. Where has it gone now? They are not small in Britain and quite big in Germany (evidence: http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/news/05-09/15.shtml), featured in magazines and their album has been released worldwide. It's just a shame to see a relevant article *vanish* into nothingness. :-/


 * Both the disambiguation page and the Art Brut (band) article are still here. --BTfromLA 05:37, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Aahh thanks :) ... I just am confused when you type in "Art Brut" in the search, it just redirects to Outsider Art. Puzzling!

Any comments on this related article?
Hi folks,

would anyone like to comment on Cosmic ray deflection society which is facing a vote for deletion? Each chapter of the CRDS supports an outsider artist, so I thought some of the people watching this article might also be familiar with the CRDS and be able to attest to its notability. Mamawrites 15:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

List of outsider artists
This list seems to be growing without bound. I'm going to remove all red links, and copy all of the blue links w/o explanatory paragraphs here for further discussion. A list of artists shouldn't be longer than the article, eh? brenneman (t) (c) 21:46, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * List from main page, less red links and duplicated entries -
 * Aloïse Corbaz
 * Scottie Wilson
 * Damian Le Bas
 * August Natterer
 * Carlo Zinelli


 * Good move, removing all those "notable" links. That's what the comprehensive listing page is for.  I think if anybody gets added to the list, we should stick with the format, including a brief description of who they were and what they did, and it should be limited to the few outsider artists who are as widely recognized as the ones already listed.  I'd say that Aloïse Corbaz and August Natterer are legitimate candidates for inclusion on the main page. Damian Le bas is definitely not--not only is he not, as far as I'm aware, particularly well know, anybody who lists Scottie Wilson as a conscious influence seems to me to be outside of the "outsider" category, which is about people producing works for reasons completely apart from the usual dialogue of artists with the history of art.


 * Others who might be worth adding to the main page are Eugene Von Bruenchenhein, Morton Bartlett, Judith Scott and Augustin Lesage. But I think we need to maintain a fairly stringent screen--they must be widely recognized--listed in most of the recent books on the topic--and clearly fit the "outsider" mold (I'd disqualify someone like Howard Finster, for example, as he has strong elements of Folk Art and also became a self-concious "artist" at some point, engaging an art audience).  BTfromLA 21:48, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The concern over the proliferation of outsider artists is interesting and the solution not easy. On the one hand one wants to recognize the new and less known as they do come under the definition but at the same time there is a loyalty to outstanding outsider artists. These days it is probably even hard to list all of the outstanding ones. The only thing I can think of is to utilize some sort of Java Applet that changes the list every time the page loads (there are applets for this) so that in the background out of sight you have a huge list but on the page you have a managable one. I have never looked into the ability to do this on Wikipedia but it may be helpful to do the research. The only truthful way to go without broader inclusion is to re-title the article: "outstanding outsider art" Good luck with the problem just a few thoughts.Conrad Jay Blade 22:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The solution is obvious: don't list any "Outsider artists." If they are notable, they are found in an article. Bus stop 22:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Keel and other marginal "marginals"
I've removed Adam Dario Keel and the image of his work again, on grounds that he is not one of the small handful of the most-recognized outsider artists. In my view, and I believe this is the consensus of editors here, those few are the only ones who should be featured on this page. Please see the other discussions on this talk page about this issue. Keel doesn't even have a Wikipedia stub article about him--the person interested in Keel should start by creating one, and by linking him to the larger list of outsider artists, rather than just asserting that Keel belongs in the canon of outsider artists. Because the "outsider artist" category is potentially so broad--literally thousands of people can be claimed as outsider artists, and there is an economic motivation for people to list "their" outsider here--it is my view that we need to be strict about which artists are cited as examples in this short article, limiting the list to the most widely exhibited and written about--Wolfli, Darger, Gill, etc. This is not to say that Keel is not a legitimate artist, or a legitmate "outsider"--just that his work is not remotely as well known or influential in the field as the other artists mentioned here. It isn't our job to create reputations, only to report on the situation as it exists. BTfromLA 15:22, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Lautréamont?
Would Lautréamont be considered outsider artist?--Sonjaaa 16:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd say no. First, Because Lautreamont was, as far as I know, intending to write work of literary value--a key defining trait of outsider art is that it isn't clear at all that the creator saw what they were doing as "art." The other problem with Lautreamont in this context is that his work was entirely literary (wasn't it?). The "Outsider Art" category, though it admits people who include writing in their work, is generally limited to work that is seen in relation to visual art objects.  There is another, less well established, category of "outsider literature." But Lautreamont, a strange but very sophisticated writer, probably wouldn't be admitted there either.  BTfromLA 07:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

