Talk:Pākehā/Archive 1

=Archive 1: September 2005 to December 2006=

Book Titles
I am removing the macrons from the words p&#257;keh&#257; used in M. King's two book titles. Although I generally agree with the use of the macron, a book title should be spelt as published. Both books mentioned were published without the macron used in their names. http://www.penguin.co.nz/nf/Search/QuickSearchProc/1,,being%20pakeha,00.html?id=being%20pakeha. Following the links will allow one to see the actual spelling from the book covers. Stormrose

PC Nonsense?
What an unnecessary idea. Offensive PC nonsense.


 * You mean the article or the word? Bastie 10:36, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * As a Pakeha New Zealander, I have to completely disagree that the term is PC nonsense (and believe me, I really really hate PC bullshit). The term has a lot of relevance within the New Zealand context. --GringoInChile 00:55, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's what I don't understand. Is it a racial or a cultural thing? If you've got African or East Asian ancestors but you've grown up entirely in New Zealand and follow "standard" NZ Pakeha cultural norms (in sports, music, food, etc.) are you Pakeha? Doops | talk 05:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Strictly speaking they would be Pākehā, in the sense that the term means 'non-Māori'. But realistically, no they wouldn't, as Pākehā has come to mean the settlers to New Zealand of European extraction --Heyseuss 10:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * As a Pakeha myself I've always thought of it as a racial thing, denoting New Zealanders of European descent. However Pakeha have developed their own cultural identity that has been adopted many New Zealanders, both Maori and "New" New Zealanders. This includes wearing stubbies, putting tomato sauce on everything and backyard and beach cricket. I will always consider myself a Pakeha, not a British or European New Zealand as i believe this imply connections that should no longer exsit. Although this is completely off topic, I am in fact (and i know Adrian Work won't like this) a Republican. New Zealand doesn't need nor want a monarch on the other side off the world. User: HistoryKiwi


 * But if it's a racial category, then what about all the New Zealanders who are neither Paheka nor Maori? Doops | talk 00:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think most people in NZ would consider it a racial or ethic category. Indeed, it isn't uncommon to see Pakeha as an racial/ethnic option. If you're not Pakeha or Maori, you might be a Pacific Islander, South Asian, East Asian (or sometimes seperated into Chinese, Japanese, Korean), South-east Asian, African, whatever. Nil Einne 14:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The Anglican Church of New Zealand, however, appears to see it as a cultural term: . Doops | talk 22:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

The term 'Pakeha' is racist.
The term 'Pakeha' is actually a very racist term. I have never liked the use of the term, so I strongly identify myself as being a 'British New Zealander', because my ancestry is British (Scots) & I am very pro-British in sentiment anyway. - (Aidan Work 06:50, 28 November 2005 (UTC))


 * You may consider it a racist term. I personally don't find it racist or offensive as do a fair number of Pakeha like me... Nil Einne 14:52, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Don't state that first sentence like it is fact Aidan, that is your opinion. Personally, I identify myself as Pākehā, I don't identify as NZ European. --Heyseuss 10:54, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

ew i hate being refered to a british new zealander. people like that should go back to britain. Pakeha is the new us!


 * I'm a British New Zealander. I don't identify as a Pakeha and don't care much for Pakeha culture.  I was born in the UK and still identify with my native culture and the first time I experienced Pakeha homelife was when I flatted with one.  We're very different cultures.  As for Pakeha being an offensive term, I don't believe that it is at all. Enzedbrit 00:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * it is not racist term, but i hate being called a Pākehā and always call my self a New Zealand European Bigkev

