Talk:Owney Madden

Further anti-Irish bias
Page reversion. I can’t keep undoing the same acts of vandalism on this page that have plagued it for years without help. There is a regular attempt to paint Owen Madden (a member of my family) as an “English” figure. To make it abundantly clear, for the reasons given again and again and again, ..Owen Madden was born in Leeds but he was not remotely “English”. Nor did he have a “Yorkshire accent”, nor did he die longing to see Mother England. To make it clear to our American contributors: anti-Irish sentiment in the north of England is still hugely prevalent. The direct result is that any person of any remotely British connection who is Irish has their ethnic and social origins wiped out. Cf the Duke of Wellington, Kitchener, etc.

In simple terms, Owen Madden was a New York Irish gangster. That’s the only meaningful identity he ever had, and it defined him.

As a result I’ve had to restore an earlier version of the article. If it keeps happening I’ll request it be locked until this stops.


 * His own Wife said he had a broad Yorkshire accent. He collected newspaper clippings of the Yorkshire Evening Post, wore a flat-cap and regularly corresponded with family in Yorkshire and sent food parcels to them in Leeds during the war. People that met him, his contemporaries, said he spoke with a Yorkshire accent and infact loved his hometown, aswell as Ireland.
 * I'm also of Irish descent, but you need to get over yourself and stop playing the victim and trying to edit the reality of historical figures like Owney.86.7.140.64 (talk) 20:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Hes got a Yorkshire accent in Boardwalk Empire. How'd you like THEM apples? 82.5.65.255 (talk) 14:50, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Early Years
This article relies so heavily on a single, puerile, so-called "biography" of Madden that the article itself reads like some nickel and dime crime novella. I've edited out the nutty references to his supposed Englishness for the simple reason that A) where he was born is irrelevant, and B) none of the material on his place of birth is even certain. What IS certain, is that if you'd called Owen Madden "English" to his face the chances are he would have paid someone to shoot you; Owen Madden's entire life was framed by the fact that the only people he could rely on were his fellow Irish-Catholics. He, along with all Irish who grew up in the North of England, faced incredibly violent anti-Irish and anti-Catholic riots and constant abuse - to suggest he even remotely cared for England or Englishness is therefore a complete joke. The man ended up in Hell's Kitchen with his own kind, not in the Hamptons sipping Gin & Tonic reading The Daily Telegraph. Nown's book was aimed at dunces and doesn't deserve to be classified as a biography at all. I had to laugh when I read that it was suggested a 9-year old arrival to Hell's Kitchen in New York City somehow managed to maintain a "Yorkshire drawl" for the next 60 years of his life in America. Owen Madden had a typical New York accent that in no way differed from anyone else who arrived in the place as a 9-year old kid. I'll keep an eye on this article and keep editing out these incredulous bits of drivel until it actually resembles an article about a New York historical figure as opposed to Boy's Own Hero romp. If Owen Madden was "from" anywhere he was "from" a background of fiercely anti-Irish vitriol which taught him to trust his own kind and to go out and take what he wanted instead of being pushed around for the rest of his life. Owen Madden was, in this regard, an Irish-American gangster, and that's all you need to know about his class and ethnic background.Iamlondon (talk) 00:25, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I remember many years ago reading (or maybe being told) that Owney Madden was a Yorkshireman from Leeds, searching the web also produced some bios saying he was from Leeds - | encyclopediaofarkansas

The register of births for 1890 - 1894 has a single Owen Madden (no middle name or initial) who's birth was registered in Leeds during the Jan/Feb/Mar period of 1892 - folio 9b page 412, this would tally with reported dates of birth 18th or 25th Dec 1891.

The 1901 census has a single entry for Owen Madden, born between 1889 and 1895 and this gives him as a 10 year old "inmate" of 26 Springfield Terrace, Leeds, Yorkshire (born in Leeds). I don't know if the term "inmate" implies a criminal incarceration but it would be indicative of his future career. The report also mentions Owen's older brother Martin as living at the same address. 1901 census image

There are some bios on the web which also list a middle name either Vincent or Victor. I found an Owen Victor Madder born in 1890 in Marylebone, London. Maybe this is the source of the middle name confusion ? JohnShep 17:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The 1891 UK census (RG12/3690 Folio 12 Page 6), taken 8 months prior to Madden's birth, shows this for his family at 25 Somerset St:
 * Francis Madden 23 Navvy born Leeds Yorkshire
 * Mary Madden 22 born Leeds Yorkshire
 * Martin Madden son 2 ditto
 * Bride Madden daughter 10 months ditto (Retiringtype 20:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC))

The 1881 UK census has this probable sighting of Madden's father Francis and his family (RG11/4487 Folio 34 Page 11)at 3 Barkers Court - which appears to be a very Irish enclave:
 * Martin Madden 32 General Labourer born Leeds Yorkshire
 * Mary Madden 31 born Leeds Yorkshire
 * Francis Madden 14 ditto
 * Thomas Madden 11 ditto
 * Patrick Madden 10 ditto
 * Martin Madden 7  ditto
 * Mary A. Madden 5 ditto
 * Michael Madden 3 ditto
 * Margaret Madden 10 months ditto (Retiringtype 20:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC))