"Axel of the world" - a misspelled translation?
The title, "Axel of the world," is common on the web. However, it seems to be a misspelled translation of the original German Weltachse mit Haase. Please comment!EAS 00:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Nick Blinko--notable enough?
I removed the following addition from the "Notable Outsider Artists" section:


 * Nick Blinko Vocalist/Guitarist for British Anarcho-Punk band Rudimentary Peni. Much of his notable work is featured as artwork for the bands albums, among others such as his peice "Skeleton Series"

He is marketed as an Outsider artist and his work is represented in high-level outsider art collections. The question is whether he rises to the level of notability for Wikipedia's short list. To my knowledge, he is far less recognized than all of the other names on our list, so I vote "cut"--he should be included in the Outsider artists category, but not featured in the main article. But since this listing isn't the usual promotional spam that plagues this article, and I invite arguments to the contrary. In my view, we have to be strict about limiting this list to a few of the best-established figures (at the level of Wolfli, Ramirez and Darger), due to the enormous number of candidates who can claim "outsider" status. BTfromLA 22:41, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Should this article be protected against anon edits?
The article suffers from frequent vanity listings, commercial links and, recently, uncivil edit summaries (e.g., "You need to sodomize yourself with a cattle prod," from user 4.159.11.169). Take a look at the edit history: most of these problems come from anon users--is it time to prohibit anon edits to this article? I vote yes. BTfromLA 16:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Whilst I agree with some of the sentiments expressed above; I find that article somewhat ironic in that the links are almost exclusively art gallery and art journal - no links to sites where there are real artists who are displaying their work independent of these institutions.


 * This restriction imposed on this article is demonstrative of how "the outsider" is ever more outsided, it intellectualises but does not really give us the essence of this art form.


 * It is as if the Art Market and its quasi-intellectualism has muscled out the people who really matter.


 * It may be an idea, therefore, to moderate the entries. 172.207.32.222


 * It's an encyclopedia dude. btw, re: the first post, the article is now protected.  Paul Slocum 20:14, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Art Brut
Since art brut is a pivitol subject in the development of the modern day notion of "outsider art" it would be extremely beneficial and more clear if art brut had its own page rather than redirecting to outsider art. Even though the content of the outsider art article currently indicates otherwise, the redirecting process implies that the two are synonymous.

I move for an independent art brut page which also links to the outsider art page.

69.76.183.210 19:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC) Jessi


 * I suggest that you develop the Art Brut coverage here, first. If it then seems as if a seperate article makes sense (either because you've clarified how the two subjects are very distinct or because the length of the article is becoming unwieldy), then we can spin it off.  If the other article will basically just recapitulate what is in this article, I don't see much value in the change. Do you think that the current article misrepresents Art Brut somehow?  BTfromLA 03:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal
Propose merge from Art extraordinary. The latter is just a synonym already explained in this article, along with material also already covered at Angus McPhee.

