Talk:Overclocking/Archive 1

External links, Round 2
Anonymous IPs keep adding and removing external links without explaning why. This is getting tiresome as it is just the same links that are added and removed.

Is it time to be more strict about this sort of thing? On the Sudoku article, there is an explicit note that all external links must be discussed on the talk page, or it will be reverted, becuase of all of the spam. I feel that we are on the verge of having to follow a similar policy for this page. Do we need to come up with a short list of external links that should remain and any new ones most be discussed on the talk page first, or should we remove all of the forums from the list? --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 06:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

structure
I've taken another cleanup pass. I resolved the tag, and restructured the article. I'd like to pull out the section I called "root cause" and move it somewhere more introductory, but I stopped short of that.

I can't figure out why the "The difference between"Unlocking" and "Flashing" a video card" section is in this article, since it's got nothing to do with overclocking. Isn't there a better home for this text? -- Mikeblas 10:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the source of instability in hot processors
I notice that there's been some disagreement about the source of instability in processors which are overclocked and running hot. Conventional wisdom passed down to me has always been that transistors run slower when hot - at least in my process corner simulations I've always found that regardless of layout effects related to wires, the transistors themselves switch more slowly when the temperature is increased. As I understood it this was a materials concern - when at higher temperatures, the channel resistance increases and the current transmitted decreases. Here's a link which seems to back that up. I have read that in recent microprocessors the overall logic delay is reaching 80% due to wires, with only 20% due to transistors. However it was still my understanding that the majority of the delay change due to temperature was due to devices and not wires. Is that the question which we're in disagreement about or can someone rephrase? - McCart42 22:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You're more or less addressing the issue. It is definitely true that the channel resistance and saturation current change with temperature (mostly due to threshold voltage changes).  My contention has been that I cannot identify any reason why a MOSFET should slow down significantly in the small temperature ranges we're talking about.  I'll admit that I'm definitely not a digital logic person.  My circuit experience is with analog electronics and my primary semiconductor physics experience is with heterojunction bipolar devices.  I could very well be overlooking some important effect that would change the time it takes to drive an independent MOS system from weak to strong inversion as a function of temperature.


 * That being said, so far I've seen no compelling reason to believe that this is the case. I've been presented with SPICE circuit simulations that indeed demonstrate the dependence of logic delay on temperature.  However, I feel it's a logical leap to suggest that this circuit behavior necessarily indicates that individual transistors' "switching" speed is slowing down.  While that is one possible explanation, I don't think it's the case for reasons I've described (weak parasitic capacitance temperature dependence, significant temperature-dependent threshold voltage effects).  There are still a lot of factors like channel resistance, saturation current, and especially interconnect transmission line effects that could equally well describe the end result of increased logic delay.


 * I am interested to know if anyone can find a good explanation of logic delay's temperature dependance, and in some of the preliminary reading I've done, channel resistance and saturation current do seem to play some role. I'm still not entirely sure why this is the case since well designed MOS systems require trivial amounts of gate input current, but a couple of papers I've skimmed that address temperature effects on highly scaled CMOS talk a lot about saturation current.  It also would make perfect sense if interconnects are playing a large role since they are non-trivial sources of complex impedence at the frequencies common in a modern microprocessor.  However, I really don't desire to make a huge deal out of what amounts to one sentence.  I changed the phrasing to something that I think we can all agree upon.  It expresses the original point for the purposes of this article, but doesn't suggest that individual FET switching speed is necessarily the cause. -- mattb


 * For what it's worth, I am a digital logic person.


 * So we're all in agreement that some part of transistors is causing transistors to slow down, right? It sounds to me like the original wording that specifically blames the FETs can go back, since it provides more detail than just "propagation".  If someone said, "the sun is bright", that would be an accurate statement even if the person doesn't know the reason.


 * Back to my spice circuits, the only objects in the ring oscillator were transistors. There wasn't anything else.  Therefore, the transistors are getting slower for definitions of "slower" used in ordinary digital logic designer discussion (specifically, that given an input transition, the output node crosses Vdd/2 later, whether this is due to the transistor not turning fully on as quickly or whether it's due to reduced Ids).  As McCart42 said, channel resistance increases, so even if all of the capacitances stay the same, it will take longer for the gate cap of the load devices (i.e. inputs of the next level of logic in a path) to charge and discharge.  As I've said before, there are no transmission lines in this circuit simulation.  However, I think I now understand where you're coming from.


 * As to "why this is the case since ... MOS systems require trivial amounts of gate input current", the answer is simple. MOSFETs switch based on gate voltage, rather than base current.  There is some gate capacitance in the devices, and this capacitance has to be charged or discharged past the threshold voltage for the device to switch.  As Ids falls, the first logic gate in a chain charges the input caps of the second logic gate in the chain (plus its own drain diffusion caps and any parasitics in the circuit) more slowly, so the gate voltage at the second gate changes more slowly... it takes longer to cross the threshold voltage, resulting in the second gate switching later.  Now, the "switching point" for an actual gate (e.g. an inverter) actually depends on the beta ratio and all that fun stuff, because there's a region where both the pfet and nfet are on, and fight each other, but hopefully it makes sense that if the transistors making up the gate switch later, the whole gate gets slower.


 * Coming from the analog world dealing with BJTs, you're used to transistors that are actually controlled by the current, and even a 30% drop in saturation current is not going to matter too much since you only need like 1% of that current going into a base to switch the next transistor in your circuits.


 * I drew a picture showing a very simplified MOSFET-based inverter chain to hopefully clear up how I'm saying these things work: http://ctho.ath.cx/pics/mosfetInverterChainDelay.png  The switches open and close based on the voltage across the capacitors.  As the resistances increase, it will take longer for the first transistor to charge cap c2, and thus take longer to cross the threshold of the second transistor's FETs.


