Talk:Ouvertüre zum "Fliegenden Holländer", wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt

Article title
Can anyone explain why this article title is in (mangled) English? It sounds like a machine translation. I cannot find any English-language source that refers to this piece by any but its original German title, Ouvertüre zum Fliegenden Holländer, wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt, or by the short title Overture to the Flying Dutchman. Furthermore, the English equivalent of "Overtüre zum" is always "Overture to" (not "of"), "the" in such a construction should not be treated as part of the title of Wagner's composition, and "spa orchestra" has no meaning in English, even if it is an accurate translation of the German words (though Kapelle is usually a wind band, while English "orchestra" most often implies the presence of bowed-string instruments). Failing any explanation, I propose that the article be moved to the German title, which is the only form by which this work seems to be known, in any language.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:34, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth... Toccata quarta (talk) 20:57, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I would be happy with the German title, and happier if the real opera also had its German title ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * @Toccata: This is not a criticism aimed at you, but posting discussions like this on an editor's Talk page is good way of preventing other editors from finding relevant discussion about articles they just happen across, as I did in this case.
 * @Gerda: I see what you are getting at with respect to Le Vaisseau fantôme but, unlike all the other Wagner operas, this one for some reason has come to be best-known in English-speaking circles by the translated name. Had I been involved in that discussion, I'm afraid I would have opposed the change, also. However, in the present case, I should make an amendment to the proposed title change since, unlike the way it is presented in the current version of this article, Hindemith enclosed the opera title in quotation marks on the cover of the score, thus: Ouvertüre zum „Fliegenden Holländer“, wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt, which I suppose might alternatively be presented as Ouvertüre zum »Fliegenden Holländer«, wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt. Under these circumstances, I suppose some guidance on Wikipedia preferences for rendering quotation marks in foreign-language titles would be good to have. Should English-style quotation marks: Ouvertüre zum "Fliegenden Holländer", wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt be used in such titles for Wikipedia articles, instead of the usual German form?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. OK. I've done my own research, and have found, at MOS:QUOTEMARKS, subsection "Quotation characters", the following: "avoid using the „low-high“ or guillemets (« ») quotation marks that are common in several foreign languages". One assumes this means replacing them with the usual English double-raised commas. Therefore, the proposal is to rename the article Ouvertüre zum "Fliegenden Holländer", wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Go ahead, I think it's uncontroversial. As for Wagner's opera: The Grove has it in German, and it's the only one English here, but I am not passionate about it, just notice another absurdity (to have a better name in Hindemith's work than in the original if we move) ;) - The guideline gives us a very un-German appearance, that's also amusing, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It is too bad that Wikipedia does not seem ever to follow the traditional practice of "reversing-out" italics of titles that would ordinarily be italicized, but are being cited within titles that are themselves in italics. Then we might have Ouvertüre zum Fliegenden Holländer, wie sie eine schlechte Kurkapelle morgens um 7 am Brunnen vom Blatt spielt. I imagine that this looks even more un-German!—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:48, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * For the record: The change of title has been made.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)