The Art extraordinary article was also multiply tagged for various problems - including lack of notability and probable conflict of interest (it was created by User:Artextraordinarytrust) - that remain unaddressed apart from an anon editor removing the tags. Gordonofcartoon 11:42, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks to me that the Art Extraordinary Trust might merit an article--seems to be a real institution that has been the subject of one or two newspaper articles--but the term is not, so far as I know, an accepted synonym for or subcategory of Outsider Art. It looks to me as if this is a name one person is promoting for her gallery in Scotland; evidently that person or someone affiliated with her made these posts.  Unless I see evidence that this term is used beyond that gallery, I'd have to say that the Art Extroardinary article should be deleted, and there's no real reason to include any mention of it in the outsider art article.  Does anyone else think differently? BTfromLA 21:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * PS: A google search for "art extraordinary" turns up a few refernces to the Art Extraordinary Trust in Scotland. There's no indication that anyone not connected with that organizaion uses the term.  BTfromLA 21:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing dubious vocabulary entries
I've cut the terms Irrealism and Art extraordinary from the vocabulary section on the grounds that they do not have any widespread currency in the discussion of outsider art. I'm placing this notice, in case anyone can show otherwise. (Also, I'm a bit confused about the vocabulary list--is it a quotation from "Raw Vision"? If so, we should probably make that clearer and clean it up.) BTfromLA 16:59, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Reverse redirects
How do you reverse the redirects? The title should be Outsider art, not Outsider Art. See most of the articles in Category:Art genres for standard capitalization. Clubmarx 23:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation link
Hello, I removed the disambiguation link to Art Brut (band), again, for two reasons: -- 790 (talk) 21:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) there is a disambiguation page now for Art Brut (you didn't even check)
 * 2) even if the disambiguation page wasn't there, a disambiguation link from Outsider Art to Art Brut (band) would be as useful as one from Jesus to Madonna (singer) - both terms are related in an indirect way, but nobody would look it up there.


 * The disambiguation link should stay, do NOT remove it. If you look up "art brut" in lowercase it redirects here, so the disambig. page becomes entirely useless. Also, your second example is completely ridiculous. "Madonna" and "Jesus" aren't the same word. Charles 21:55, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But "Art brut" and "outsider art" are "the same word", right? -- 790 (talk) 07:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the solution is to assign the lowercase "art brut" to the disambiguation page? BTfromLA (talk) 22:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I took my own advice above, and removed the disambig notice from this page. I don't think there should be any mix-up at this point.  BTfromLA (talk) 22:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Art Extraordinary
I know that there was a vote to merge the now-defunct "Art Extraordinary" page with this one, and that page was dropped here in toto. Frankly, I think the whole thing should be cut, save for one or two of the external links. Part of the material is redundant with the earlier sections of this article, and the rest is basically promotional material for a single gallery in Scotland. The gallery really exists, but it seems a wild exageration to treat "Art Extraordinary" as a concept worthy of inclusion in this short survey of the field, since I can find no evidence that it is used except by that one small, relatively new gallery. I'm posting this here before making cuts in case anyone wants to raise objections or to show how this really merits mention as a significant term. BTfromLA (talk) 22:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, the entire section labeled 'Art extraordinary' should be removed as NN; and also as you say unnecessarily promotional of the "Art Extraordinary Trust", for which Google shows me 19 hits. Finally, "The definition Art Extraordinary was devised in order to reduce the potential alienation felt by those labeled ‘Outsider’. " suggests the term is a WP:NEO.
 * The bullet for Angus McPhee would fit nicely into existing section 'Notable Outsider artists'. --CliffC (talk) 23:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the response. As usual, I am reluctant to add to that list of "notables," if I'm not convinced that they are truly among the handful of outstanding fugures in the field.  MacPhee is a genuine outsider artist, certainly appropriate for an article on his own, but is he a major figure like Wolfli or Darger or Madge Gill?  MacPhee has been featured in a few exhibitions and articles (all promoted by the "Art Extraordinary Trust," as far as I can see), and was apparently the subject of a short film.  He isn't mentioned, as far as I know, in the major surveys of Outsider Art.  It may also be worth noting that all of this material--including the description of MacPhee--was introduced by a single user called "artextraordinarytrust." I'm going to delete the whole of it, except for a couple of links.  If somebody not affiliated with the ARt Extraordinary Trust has a good case that MacPhee is a really important figure in Outsider Art, please make it.  BTfromLA (talk) 06:45, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Trim the list of links?
It seems to me that the list of external links has grown long and digressive, losing sight of the aim of being really useful for a reader hoping to learn more about the topic. I'd like to reduce the list to the major institutions connected with outsider art who have info-rich web sites, and limit it to English-language links. Any thoughts or objections? Ditto for "see also, " which currently included things like a link to an article about an episode of The Simpsons that has an outsider-art plotline. BTfromLA (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and cut the "external links list"--please comment here if you think there are any important omissions. A couple of the major institutions had rather information-poor and/or entirely non-English pages, so I dropped them on those grounds. BTfromLA (talk) 17:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