 * I hope this all makes sense.


 * One last thing I'd like to touch on: McCart42 mentioned that a lot of delay is in the wires nowadays. That's true for some paths, but not true for a very large number of paths.  When it comes to temperature and overclocking, I'd actually expect the wire-dominated paths to be less of a problem than the gate-dominated paths, since the gate delay is going to increase so much more than the wire delay.  --CTho 03:18, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, now I too understand where you're coming from. However, I still totally disagree with adding text that claims that the FETs are going "slower".  As you just explained, the circuit slowdown is due to increased resistance in the channel of the previous device, which causes the gate cap to charge more slowly.  That means that the delay increase is as a result of the way the gates are being used in a circuit, not because the transistors themselves "slow down".  I think this is merely a terminology issue because "speed" isn't something that's generally well defined for a single transistor.  There are parameters like cutoff frequency and such, but those don't translate to speed.  Now, your claim is that the usage of the term "speed" as you're familiar with it in this context is analogous to "digital logic propagation delay".  I can accept that, but I think it's therefore most appropriate for the article to say "propagation delay", not "MOSFET speed".  Propagation delay is a circuit factor and is not well-defined in the context of an individual FET.  In other words, the circuit is getting slower inasmuch as delay is increasing, but the individual transistors are simply passing a little less current through their channels.


 * In this case, your hyperbolic "the sun is bright" simplification is probably appropriate. A real explanation of what's going on here requires a paragraph about channel resistance as a function of carrier mobility and threshold voltage, which are themselves functions of temperature.  That discussion may be appropriate somewhere (like, say, a section in propagation delay), but I really don't think it's important to talk about transistor operation in an article where it's more than sufficient to say "temperature increases propagation delay."  There's always the question of "how much is too much to explain".  For an article on a topic that really has little to do with circuit design, I think that the very brief explanation is the best.  If we were to explain mobility and threshold voltage, where do we stop?  Do we explain thermal voltage?  Surface band bending?  Majority carrier type inversion?  The quantum mechanical effects behind effective carrier mass and mobility?  You see where I'm going with this?


 * Incidentally, you don't need to explain how FETs work in laymens' terms for my benefit (kudos for a good simple explanation, though I've never personally liked the switch simplification even for digital contexts). I've done some MOS design and fab and have worked a good bit on HEMTs (type of FET built out of heterojunctions), so I'm well aware of the physics of FET operation.  I was actually thinking along different lines when I asked that question, but I expressed myself pretty badly and I can totally understand why you thought I was confused about device operation principles.  Sorry for the confusion there, but I assure you that I know how MOS systems work.


 * P.S. - I'm interested to know what the "beta ratio" you spoke of earlier is. That doesn't sound like a transistor parameter since the closest thing in transistor-speak is bipolar transitor beta (common-emitter current amplification; a function of emitter injection efficiency and base transport factor).  I assume it's a digital logic term relating to the points where the output is momentarily undefined?  In any case, this has been interesting dialogue.  I now have a new factoid to file away that explains why temperature increases digital propagation delay. -- mattb


 * So propagation delay is of course what we've been referring to when we speak of "speed"; at least that was always my assumption. It's certainly now clear that this was an analog-digital disconnect.  When I think of speed in a digital context I generally think of half-VDD rising on input to half-VDD falling on output (propagation delay), whereas 20% VDD rising to 80% VDD rising on output could also be considered a measure of speed.  To clear up what CTho meant by beta ratio - beta ratio is the ratio of PFET resistance per square to NFET resistance per square.  This winds up being the same ratio as the PFET W/L to NFET W/L for equal rise and fall time. - McCart42 05:13, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Now that we're all on the same page, I don't really like the current wording of the paragraph, because the way I read it, it sounds more like wire delay is the main factor (since that's where I imagine signals propagating). How about this?  It specifies what part of a circuit gets worse by the largest amount (the FETs), yet describes the slowness as arising at the circuit level, which fits with a definition of "slow" I think we all agree on now.


 * Due to changes in MOSFET device characteristics, circuits slow down at high temperatures. Since overclockers aim to operate circuits at higher frequencies, it is critical to keep delay from increasing to the point where data cannot propagate completely within a clock cycle. Wire resistance also increases slightly at higher temperatures[1]; this is a small additional factor contributing to decreased circuit performance.


 * --CTho 23:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That verbiage is perfectly agreeable to me. Go for it. -- mattb