The term Pakeha is offensive. Some historians and linguists say that it is a broad term to describe anyone of non-maori descent in New Zealand, but that is not the way it is popularly used. In my experience it is used almost exclusively as a blanket term for white people. It's no different to calling an dark skinned person a Nigger. If the people of primarily european descent in New Zealand came up with a name for Maori that had had nothing to do with their culture, I seriously doubt that they would appreciate it.
 * But it is to do with our culture. We are New Zealand Europeans. As New Zealand Europeans, we identify with our New Zealand cultural heritage which includes Maori. While you have a right to take offense from the use of the term to describe you, comparing it to nigger is just plain ludicrious. It has neither the historical background nor the implied offensiveness. Perhaps you should investigate the Pakeha and Nigger articles before you make such offensive comments. Nil Einne 09:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

A matter or Perception.
Racist or not it's how you perceive the word. The facts are it is the historical name for our early European ancestors. Of course it is used almost exclusively as a blanket term for white people because Europeans were the only peoples coming here at the time. And yes there is a blanket name used to describe the indigenous people, it is "Maori". Prior to the common use of the word by Europeans the original "natives or indians" as they were written about described themselves by their tribal names. If you want to take the word literally as it means "belonging" (as in belonging to NZ) you could apply it to anyone born in New Zealand regardless of ancestry. Johnwill.

Racist?
omg i cant believe people are bickering about their identity on an online encyclopedia! Get over yourselves and just stick to the kaupapa. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia of facts, not opinions. Pakeha is not an English word. But it is a uniquely New Zealand concept. Pakeha is a very specific term which describes European, and more specifically, British people in New Zealand.

Many Maori do not use the term Pakeha to refer to non-Maori people, only to people of European descent. Islanders (who are also called whanaunga), Asians and others are 'Tauiwi'. The word tauiwi is used in the Maori language to describe non-Maori. Pakeha are tauiwi, but not all tauiwi are Pakeha.

The word Pakeha has evolved to incorporate a uniquely 'Kiwi' culture, unique from Europeans in Europe, so Why the insult? It is not PC-ness, it is the Maori language. Embrace it e hoa, and stop being so Eurocentric. Know where you live. Aotearoa is a Pacific country with a Maori heritage.

Tamatoa 16:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * British people in New Zealand can identify themselves however they wish. Anyone can identify themselves however they wish.  If one wishes to identify with one's European heritage, that shouldn't be discouraged.  If it is, then every other culture with which one identifies should be discouraged?  Eurocentric?  That's a very unfortunate and racist view to take.  Many people do identify as Pakeha, and fair play to them.  Many others are proud of their roots and identify specifically with those roots.  In this democracy, one is allowed to think that way. Enzedbrit 02:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to create separate articles
I think the word "Pakeha" got stuck back in the 19th century - by the time of the Polynesian and Asian immigration of the latter 20th century Maori were generally speaking English. They, like us, knew these new immigrants primarily as Tongan, Samoan, Fijian, Japanese, Chinese, Indian - not Pakeha; so the word Pakeha doesn't really have any mileage at all in relation to those groups. I think it would be fair to pin down a definition of Pakeha to naturalised "NZ Europeans" in terms of its useage by the English-speaking NZ population.

However, I must say that I was very suprised to be redirected to "Pakeha" after searching "NZ European". I do think an article on an ethnic group should be defined according to that group's language and culture. And you will find "NZ European" on the census forms of the last 50 years - not Pakeha. Maori would be highly insulted if we expected them to refer to themselves as "natives" - where is our dignity NZ Europe? I understand there will be people who desire to severe their identity with Europe and/or Britain, but if that is you then why not be a bit more creative and use your own language to come up with a name for yourselves? What is wrong with "New Zealander" anyway?