SanfordSmith: In reply to the trimming of the external links, i would like to point out that through our companies creation of the first ever Outsider Art Fair in the United States we have helped the growth of knowledge on this area of art extremely. On our site we have links to all the galleries past and present that have contributed to the advancement of artists in the Outsider Sector. We are not spam and are not posting our link just for more visitors. Our site allows vistors to visit and view Outsider Art from all the galleries we represent at our shows. Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by SanfordSmith (talk • contribs) 19:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Should we add Nick Blinko to notable artists?
I just figured I'd get people's opinion first before doing it. He is really notable, more for his music (main force behind Rudimentary Peni, but also for his visual art. What is everyone's opinion?  Ungovernable Force  Poll: Which religious text should I read? 00:00, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is he included in the standard literature on the subject?  Ty  00:13, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No clue. My background is more in the punk scene than the outsider art one. But he is a notable figure due to his musical activities (and for doing the art for all their albums) and is part of the outsider art community. It could easily be referenced. His musical and visual art are really well known among the punk community.  Ungovernable Force  Poll: Which religious text should I read? 01:41, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * So I did a quick search. Raw Vision magazine which is mentioned in this article (though I have no idea of it's true notability) has him in their A-Z Index of subjects with this page on him. Henry Boxer (who says he has "dealt in Outsider and Visionary Art since the 1970's") has Nick Blinko on his list of artists as well. He has an extensive page on the first website that comes up with a google search of "British outsider art." Again, as I know little of the outsider art community, I'm not sure how notable any of these sites are, but Blinko clearly has some stock in the outsider art community. I'd say he's more than worth putting in.  Ungovernable Force  Poll: Which religious text should I read? 01:54, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Raw Vision is a good endorsement for including him. It's a notable publication on the genre.  Ty  02:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Felipe Jesus Consalvos
Felipe Jesus Consalvos may be suitable to list as a notable outsider artist. Klyber (talk) 14:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Here is an endorsement of Consalvos by a former Program Director of the Intuit: http://gapersblock.com/airbags/archives/farris_wahbeh_intuit/. Also, Consalvos' work is in the collections of The American Folk Art Museum and the Philadelphia Museum of Art. See also an exhibition at Galerie St. Etienne: http://www.gseart.com/exhibitions.asp?ExhID=498.  Klyber (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Objections
I have a big problem with this article. "Typically, those labeled as Outsider Artists have little or no contact with the institutions of the mainstream art world; in many cases, their work is discovered only after their deaths." Examples of outsider artists that had contact with an "institution" - Daniel Johnston. Darger. This is a bogus definition.

"Outsider Art has emerged as a successful art marketing category (an annual Outsider Art Fair has taken place in New York since 1992); thus the term is sometimes misapplied as a catch-all marketing label for art created by people outside the "art world" mainstream, regardless of their circumstances or the content of their work." - Also this... why does this have to be in the bio? Sometimes it is used to market art? That should be a footnote... not in the bio! Come on you guys! (UTC) (The above two unsigned paragraphs appear to have been posted by user:Cablegirl23)