downbinning / "under rating" / "manufacturer underclocking"
I added a bunch of "verify source" tags to claims that manufacturers downbin components based on demand / yields, since I've never heard this from a reputable source. It doesn't make economic sense to me, so I'm going to remove these claims from the article if nobody can provide a trustworthy source or at least convince me that it is an economical behavior for a company. --CTho 01:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have heard of it happening, by word of mouth, though I am the farthest thing from an econ major, and couldn't imagine how it makes good business sense. If anyone feels like posting a situation in which it would be beneficial to a company to do, feel free. - McCart42 02:38, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I used to work at Intel developing software for the Assembly and Test factory floor. I know for a fact that downbinning occured as it was a part of the business process implemented in the software.  It make business sense in the following way:  say Dell orders 1000 100MHz CPUs.  From experience you know you get a mix of 10% 100MHz, 60% 150MHz, and 30% 200MHz.  So if you don't do any downbinning in order to fill Dells order you need to start enough wafers to make 1000 100MHz CPUs, but that would also produce 6000 150MHz CPUs and 3000 200MHz CPUs.  If you don't have buyers for those extra 9000 CPUs, that's time and space you are wasting.  Instead, they start just enough wafers to fulfill all of the orders even if it means downbinning some CPUs.  You save money by shipping and storing less product, and getting orders done on time.
 * Doing so makes perfect economic sense. See Price discrimination. It would be stupid for manufacturers not to downbin. Grouse 08:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not drop the price on the 150MHz parts instead, thus making your product much more appealing than the competitor's, boosting your volume of shipments in the bins where you get the most parts? Just because that's not a concern for a monopoly?  AMD is currently not a monopoly, and Intel seems unlikely to want to act like one right now given AMD's lawsuit, so would it make sense nowadays?  Anyway, do you have anything we could use as a source?  If it's true and someone has a source, it should certainly appear once in the article (though it doesn't need to appear 3 times as it did before) --CTho 18:48, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The price on the more expensive chips does eventually drop, largely because of process refinement. Maintaining the various speed bins allows the manufacturer some time to get all the bugs worked out of their process.  The first batch of the highest speed bin will be the most expensive because yield at that point is very low.  As the process is refined a bit, yield on those faster chips increases and therefore the price can drop.  Eventually the process will be at the point where it gives roughly the same yield for several speed ranges.  So if the aforementioned big order comes in, it makes much more sense to downbin some of the ICs that can run faster to meet the demand rather than doing several more process runs to pick out several more lower-performing devices and thereby have an excess stock of the higher performing ones.  So again, it's basically about what the demand is, because at a certain point the yield for various performance levels becomes pretty similar, and a large-scale CMOS facility builds by the wafer, not by the die. -- mattb

measuring effects of overclocking
To me, it sounds like this part of the article is negatively biased.

""For example, some benchmarks test only one aspect of the system, such as memory bandwidth,without taking into consideration how higher speeds in this aspect will improve the system performance as a whole""-- Memory bandwith benchmarks are uncommon and not likely to be used as a reference of an overclocked system performance. Also there is no mesurement of a system as a whole, because that performance depends on the type of processing performed. I will not delete this because I cant write a whole paragraph right now. Silverxxx 16:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Effect on integrated sound
I have a quick question about the basic effects of increasing voltage. I have discovered that I can increase my FSB from 133 to 174 without increasing voltage. Everything works fine, except integrated sound. I find I have to downclock to 170mhz for sound to work. Now here is my question: if I return to 174mhz and increase voltage, would that somehow get the integrated sound working? As you can tell I am new to overclocking and I can't think of anywhere else but wikipedia to ask this, as the tutorial I am using isn't clear on this. 75.75.110.235 03:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

OverclockingWiki.org
This site is getting a pretty considerable amount of overclocking information (143+ articles) and has an active user base. People looking for overclocking information here would also be well served with the information on www.overclockingwiki.org, which includes a user to user support system via their forums. Dekard 16:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Why was the link to overclockingwiki removed without discussion? -- Mikeblas 18:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Because, if I believe it's not within Wikipedia policy - and is more a directory link - then I can remove it. Just as anybody else can. MansonP 09:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If you can come up with better reasoning than "because you can", then let's talk it over. Meanwhile, I've added the link to overclockingwiki.org to the external links section. Per WP:EL, the site provides a level of detail that's inappropriate for Wikipedia artcles, and is meaningful and relevant content to this article. -- Mikeblas 19:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 220+ pages of overclocking information is enough for me to call it details. A directory would merely link to other sites, all the article links I saw were internal with the exception of links to manufactures homepage. And the focus is pretty strict, unlike WP's overall scope. I think its a great link. Dekard 17:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Mikeblas, sure there are better reasons. For one, the WP:EL guidelines clearly state that links to be avoided are "Links to open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." This domain was registered at the end of last year and hardly qualifies under substantial history. Heck, it doesn't even figure in archive.org at all. We won't even get to the substantial number of editors qualification.


 * BTW, Mikeblas and Dekard, the two defenders of keeping this external link, are you the same Mikeblas and Dekard at who run that place? If so, is there somewhere here you've disclosed that you are connected to the site? MansonP 10:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow. This site is instructive to show how thoroughly a "public domain wiki.org" can serve commercial goals.  Likely Wikipedia will look like this one day, once someone figures out how to commandeer it.  I found lots of ads but have yet to figure out how to list the 143 detailed articles. 70.15.116.59 (talk) 20:22, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is overvolting hardly mentioned?
I was under the impression that it is common practice to increase voltages to improve stability of overclocked components. It seems strange that this article makes almost no mention of this practice. (Most mentions are tangential at best, the main mention I found was in the section on Incorrectly performed overclocking.) The article on overvolting says it is part of overclocking, so why isn't it covered here. If overvolting is indeed a common practice, it deserves clearer coverage (perhaps under section 1.) If not, perhaps it deserves clearer coverage as something that is commonly mentioned in relation to overclocking, but why it is not practiced by those in the know. Zodon (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Throttling the overclocking article
I find the discussion as interesting as the article. But there are basic problems with the article direction. While some overclocking is designed into products and therefore somewhat safe, much is not. (Speaking as someone who destroyed a motherboard in a fix that overclockers assured me was in the "absolutely safe" category. One single change, the smallest possible with that clock, and presto, toasted board.)

Apart from the unusually high technical understanding this article and Discussion shows, overclocking arouses passions. People start with a premise (perhaps a quite true premise), and "work outward" to support their argument. There are overclockers who are indignant that manufacturers throttle chips for marketing purposes. There are overclockers who are impatient with non-technical people, and want to dismiss their experiences out-of-hand as being "ignorant". There are overclockers with exceptional technical expertise who want to enlighten people and correct technical misunderstandings. There are overclockers who love their equipment, and enjoy the tuning process, in-and-of-itself. In some way and fashion, I've embodied each of them, at one time or another.