I propose that separate articles be created for "New Zealand European", "Pakeha" and, if desired, "New Zealander" (which could be merged with, or related to, Kiwi (people)). The "New Zealand European" article would actually describe the role of "NZ European" identity and culture as the dominant hegemonic force in the cultural life and history of our country. The "Pakeha" article would be focused on what that word means to Maori rather than to Non-Maori (preferably written by a Maori), with a section on its use by Non-Maori. The "New Zealander" article would describe the attempts at creating a NZer/Kiwi/Pakeha culture apart from any European or British identity.User:A.J.Chesswas 8 July 2006, 02:48 (NZT)


 * I absoloutely agree. New Zealand European is nearly the same as Pakeha. There are some that would disagree with that statement, but according to modern usage, it is the same. (To put it harshly: So for those people that say they are not NZ Euro, they are Pakeha, too bad you are both, and vice versa. Get over it.) However, seeing this is the English Wikipedia, I think the main article should be New Zealand European. The Pakeha article should either redirect to a section in the NZ European article, or perhaps remain a separate article.--219.89.17.68 12:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Breaking down the word Pākehā
I've just removed this silly breakdown into Pā Kē and Hā. It was misguided and added nothing. In Maori (as in English) some words are compound words - but not all of them. --Snori 21:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

And I've put it back because you obviously don't understand the relevance to the truth and importance in history. Johnwill 13:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC) Removed again. Hint, if none of the reference material supports this approach then it's probably wrong - or at the very least Original Research.

Usage
As the intro to the article states, many Māori interpret the word Pākehā to mean non-Māori. There was an interesting article in the New Zealand Herald today, The Kingitanga represents our history - and future, by Dr Rawiri Taonui who heads Māori and Indigenous Studies at University of Canterbury. He was reflecting on the life of Te Arikinui Dame Te Atairangikaahu who was buried yesterday. He wrote that "Dame Te Ata was better known to foreign Pakeha than native ones". Just an observation. Moriori 00:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * For reference, the NZH article is online, but it's "premium content" - i.e. they charge money to let you view it. -- Avenue 00:46, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

English speakers
The info box says that 97.8% of Pākehā (NZ European) speak English, which I found surprisingly low. The figure has clearly been calculated from the table which is referenced in the link next to the figure. In this Census 2001 table, English speakers has been divided by Total People for NZ Europeans. However, closer examination of the table shows that Total People include 54762 people who are too young to speak. If they are excluded, then the true value comes out as 99.9%. Which figure should be quoted? GringoInChile 14:38, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I just got a headache trying to get my head around that.
 * Short Answer: Leave 97.8%
 * Long Answer: Although those 54762 people can probably speak English now, there will always be a certain number of people at any given time who are two young to speak. The real question is do we include these babies in the percentage? I would say yes. A Census is a snapshot of a single point in time, and at that time, a certain number of people could not speak English (or any language). The fact that they are too young has no bearing on the issue - they are still NZ Europeans and should be recorded with the rest of the NZ Europeans, therefore 97.8% of Pākehā can speak English. Just my two cents. Roue2 21:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. While it's technically true that only 97.8% of NZ Europeans could speak English, it is more relevant to give the percentage excluding infants (99.9%), with a note saying that's what we've done. -- Avenue 02:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Can we be sure that all those infants would grow up to speak english? -- Roue2 03:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to create separate articles II
Now that stats have been included in this article, thanks to the ethnic groups project, it is time to create separate articles for "NZ European" and "Pakeha". As I have alluded to earlier on this talk page, self-determination is essential to the identity of an ethnic group, and further, the name of a group should surely aspire to be as meaningful as possible. "Other" is essentially what Pakeha means, and that is totally inappropriate as a form of identifying a group. "NZ European" meaningfully comminucates the nature of that ethnic group, unlike the ambiguity of Pakeha (does it include Asians and Polynesians or not?). You hear "New Zealand European", you can expect to meet people who look and act European, with a colonial bent. You hear "Pakeha", all you know is you're expecting someone who isn't Maori. I'm going to begin work on creating a separate article, and should have this done in a few days. Even if it's just a paragraph with the statistical table. "NZ European" will discuss factual details of the ethnic group, "Pakeha" will discuss the origin, history and meaning of that term. User:A.J.Chesswas 16:54, 30 October 2006 (NZST)