 * Cablegirl23: I find it hard to understand what your objections actually are, I hope you will clarify them.  What is "bogus" about that definition, and what would be a more authentic one? I encourage you to consult and site scholarly works about outsider art to confirm or refute the definition. (By the way, Darger's work was not shown publicly, at least not to any significant degree, until after his death, and there is scant evidence that he even intended his work to be seen by others, so he does fit the "typical" pattern in the sentence you quote.)  The introduction of the article is in no sense that I understand a "bio," so I don't know what your reference to that means.  It is an article about a category of art.  It seems to me that mentioning that the category is often used to promote types of work that are not within the original defination of the category as laid out by figures such as Dubuffet and Roger Cardinal is very well worth mentioning in the intro, since this marketing-based idea is extremely widespread; just do an ebay search for "outsider art" and you'll see what I mean.  BTfromLA (talk) 07:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The "misapplication" described in the third paragraph seems to fit reasonably well with the definition in the second; that is, the two paragraphs seem almost contradictory, or at least unclear. First we are told that having "little or no contact with the mainstream art world" is "typical" of the outsider artists; then we are told that merely being "outside the mainstream art world" isn't enough. The "often" and "in many cases" phrases don't suggest critical elements of the definition. If being clinically insane really is requisite, this should be made clear; if it isn't, then exactly where is the boundary between "outsider" and insider, if not at the walls (literal or metaphoric) of the art institutions? (And, by the way, it may also be helpful to rephrase these paragraphs to avoid using the word "institution" to describe institutions both of art and of psychological treatment. That's not the point of confusion for me, though.) Spark240 (talk) 15:19, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Philadelphia Wireman
On the other hand, is there any reason the Philadelphia Wireman is not included? S/he should be, I would think. Herostratus (talk) 02:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Francis E. Dec?
Was Francis E. Dec really an artist? Is it possible to be an artist entirely by accident? I strongly question his inclusion. Herostratus (talk) 02:36, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * An "artist by accident" is a defining trait of an outsider artist. Most if not all of the well established figures in this area did not see themselves as artists, nor were they producing work that was offered to the public as a form of art. BTfromLA (talk) 18:52, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Alright, never mind that aspect. Dec was no artist; he was a raving lunatic. Sure, being a raving lunatic doesn't preclude being an artist. But neither does it suffice for being an artist. For one thing, to begin with, Dec is a writer, not an artist. For another thing, his "work" is just a mishmash of paranoid delusion. It's the detritus of a ruined mind. It just isn't art nor was it intended as such. Sure, his ravings are funny, so what. Herostratus (talk) 13:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


 * True, Dec's work is mostly writing, with just a few drawings. So maybe he's better classed as an outsider author. Being deluded is common among outsider artists, and is often part of the appeal of their work as a record of human imagination unconstrained by social norms--the category was invented to describe art (or things that can be viewed as art by others) made by people institutionalized as "insane," after all.  I think there is a visual appeal to Dec's work and that he can fairly be called an outsider artist, but I don't mind dropping him from the list of notables... the list is too long anyway.  Dec is not a major figure in the field, like Wolfli, Darger or Ramirez, so unless someone else objects, I won't revert your change if you cut him again.  BTfromLA (talk) 18:30, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Miroslav Tichý
Restored for the moment after cut "notable" artist who isn't even notable enough to merit his own article.

Having his own article isn't a criterion for inclusion (we've just been discussing the merging of material about Art extraordinary that isn't notable enough for its own article but appears worth a mention in this one). He gets over 38,000 Google hits, which suggests some level of notability. The Czech Wikipedia thinks so, and there are some English sources like this Radio Prague feature. Gordonofcartoon 05:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I see that Tichý has received considerable notice and some fairly high-profile exhibitions.  But this "notable" category is a constant battleground: there are many, many people who can legitimately be listed as outsider artists, far more than can be comfortably accommodated here to provide highlights of the field.  To me, it seems that the list should be limited to a small group of the very best established figures: Wolfli, Darger, people on that level. It may be that the solution, as someone suggested here a while back, is to omit the "notable artists" section of the article entirely.  (As to the Art extraordinary merger, I'm not sure what needs to be merged... it doesn't qualify as a term that has currency, and I'm not sure that the Art Extraordinary Trust really merits a mention--maybe it does; I'd like to hear about it's notability from some sources that aren't closely associated with the organization.  The valuable stuff in that article is mostly general material about Outsider Art that is already in this article.) BTfromLA 05:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) On Tichy, my first inclination when this entry appeared was to delete it as NN, but he gets a lot of ink in Europe and has been featured in several shows. The Czech article you have pointed out is worth looking at just for the 'fotografii' links; some links have articles in English.  His technique is primitive and his photos are artistic and sexy, if it is still permissible to use that word.  Maybe someone will translate the Czech Wikipedia article one day, but until then I think he is one of the very rare red-linked additions that should stay.  --CliffC 05:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have posted new article Miroslav Tichý. His work has been getting more coverage than ever and he had a show in NYC in February.  His photos remain artistic and sexy an "uncanny fusion of eroticism, paranoia and deliberation" (New York Times, that's what I meant); it would be nice to find a free one to illustrate the article.  I substituted a new summary for the one under 'Notable outsider artists'; it was excellent writing but seemed to be a copyright violation from page 'Miroslav Tichy' at Michael Hoppen Gallery, link worth a visit. -CliffC (talk) 14:33, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Editing List of Outsider Artists
I don't really favor the term Outsider Art, or many of the other terms which define this type of art. It's gotten way too trendy to collect— David Byrne has a "Finster" and check out one of the Talking Heads album covers. I follow the Outsider Art group on Yahoo and occasionally contribute. What I have been doing for the last 32 years, is trying to Preserve Bottle Village (PBV is a 501(c)(3)CA NPO) I am one of the founding Board Members. I saw The Owl House (Helen Martins)listed and added Tressa(Grandma)Prisbrey. They are often compared as two 20th century women artists who created large scale environments. Perhaps, the ONLY TWO WOMEN! My addition has been removed twice, with "sorry, this is Folk Art and have you seen the page on Grandma Prisbrey's Bottle Village" Notably missing are other major Visionary/Outsider Art environments: Pasequan, NitWitRidge, Simon(Sam) Rodia's Watts Towers, The Orange Show, to name a few.