The problem with the article is that there is no way to get closure in sections such as "Advantages". Even overclocking on purpose-built electronics will be less-well understood than "normal" operation. All this discussion of the technical characteristics of chips is great. I love it. But overclocking knowledge depends heavily on non-scientific, non-reproducable experiences. (Read "not encyclopedic".) Statements like the opening bullet in Advantages are wildly misleading. "The user can, in many cases, purchase a slower, cheaper component and overclock..." Certainly they can. They "can" also purchase an albino aardvark and teach it to dance. Whether a typical user is LIKELY to be able to do so is another question. Statements implying that overclocking is provisionally, basically, good are sheer, unprovable, unfounded speculation, and do NOT belong in Wiki.

67.180.48.127 (talk) 02:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Claims of "max overclock"
To say that the CPU-Z screenshot represents the maximum overclock possible on that CPU is misleading. R3ap3R.inc (talk) 17:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to the [[Image:Pentium-Dual-Core-E2140-100%25-overclock-2.PNG|E2140 screenshot]? The 100% part means that the final frequency was double (i.e. increased 100%) that of the rated/stock frequency. [[User:Andareed|Andareed]] (talk) 18:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

RAM heat spreaders/sinks
The article claims that RAM heatsinks and spreaders are useless, but that's not always true. Although it's true that memory doesn't produce a lot of heat, it's also true that memory isn't designed to tolerate much heat. If you overclock your memory then you're going to be putting more strain on it than it was designed for, and that's fully capable of ruining a rig or keeping it from performing as well as it could. RAM sticks don't heat evenly with use, and a point-overheat can cause errors and failures. Heat spreaders and sinks CAN prevent this from happening. I'll grant that most people who purchase RAM heat spreaders/sinks don't need them, but to call them useless is overboard. I would edit the article, but I can't provide a source for this information. Fdgfds (talk) 03:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You could look for datasheets from the manufacturers of the actual chips and see if they really do have a low max operating temperature. --CTho (talk) 16:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * RAM sinks would work if there was a decent way of tranfering the heat to them, butthermal expoxy acts as an insulator believe it or not. I don't have time for citations now, but Google is your friend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.157.239 (talk) 08:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Heat
"Also, more heat will be expelled from the PC's vents, raising the temperature of the room the PC is in - sometimes to uncomfortable levels."

I find this totally ridiculous. A PC is not a damn heating device. At least my pc (which was "professinally" overclocked) doesn't keep me warm in winter...

Please let me know what you think —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snikch (talk • contribs) 22:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * the poster may have gotten that idea from server rooms. Server rooms can get extremely hot if not properly maintained. As far as a single overclocked computer heating a computer I have not heard of anyone complaining of an overclocked computer heating a room to an uncomfortable level. But hey, if there is any truth to this I might just sell my furnace for scrap based on how many computers I have in my house. Rcopley (talk) 21:45, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

External link to Overclockers.com reversion
I added a link to overclockers.com in the external link section which was reverted by mr.ollie without comment. Overclockers.com was launched November 1st, 1998 and was the first overclocking community site to reach a large audience. It contains a lot of detailed articles focussed on overclocking and the hardware overclockers use, and also features a forum for the community to help themselves.

As such, it should either be included in the external links section, or overclockersonline.net should be removed. Overclockersonline.net doesn't have the history to make it a relevant or notable destination to include in the external links section.

Hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.141.31.16 (talk) 21:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Per WP:ELNO points 10 and 11, we don't link to community sites, forums, and/or blogs. - MrOllie (talk) 23:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the clarification Mr. Ollie. Overclockers.com is a site with editorial content produced mostly by Joe Citarella and Ed Stroligo, but more recently mainly features community submitted material which is editted and approved by a team of editors. The previous inclusion of overclockersonline.net when I made the edit that spurred this discussion was misleading to me. Your explanation makes sense, though I disagree. Did you refer to the discussion above about external links?  I hadn't noticed that until just now... I can't decide for myself if it should be included or not now per Wikipedia's rules, although it certainly is a relevant and notable resource for overclocking. It's the second google result after this article for the keyword "overclocking". That said, I'll default to trusting your judgement if your certain of your interpretation of the rules. 66.80.92.121 (talk) 00:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Overclock.net
Why can't we add Overclock.net to the list of sites? It's a very nice site for computers in general, and of course overclocking. I feel it's relevant, even if it is a forum. 64.126.177.30 (talk) 20:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

GPU Unlocking
The sentence "The 6800LE, the 6800GS and 6800 (AGP models only) and Radeon X800 Pro VIVO were some of the first cards to benefit from unlocking. " in the GPU overclocking alternatives section is wrong. There were many cards that could be unlocked prior to the x800/6800 series, such as the Radeon 9500 (unlocked into a Radeon 9700) and the Radeon 9800SE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.245.122.38 (talk) 09:12, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