The alien immigrants manifest of the Oceanic (departing Liverpool, England 16 January 1901) shows Mary Madden apparently travelling alone. Her details are: age 32 years 6 months; marital status W ( "m" has been overwritten); nationality English, last residence Leeds; fare paid by sister; she is going to join relative Mrs O'Neil of 352 10th Avenue NY;first visit to US; no money on her ( "few shillings" has been crossed out) (Retiringtype 17:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC))

The manifest of the Teutonic dep Liverpool 4 June 1902 shows Owen, Martin and Maria Madden travelling to join their mother Mary at 352 10th Avenue, their fare paid by her. Their nationality is stated as Irish. (Retiringtype 17:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC))

The 1910 US census shows the Maddens still living with Mary's sister Elizabeth O'Neil at 352 10th Avenue and confirms that Owen's parents were born in England, that Mary came to the US in 1901 and the children in 1902. Owen (18) and his brother Martin (20) were employed as brakemen on the railroad, Mary working as a domestic. Mary is mother of 5 children of which 3 survive. (Retiringtype 06:23, 23 February 2007 (UTC))

On Madden's federal draft registration card from 1917 when he is an inmate of Auburn Prison he claims to be married with one child (this tallies with the reference in Nown page 27 to his 1911 marriage to Dorothy 'Loretta' Rogers with whom he had a daughter Margaret)(Retiringtype 08:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC))

"Mary lived with her widowed sister on 10th Avenue in New York and sent for her children in 1902, a year after she’d moved. By then, Owen was 10, and Leeds was part of him. For the rest of his life he’d keep a Leeds accent and collect clippings from the Yorkshire Post. Until the 1950s, when the FBI threatened him with deportation, he had a British passport." If he only gave up his passport when threatened with deportation in his 50's and collected clippings of the Yorkshire post, was born and raised in Leeds (to an Irish family) then why on Earth would you say he would be ashamed to be British? Yorkshire is famed for it's regional pride and identity aswell. 86.2.213.25 (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Nationality
- His dad was from Mayo, Ireland. His mum was from Sligo, Ireland. But do take a look at the obessive racial nonsense below... Owen Madden was an Irish-Catholic, as were both his parents, as was virtually everyone he grew up with, was educated with, lived with, and trusted. To suggest he was English in any sense is complete rubbish and only reflects a deep ignorance of how Irish immigrants lived, and were treated, in Victorian Britain. British society in the north of England especially, did everything it possibly could to mock, despise, and isolate Irish-Catholic immigrants. The result was the appearance of massive Irish ghettos in most of the cities of the UK. People living in these communities continued to live relatively separate lives even up until the 1980s in some cases. That certain readers have latched onto Madden's geographical birthplace in order to claim him as an Englishman reflects merely their own romantic love affair with gangsterism and not a love for stark, cold realities. I mean, for the love of God...if he was so damned English why did he set up an Irish gang in New York, spend his entire life in the Irish criminal underworld, and never make any attempt whatsoever to ingratiate himself with New York's Wasp-English community?? Because he was an Irish New York Immigrant, that's why.Iamlondon (talk) 00:33, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Unibond (talk) 09:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC) Interesting but is there evidence for this ? according to their birth certificates both of Madden's parents were born in Leeds Unibond (talk) 09:04, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

I have changed to English to reflect the facts so far, however I have added possibly Irish extraction as I believe both Madden and O'Neil (his mothers maiden name) are Irish surnames and Owney claimed it himself, of course there is the possibility he only did this to integrate with the Irish gangs in Hell's Kitchen. JohnShep 15:30, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Boxing's bulls
Someone wrote: "Between them, they controlled the careers of the top five boxing champions including Rocky Marciano, Max Baer, and Primo Carnera. As Primo Carnera's manager, Madden arranged fixed fights which led eventually to Carnera's winning the NBA World Heavyweight Championship in 1933. Carnera held onto the title for nearly a year, until suspicions from reporters about fixed fights led to Madden deserting the Italian strongman, setting up Carnera's famous defeat at the hands of Max Baer on June 14, 1934." I need to know your sources, where did you take those lines. Thanks. Jack 15:30, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Early life and the Gopher Gang
Question: Did Owney give up his British passport in the 1950's or when he was in his 50's? Since he took US citizenship in 1943, it seems likely that he was in his 50's when he gave up the passport. This needs to be corrected on his bio page. 155.82.249.253 (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:OMadden.jpg
Image:OMadden.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:OMadden.jpg
Image:OMadden.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Pretty Poor
As a direct relation of the man I have to confess I find this 'article' pretty poor. Unfortunately it is dogged by what I suspect is a bias to paint Owen as some 'English Godfather' when he was nothing of the sort and would have been horrified by the obsession with documenting his roots in Leeds/Liverpool. That he made his name by associating with the Irish of the US is a paramount fact in both his rise to power and his view of himself.

Furthermore, where are Jack Diamond, Hymie Weiss et al?!

May I suggest one of you goes out and at least buys "Paddy Whacked" by T.J English. Although it is rather romantic it offers more factual information than is on offer here.Iamlondon (talk) 17:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I also am a relative of Owney's,my maternal grandfather was Arthur O'Neill's son who was Oweny's 1st cousin.My great aunty remembers during the 2nd war he used to send over big food parcels for my great gran & grandad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.15.249 (talk) 00:53, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced information
Article has been tagged for needing sources long-term. Feel free to reinsert the below material with appropriate references. DonIago (talk) 13:33, 11 April 2019 (UTC)