Grandma Prisbrey's Bottle Village was often considered Folk Art, until Outsider Art popped up. It's not Folk Art. Some people refer to it as Art Brut, Bricolage, Visionary Art, and/or Assemblage. I lean toward Visionary Art Environment. Our Congressman calls it "an eyesore."

I'm interested in what others think about this. What is the criteria for being listed? Is there a consensus? I just registered, so I'm a complete newbie— but I have added BV info to many other Wikipedia pages. Anonymously. Having my editing removed twice bugged me enough to register. Take Care Josocal (talk) 03:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, welcome to the Big Show! You make a valid point and I'll have to think about this. I wonder if there isn't a kind of unspoken archetype that outsider artists have to be outcasts, loonies, wild men. Someone with her own little house who goes by the moniker "Grandma" and wears lace collars doesn't seem to fit in with the world of "rough art", "raw art", of Wild Man Fischer or the Philadelphia Wireman etc. Herostratus (talk) 06:21, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hello, Josocal. First of all, my hat is off for your work to preserve Bottle Village.  It is a scandal that the local populace and politicos haven't figured out what a treasure that is.  Or the Getty, for that matter, that spends millions to preserve some decrepit European reliefs, but ignores important local works that are in danger of being lost to history.   (I last visited it before the '94 earthquakes... I hope there has at least been some progress in restoring the damaged areas.) Off the soapbox and on to your question... the boundaries of "Outsider Art" are murky at best, and complicated by the fact that anybody who wants publicity will grab at it as a marketing label if they think it will get them attention.  I think you are correct to place the Bottle Village in the "visionary environments" category, and it might be appropriate to add the Bottle Village in the "Vocabulary" section of this article, where visionary environments are described.  Grandma Prisbrey also falls into the folk art category, as the types of work she made--bottle houses, junk assemblages--do fit into an established folk art tradition.  Howard Finster, with his evangelical Christian message and conventional art materials, also falls squarely into the "folk art" category if you ask me (and he is not included as an outsider here, though I am aware he has been described as an outsider artist in some contexts).  It's not clear-cut; there are a handful of artists who have been extensively discussed in the literature of outsider art and who belong to no other category (Wolfli, Darger, Ramirez, a few others); perhaps we should limit our notables to those.  Anyway, my two cents: much as I love Bottle Village, I would not add it to the "outsiders" list, but would be sure it is represented on the "visionary environments" and "folk art" pages.   BTfromLA (talk) 06:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Bush?
Someone added, then someone removed, this material from the list of outsider artists:
 * George W. Bush (b. 1946), the former President of the United States (2001-2009), took up painting in his post-presidential retirement, and was widely described as an outsider artist, especially after his first exhibition, at the George W. Bush Presidential Center in April 2014.

Dunno about this. One the one hand, that's a pretty good collection of refs, and they do at least discuss whether or not the man's a outsider artist, using that term. On the other hand: George Bush. Putting him in could be a kind of troll move, and I don't get the idea that the folks discussing him like him very much, which is in contrast to most of the people on the list. I'd incline to say "don't include" on the basis that his work is of a pretty mainstream type -- paintings of people and things, aspirational at least of being more or less realistic -- if untutored. If your mom took up painting as a hobby and make works like Bush's, would she really be an outsider artist? Bush is famous (for non-art stuff) and your mom's not, but if that's the only difference I can't see including him. With those refs it might be debatable, thoughHerostratus (talk) 03:21, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Improving the list of Notable Outsider Artists
As far back as 2008 people were noting that the list of notable outsider artists was getting too long. I suspect there are lots of vanity listings and people adding their favourite local artist. Some of those added seem to regularly selling work to and exhibiting in mainstream galleries, so are, arguably, not even outsider artists, at least by the definition in para 3. It would be good to sort the list out.