"exploding" cpu video
I believe this video is deceptive. When Tom's Hardware performed the same experiment, they merely observed extreme temperatures and smoking components. We are not actually shown the cables from the exploding system going to the monitor. PCBs are quite sturdy, so it would require significant force to blow a hole in the motherboard; with that much force I would expect more damage to the socket, and the motherboard to jump visibly. If you look carefully, you can see that the hole actually goes through the table and you can see through to the ground - any blast that blew a hole through the table would have resulted in a lot more than the CPU flying out (e.g. the whole motherboard would probably be launched). I suspect that this is staged: the motherboard and table already had holes cut in them, the system we are shown is not the one displaying images on the monitor, and a small explosive such as a firecracker was used to launch the CPU. --CTho 06:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

you are so thorough, I suppose rvv would explain enough--200.181.168.199 20:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see a hole through the table - it seems as if there is a reflective surface beneath the chip that exploded, though. Given that the other video which you accept shows chips rapidly heating to 300 F and above, it is not all that implausible that something could vaporize and explode within a chip.  I have seen (very much cheaper) integrated circuits exploded by intentional connection to 110V cords ... while that's obviously a more severe test, they still could only have gotten so hot prior to detonation. 70.15.116.59 (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Completely plausible. A rapid heat buildup in many materials will cause them to explode. Any number of reasons could cause a thermal differential like that, and the rigid structure of a cpu would be susceptible to exploding, like a fuse which blows when it too much current passes through it.Landroo (talk) 00:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the exploding Duron video is a hoax. Unfortunately I don't have any sources, and I'm just another unsigned. What I remember (unverified) is the table under the motherboard already had a hole in it, and they used an air rifle or firearm to shoot through the processor. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.58.234.50 (talk) 23:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

C1E/(E)IST/Cool'n'Quiet
I think it shoul be mentioned in the article, that C1E and Intel SpeedStep/Enhanced Intel Speedstep/Cool'n'Quiet must be disabled before overclocking a system's CPU. --MrBurns (talk) 00:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This isn't true. I have it enabled on my i7-2600k, and yes, it's overclocked. 72.152.44.48 (talk) 19:26, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Article suggestion about the disadvantage of overclocking
Somebody should edit the "Disadvantages of Overclocking" section to include the categories "Disadvantages of Incompetent Overclocking" and "Overall Disadvantages of Overclocking". For example, incompetent overclockers may damage their drives, blow up CPUs, and render their systems unstable. This is not true for people who know what they're doing, as their overclocked machines are GUARANTEED to be 100% stable due to the stress testing whereas stock machines aren't. In this respect, overclocked machines are more stable than stock machines. Also the "60 to 66 frame/s" comment presents a bit of a fallacy, as you do not generally overclocking your "computer", but rather individual parts. A little bit faster here + a little bit faster there will end up giving you a significant boost.

On the other hand, disadvantages such as higher power draw apply to both categories whether you're competent or not. I really think we need to split this into 2 sections.

---

I agree. I'm working on that now.

Pueywei 02:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

--

When? The whole page looks like all of the negative stuff in it is based on what happens to idiots who don't research things, or are incapable of understanding the process. Yes, this shit happens, but usually only to idiots. Granted, this isn't something for people who don't know anything about the concepts of systems analysis, and scientific method (or just don't believe in it, like christians?).

IMHO, this article basically written like a third rate high school freshman book report.

One of the problems here is wikipedia itself. It's standards limit things to basically mass media reports, and manufacturer statements. Peer review for this doesn't happen in journals, but happens at a very limited number of internet forums (wikipedia will not allow such peer-review, because it doesn't recognize the 21st century, probably why it has such a right wing slant). 69.49.217.158 (talk) 12:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

--

I have edited and rewritten some points to make them clearer. Some new subsections have been created too, for some points listed are not really disadvantages, but more of limitations of overclocking. Please review and make any changes as necessary. :)

-

No, I believe that the disadvantages section is blown out of all proportion, and merely needs some parts edited, others deleted, and all of it compacted into a few well chosen sub-topics.

DOTANDCOM 18:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Depends, if you understood physics you would know when you overlock a CPU you will almost half the life of the CPU depending on how much you overclock. Although CPU's are made to last 10 to 20 years, with overclocking the life will be significantly lower. Some people think they are clever overclocking with liquid nitrogen, but that will also shorten the life of the CPU. If you want to understand more, study the material properties of silicon and copper, stress, strain, electrical conductivity and other factors and you will understand what I am saying far better. The only way to over clock safely is to keep the temp. spot on the normal thresholds, not below or above, which is challenging on its own as well as core deep cooling, any passive cooling will still affect the lifecycle of the cpu, but if thresholds are kept, less. That is not just for the cpu, but all other components which overclocking puts an strain on. Typical symptoms of an overclocked cpu which has reached its life is system crashes, blue screen, instability and blowing the CPU altogether. Hope that has helped.


 * Also remember, this article is not just for experts, also amateurs, who might find the disadvantages relevant. --Sina 19:33, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

In the opening text "although with the introduction of Intel's new X58 chipset and the Core i7 processor, the front side bus has been replaced with the QPI" implies that was the first instance to eliminate the traditional Front Side Bus from x86. The AMD Athlon64 predates that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperTransport —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.58.234.50 (talk) 00:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

More changes
The article was:


 * The main aspect of overclocking is the need for more effective cooling than that of the inefficient air-based cooling systems which come packaged with typical CPUs and graphics cards. High-end, specially-designed, copper heatsinks are often used with powerful fans for better cooling. Liquid (usually water) cooling is another popular method, which uses liquid as a coolant because it is more efficient conductor of heat than air is. Instability is a major danger of overclocking, although most overclockers take some precautions to check their systems for stability. The process of stress-testing a system is often called burn-in, and it is common to run several applications simultaneously or special burn-in application that place a high load on the component being tested.

I have changed the items in bold.

Firstly, "the inefficient air-based cooling systems" is borderline non-NPOV, but more importantly, it's unclear what is meant by 'efficient' in this context. Stock air cooling uses very little electricity, which is what I would consider efficient, in the same way that a small, unpowerful car is efficient.


