Talk:P-22

Feedback from New Page Review process
I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thanks for creating the article!.

&maltese; SunDawn &maltese;    (contact)   03:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 December 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Tol  (talk &#124; contribs) @ 02:15, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

P-22 (mountain lion) → P-22 – Per WP:SMALLDETAILS, this seems to be the primary topic for "P-22" (rather than "P22" or any other variation). -- Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 07:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. None of the other entries on the P22 dab page have the hyphen. Tevildo (talk) 08:44, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. Seems reasonable per WP:SMALLDETAILS. As long as the hat note linking to P22 is kept, I don't see it causing any issues. Endwise (talk) 12:00, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Shwcz (talk) 16:57, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose not helpful to readers who aren't familiar with mountain lions. In ictu oculi (talk) 19:13, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * There's no expectation that an article's name will be recognizable—just that it will be unambiguous and, in most cases, will be the most common name. Any undisambiguated title for a biography or place, for instance, will usually tell you nothing about what the article's about. And that's by design. Disambiguators in titles are there to disambiguate, not to function as even shorter short descriptions. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 23:59, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Support – clearly the right move per WP:SMALLDETAILS. Agree with above on keeping the hatnote. ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 03:13, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

LA TIMES ARTICLE & OTHERS LIKE IT
could someone PLEASE remove the article referenced from the LA Times? i'm not enough of an editor to go in & make the changes regarding that particular article. all references should be accessible without asking for payment to read the article. my understanding of wiki, is, anything used as a reference, etc., cannot request payment for their 'product'. this is exactly what's going on when the LA Times requests you purchase a subscription to read the referenced article, as well as a number of other *newspapers*, which includes the Washington Post and the NY Times. there are plenty of FREE websites/pages to access and add an article as a reference, without abusing any copywrites. i was able to access 3 different websites with 5 different stories regarding P-22s recent life and death in the past week or so. three from the NY Post, one from NPR/WHYY & one from Calif Fish & Wildlife website. the last 2 website articles should have been used instead. bratdeneen 2601:47:102:1220:5DB1:5FEE:2DF:60CE (talk) 08:02, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Paywalled sources are allowed. Please see WP:PAYWALL. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she&#124;they&#124;xe) 08:18, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
 * You can bypass it, and just because you can't view it doesn't mean we should remove it, especially since they're reliable sources. reppoptalk 21:43, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Moving the Name section to a note
I moved the Name section to a note in the In Los Angeles section. It's good information but each of the included sentences seems better suited for a note. The first is about the numbering scheme in the NPS puma study, which is about the study not P-22. The second is about a KPCC poll which is interesting but (1) KPCC didn't really have any authority to change the name and (2) the conclusion was to not change its name, so including it in the body text is akin to including something like, "some people thought of clever names and cat puns." Noting here in case there are disagreements. - Procyonidae (talk) 18:17, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

The famous (copyrighted) picture of him
The 2013 picture of P-22 with the Hollywood Sign, taken by Steve Winter for National Geographic, is absolutely iconic and famous. It's also copyrighted. I'm trying to argue it's fair use. It can be minimized by not being the infobox image, but it is famous and a key part of P-22's story.


 * Sources calling it "iconic":
 * PR Newswire says "Nature photographer Steve Winter arranged to capture P-22 in the mountain lion's new Griffith Park habitat. After 15 months, he was rewarded with the now iconic image of P-22, with the Hollywood Sign behind his shoulders, which graced National Geographic Magazine in December of 2013."
 * ABC News says "his celebrity was solidified when he appeared in a National Geographic feature with an iconic photo of the big cat on an LA hillside with the Hollywood sign in the background."
 * Earth Island Journal calls it "Steve Winter’s now iconic camera trap photo of P-22 with the Hollywood sign in the backdrop"


 * Sources saying the photo is integral to P-22's fame.
 * National Geographic article titled "How this photo turned a reclusive mountain lion into a Hollywood icon"
 * BBC says, "The big cat captured the imagination of famed nature photographer Steve Winter, who set up a camera trap beneath the Hollywood sign. He waited over a year before P-22 sauntered into the frame. The photo got a spread in National Geographic, and a star was born."
 * People magazine says "A National Geographic photographer managed to capture a now-famous shot of the mountain lion in front of the Hollywood sign."
 * UPI says "a mountain lion that became famous after a viral photo showed the feline illuminated by the Hollywood sign"
 * WPR says "some of his greatest hits including: posing for a now-famous photoshoot by the Hollywood Sign"

Eievie (talk) 19:26, 19 December 2022 (UTC)


 * idk about the fair use case re: copyright but maybe someone at nat geo would release the image for posting -- 64.183.43.127 (talk) 01:20, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The Los Angeles Public Library issued a special edition P-22 library card that uses the Steve Winter photo. Could a photo of someone's library card be considered fair use for this page, e.g. in the legacy section? It might fall under Derivative works but just pasting the LAPL logo on top and printing it on a plastic card might not be "containing sufficient new, creative content". - Procyonidae (talk) 20:17, 22 February 2023 (UTC)