 * 1) What would be a reasonable number of Notable Outsider Artists? About ten? At the moment there are 41.
 * 2) Who qualifies? Perhaps the ten highest Google results returned?
 * 3) A clear link just before the list, saying "For a full list, see the category: Outsider Artists".
 * 4) If an artist isn't even notable enough for a Wikipedia page, they probably don't qualify for the Notable list.

This may help. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 10:11, 18 October 2015 (UTC)


 * And then one may ask, in qualifying for a Wikipedia page, does an artist necessarily lose "outsider" status? If yes, then the list shortens. Jim.henderson (talk) 01:48, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Obviously that's not an issue for those outsider artists whose fame arrived after their death, or spent their lives insitutionalised, so there are some uncontroversial candidates right away: Hampton, Wölfli, the Philadelphia Wireman, Darger. There are also others who've had plenty of press coverage and academic interest but weren't exhibiting in galleries. Looking at the list, most of the candidates are Wikipedia-notable without compromising their "outsider" status. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 08:55, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

List of notable outsider artists
I recently axed this article list as it become truly unwieldy and linked to the article list. Two separate lists is confusing. If others disagree then the list can be reinstated via the article history. I also have a copy in my sandbox. DMT Biscuit (talk) 23:01, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Origin of the term
I think the The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms is an outlier on this question; I can find no second source that dates the English term to the 1940s. The Oxford English Dictionary records the first known use of the term in print as the title of Roger Cardinal's 1972 book. According to Encyclopedia Britannica's article on outsider art, "The term outsider art was introduced into the lexicon in 1972 by British writer Roger Cardinal as an English-language equivalent of the French art brut." Katharine Conley ("Surrealism and Outsider Art: From the ‘Automatic Message’ to André Breton’s Collection", Yale French Studies, no. 109 (2006): 129–43) credits Dubuffet with coining the term Art Brut in 1945, "rendered into English as outsider art by Roger Cardinal in 1972". David Wojcik ("Outsider Art, Vernacular Traditions, Trauma, and Creativity", Western Folklore 67, no. 2/3 (2008): 179–98) says "the term outsider art was coined by Roger Cardinal in 1972 as an equivalent for the French term art brut, proposed by the modernist painter Jean Dubuffet in 1949." Great and Mighty Things: Outsider Art from the Jill and Sheldon Bonovitz Collection (Philadelphia Museum of Art, 2013) provides more detail, explaining that Dubuffet's term "was translated as 'outsider art' for British scholar Roger Cardinal's landmark book of that title, published in 1972", adding that the new term "was, in fact, coined by Cardinal's editor". (p. xi) A few more sources are here and here. Cardinal himself says: "I am in part responsible for launching the concept of Outsider Art in so far as the coinage appeared some years ago as the title of my book (Cardinal 1972)." In view of the broad consensus about this, I'd change the origin of the term back to 1972. Ewulp (talk) 03:00, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Changing first sentence in lead
The first sentence (at least to an outsider of this subject) seems like it's referring to just self-taught artists. That doesn't seem any different from naive art, though. If there's a defining/differentiating characteristic of this art form, what would it be? And should it be added to the first sentence for clarification? - Whisperjanes (talk) 06:47, 26 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I think the relation of naive art to outsider art is worthwhile within the lead since it opens up very relevant rabbit-holes - I also think that characterizing outsider art through culture is the only way to go about this since outsider art isn't necessarily aiming for any concrete genre within the art form itself.
 * I also think the lead sentence is redundant but I'm not sure if it can be improved. Nik4711 (talk) 03:03, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: English 126--Rethinking Research

 * Adding/Editing the Lead, Jean Dubuffet and art brut, Cultural context, and TerminologyPastrynami (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

— Assignment last updated by Pastrynami (talk) 20:06, 8 December 2022 (UTC)