 * Geez, no wonder nobody uses wikipedia anymore except christian homeschoolers... stock heatsinks can't even keep a modern CPU within it's TDP under load at stock speeds.  This is what is meant by "inefficient".  when people speak of the efficiency of CPU cooling, they are not speaking of the power drawn by it's fans.  they are speaking of the thermal efficiency, as well as other factors such as size.  "gee, should i put this aio in my system that has a pump/block weighs 75-150 grams on the motherboard, and requires me to mount a 240x120mm radiator in the top of the chassis, or should i hang a monstrosity like a noctua nh-d15 sideways on my motherboard weighing 1.3 kG and get the same level of heat removal as the aio?" ?  with statements like yours here, you shouldn't have any input at all in this article, as it clearly shows you have no knowledge in what you are writing about.  are you homeschooled? 69.49.217.158 (talk) 12:26, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Secondly, solids are a much better conductor of heat than liquids, but this is besides the point - air and liquid are used as convectants, not conductors. Liquid cooling removes more heat because it can move the heat to larger heatsink which is usually air cooled. The water is used primarily to transport the heat. 62.252.192.7 12:15, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Factual inaccuracies, general poor quality.
This article is the worst i've read yet, i've corrected one mistake but i'm finding so many little things and improper writing, this article needs improvement which is beyond my skill. It has the quality of an average post on a hardware forum.


 * Welcome to 2015, I rank it lower than that in quality and accuracy, and find it highly opinionated and biased. 69.49.217.158 (talk) 13:14, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Highlight: "hard drive platters can have an increased rpm rate by overvolting the drive motor" Simply not true, harddrives use synchonous motors.


 * As I have commented elsewhere here in the Talk page, this article is so full of outright inaccuracy and half-truths, generally from the con side of things, that I am openly suspecting here that christian homeschoolers wrote it. 69.49.217.158 (talk) 13:14, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

On the bright side, it seems fairly balanced on the pros and cons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.156.167.207 (talk • contribs)


 * I agree, the article really does need a makeover. Maybe it should be scrapped entirely and started over?  Whatever is decided, we need someone with the knowledge and time to take this challenge on. By the way, to sign your comments, you can just put ~ and the wiki software will automatically insert your name (or IP in this case) and the date.  Cheers, PS2pcGAMER (talk) 02:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I do agree. However, scrapping it and starting over seems a little excessive. Just junk the unverified or dubious stuff? Btw, what is the target audience of this article? Pueywei 10:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * the con side is almost entirely inaccuracies and half-truths. i say scrap it, start from scratch, and lobby wikipedia to accept the prime forums (none of which are listed in the article) as legitimate peer review sources.  overclock.net overclock3d.net overclockers.com etc.  none of this tomshardware shit (etc). 69.49.217.158 (talk) 13:14, 23 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I suggest bringing in the Overclock.net crew to do a major re-write lol. OmniAngel 14:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree entirely. The main pages there have both pro and cons at the top of the page.  I'm active there, and this article here reads like nobody involved in writing it knows what the hell they are talking about, except for brief small bits buried in the bullshit that is this article, surrounded by what the idiots wrote.  Speaking of which, I'm gonna grab a picture of a modern watercooled PC.  Even the picture they have here is as negative as they could make it, NASTY looking and completely unprofessional, and even looks unsafe.  Hmmmm... How about the product page pictures of the In Win 909 display model at Computex 2015 in Taipei?  That had to be one of the most beautiful and professional jobs at the show, in a nice chassis too (just went into distribution for USD$450 this month, finally), and takes up to four radiators.  Hell, how about a picture of my more modest Corsair 750D and H100i GTX AIO?  Nice, clean, five year warranty on the cooler...  The only case of an AIO leaking in the past five years I have personally seen is a case where the dude yanked on the hoses, and later it leaked.  DUH!!!  Indeed, computer chassis these days that don't have water cooling mounts internally are considered QUITE GHETTO, so much so that even the chinese $50 cases are putting in mountpoints. "Wanna sell me a chassis that doesn't have water cooling options?  I'll give you ten bucks for it".

A modern water cooled system. 69.49.217.158 (talk) 13:14, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I think that the article as it is really isn't that encyclopedic -- it delves down too much into specifics of things. I'd suggest removing most of the hardware-specific bits -- e.g., the last third or so of "Measuring effects of overclocking" -- in favor of a general overview of the subject. Any hardware-specific information is quickly going to become dated. Efindel 16:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that this article needs a lot of work to bring up its quality. I'll take a stab at this later today. --ZsinjTalk 15:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I corrected a couple of blatent factual errors. The tone of the article is still bad, though.  It doesn't even bother to explain WHY heat can lead to instability (think: carrier density in semiconductors versus temperature, and more importantly, temperature-sensative resistors).  It also doesn't make mention of the fact that clock periods cannot be decreased beyond the point of worst-case delay in an IC.  This is rather fundamental since it partially explains sporadic malfunctions in synchronous ICs run outside spec. -- uberpenguin
 * I copy edited the article a bit to improve some blantantly bad grammar errors along with removing the list-like feel to the article. In one case I deleted an entire paragraph (details were getting far too specific in terms of which programs to use). This article definatley needs an expert or if not an expert someone who has the time to find a ton of sources for the information given. I would agree with Uberpenguin that a scientific approach needs to be taken in at least one section of the article. As of now it seems to be more of a guide to overclocking and good programs you might use to do so, rather than an encyclopedic article.-- SomeStranger ( T  |  C ) 02:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

OVerclok
I heard sum1 used a refirgerator to cool down the CPU, I woner if u can clock internet!! Realg187 21:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah Bruh! The trick, man, and you can do it too, is you have to up the voltage to 1.5V and the multiplier to 60.  Then the fridge can really do ya good!  Make sure the door is closed now! 69.49.217.158 (talk) 14:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Its not possible to overclock the internet, only computer chips. Sorry. Dekard

Too bad, how can I make my PC faster, is it in the BIOS?? Realg187 16:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not even sure where to start in correcting misconceptions here... My only advice is not to worry too much about overclocking.  If you really want to learn something, pick up a book on microprocessor architecture.  -- mattb


 * I think he might take some classes in English, and probably quite a few other subjects too, before overclocking. I wonder if he is the stereotype that led to 90% of the article? 69.49.217.158 (talk) 14:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

You could start at overclockingwiki.org... read the articles on overclocking basics there and it will get you started. After you have done some basic reading on overclocking there you can hit the forums and get some personal help. Dekard 16:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I like forums!!, is it different for each PC and wroth it?? Ill have to ask on the forum!

what have I done.. Dekard


 * failed to judge character. well, the good news is that he hasn't been back.  just like in real life, you have to judge character before imparting knowledge, otherwise it's lost or abused.  just as i wouldn't hire a radical christian, because they cannot even be trusted to tell the truth in minor things, if you hire one, you deserve the lawsuits and lost money from lost customers. Just an analogy.  You have to judge them before imparting anything to them. 69.49.217.158 (talk) 14:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Unix hardware?
Be aware that changing clock speeds isn't limited to just PCs. The openboot menu on sun hardware allows you alter the clock speed of the CPU. e.g an e420r may be fitted with 450MHz units, but can be overclocked to 480Mhz happily. I guess finding a citation might be tricky, people do it all the same. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.96.235.230 (talk) 20:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC).


 * The OBP manual maybe? 69.49.217.158 (talk) 14:20, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

void warranty???
"It is also worth mentioning that adding physical elements to the video card immediately voids the warranty (even if the component has been designed and manufactured with overclocking in mind, and has the appropriate section in its warranty)." This is incorrect, atleast in a non-US locale. In Europe warranty cannot be "voided" automatically by altering the hardware. Evensen1982 22:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

this statement tends to hold true in aus as well with the vast mjority of hardware avaliable. so i would advise to generally check local manufacturers guidlines and warranty smallprint as some will allow overcloking as fair use but there are several, AMD and Intel included that will breach warranty as soon as you start overclocking it. 152.91.9.153 (talk) 10:46, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no problem with video card warranties in the USA either. As long as you remove your block, and put the original cooler back on (I recommend using something better than the cheap crap pads they put in originally though.  Phobya makes some nice thermal pads that work at much better thermal conductivity than the ones shipped by the AMD and nVidia vendors. Oh, and Intel now even offers a special warranty you can buy for a one-shot no-questions-asked CPU replacement of one that died from overclocking. 69.49.217.158 (talk) 14:24, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

History
When did this become popular? I think it was the late 1990s? What kicked it off? I remember controversies surrounding this issue (chips deliberately "derated" for commercial reasons), but don't remember details. 2fort5r (talk) 10:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Interesting story from the 1980s, from the IBM AT article: The combination of the faster clock rate, fewer clock cycles per instruction, and the 16-bit bus led to a computer that was in the marketing sense too fast. IBM was protective of their lucrative mainframe and minicomputer businesses and consequently ran the original PC/AT (139 version) at a very conservative 6 MHz with one wait state. They also used a three to one interleave on the hard disk, even though the controller supported two to one. Many customers replaced the 12 MHz crystal (which ran the processor at 6 MHz) with a 16 MHz one, so IBM introduced the PC/AT 239 which would not boot the computer at any speed faster than 6 MHz, by adding a speed loop in the ROM. This also introduced the Baby AT motherboard form factor. The final PC/AT, the 339, ran the processor at 8 MHz with one wait state, and was built as IBM's flagship microcomputer until the 1987 introduction of the PS/2 line. 2fort5r (talk) 11:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

My A+ teacher says he remembers buying a Chip in the mid-late 80s/early 90s that was a 3mhz processor, and he overclocked it to 6mhz. He says his entire neighborhood went to his house to see him play ultra-fast tetris. :D --Rockstone (talk) 15:38, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a crock to me. I don't think there were any commercial CPUs mass produced with a 3 MHz clock. There were 1, 2, 4, 4.77, 6, 8, 10, 12.... 69.49.217.158 (talk) 14:29, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Disadvantages of overclocking
Many of the disadvantages of overclocking can be mitigated or reduced in severity by skilled overclockers. However, novice overclockers may make mistakes while overclocking which introduces many avoidable drawbacks.

General Disadvantages of overclocking
These disadvantages are unavoidable by both novices or veterans.


 * The lifespan of a processor is negatively impacted by higher operation frequencies, increased voltages and heat. However, the effect of operation frequencies and voltages has not been proven to be a major factor in processor lifespan. An experienced overclocker would have taken steps to ensure operation within safe temperature ranges. Morever, with the rapid obseletence of processors coupled with the long life of solid state microprocessors (10 years or more), it is argued that the processor will be replaced before any threat of failure.

--Comment - See http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:El49Z0vfWS8J:www.techspot.com/vb/all/windows/t-5191-How-often-do-you-shutdown-your-computer.html+electron+migration&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&client=opera Quote " the main cause of failure for semiconductor devices (assuming that they are operating within range while in use) is electron migration (much as for lightbulbs that are kept ON). Electron migration is effected by current flowing through a device, and will happen more quickly when the current is high. I know this to be a fact, as I used to carry out defect investigation of electronic components when I worked in the defence industry. I examined hundreds of components, and each time it was components that carried most current that failed first, even if they were not operating anywhere near their limit.

All things wear out, even electronic components, but it takes a very long time for these to fail due to wear. Also, you might wish to consider how CPUs and even Computer PSUs work. By their very nature these devices are constantly being switched ON/OFF (transistors) billions of times each second (in some cases) and yet they don't fail. Ok so they aren't being heated and cooled constantly, but really, semiconductors are not lightbulbs and they expire mainly due to usage (electron migration), and operation at high temperatures (cpu - an increase of 10 deg C will cut component life in half - approximation, it varies) rather than hot/cold cycles."


 * My Tcase spec at this load level is 73C maximum. My operating temperature with an AVX2 BOINC load across eight threads at 4.7 GHz @ 1.320V on an i7-4790K (1.300 VID setting in UEFI) is a running average of 58C with a hottest of 68C at an ambient of 23C.  Many motherboards will actually ship with voltages higher than mine AT STOCK as well.  Only idiots do more than just mild overclocks on a heatsink.  Why do you think water AIO units are the #1 solution for people building more than just a commodity PC?  Intel played it smart with the K-SKU chips.  Yes, they are a bit more expensive, it kinda keeps the masses of morons from buying them in the first place.  What you didn't get at the time you wrote this is that overclocking has a goal of the highest speed at the lowest voltage to be 24/7 stable for that speed suitable for long-term use with that architecture. The second goal is to do so at the lowest possible temperature.  You can't even give away a chassis that doesn't have internal watercooling mountpoints these days, I toss them in the garbage, or cut them up and mod the hell out of them.  With the Intel gap issue, half the time, you have to even delid the stock S-SKU chips to get them down to decent temperatures, and use one of the liquid TIM options using Gallium and Gallium/Indium alloys to emulate the solder that they can no longer use because they shrunk the dies so far that the soldering process has low yield due to it cracking the dies.  This article assumes that overclockers are the stereotype of the kid elsewhere in this Talk page asking about refigerators...  Idiots.  My shit runs cooler than the ECL chips used in the CDC Cyber 176's I started my adult computer career on, and is infinitely more reliable.  You need and the others here need to get past the stereotypes, it's like this whole page was written by christians, so full of inaccuracy and half-truths, their trademark.  I wouldn't hire one of them for that reason, or pretty much all but a few people that have contributed to this article that play the same game (that few includes one or two of the people on the cons side too).  69.49.217.158 (talk) 15:01, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Among other sources.

- Comment : More serious in hot regions where air conditioners (for cooling) are commonly used. It is generally accepted (sources from data center managers) that the increased thermal load in watts x 3 = total increase in power consumption due to cooling system ineffencies.
 * Increased clock speeds and sometimes voltages results in higher power consumption and a higher power bill.

Could be mitigated by clock throttling - see: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:p1mEUrOBRVoJ:www.amd.com/us-en/assets/content_type/white_papers_and_tech_docs/Power_Cooling_Datacenter_34146A.pdf+datacenter+increase+thermal+load+increase+power+watts&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&client=opera

AMD PowerNow! technology enhances the energy consumption performance of these devices with multiple levels of lower clock speed and voltage, reducing power consumption by as much as 43 percent while under an approximate 60 percent load and as much as 75 percent during idle times

The clock rates may be dynamically adjusted via utilities like RMClock, which detects system load and adjustes the multiplier and Vcore accordingly. Example: I'm running an Opteron 146 at 1175Mhz@0.825v now. This would consume less power and produce less heat than its stock 2Ghz@1.35v. I can ramp it up to a full overclocked speed of 2.95Ghz@1.425v when gaming. However -> More work, requires stability test for all permutations/steps.


 * While systems may be throughly tested for stability before usage, stability problems may surface after prolonged usage due to an unusual workload or untested portions of the processor core. Although this is rare, such incidents may result in data loss.

-- Changed to drive motor - the drive would likely has integrated regulators to cater to varying voltages that various psus supply.
 * Not every component of a computer is overclockable; for example, hard drive platters can have an increased rpm rate by overvolting the drive, but this often leads to the destruction of the drive; or hard drive corruption. Where hard drive read/write rate is the bottleneck, as it often is, overclocking brings little or no speed advantage. There are also cases in which overclocking is possible, but the risk of doing so is unacceptable (as in the hard drive example, where any possibility of data loss cannot be tolerated).

Disadvantages of Overclocking by Novices

 * Increasing the operation frequency of a component increase its thermal output in a linear fashion, while an increase in voltage causes an expodential increase. Furthermore, physics dictate that higher temperatures results in a higher resistance. Improperly managed, a novice may cause chip temperatures to rise so quickly that a permament decrease in life expectancy or irreverisible damage is caused to the chip.
 * With the advent of ever wider ranges of voltage options on motherboards, the risk of fire or burns is not tiny. The chip itself, or power mofsets may burn and capacitors may burst.

--Comment For example some a64 motherboards include the option of vCore of 2v, HTT of 400, vMem of 4v, etc. 202.156.6.54 04:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Electron migration is dependent upon the conductor, whether, copper, filament, silicon etc. Although comparison of an lightbulb with a cpu is ok, in details, the electron migration differs based on many things, two important ones, the conductor material and the type of current, whether AC or DC. If you studied silicons heat capacity and also silicons heat dissipation, you would understand that there is no easy way of overclocking an silicon chip without affecting life. The only way overclocking can be done safely, without affecting the life is if the cooling was done core deep. But generally, yes, if cooling is done right, the CPU's life will be longer, but there is NO WAY of overclocking and cooling without affecting lifecycle unless you want to go against modern day physics. --Sina 19:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Processor life can be reduced by up to 50%.Can anyone link to the source of this?--DarknessEcko (talk) 09:39, 19 January 2010 (UTC)