Talk:P. J. Crook

Clearly cited good-faith contribution
Material from has been removed, per WP's policies regarding close paraphrasing, quotation, and respect for copyright. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 12:23, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This source was clearly cited, so that the introduction of the material was a good-faith contribution. The material should be rewritten in an editor's "own words" so that it cannot be viewed as a paraphrase. Please continue to contribute to Wikipedia!
 * Kiefer .Wolfowitz 19:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:17, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

P. J. Crook → P J Crook – Her professional name is "P J Crook", which lacks periods. See her website:

Kiefer .Wolfowitz 10:16, 9 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. The linked-to website does not work. What is the last part of the website? "www.pjcrook_____/Home_page.html" It's not ".com" or ".co.uk", but I haven't tried every possible domain. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:01, 11 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Try this:, which I just loaded on a moving train in Sweden.  Kiefer .Wolfowitz 22:06, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just found it via google at http://www.pjcrook.com/pjcrook/Home_page.html Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:07, 11 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment. According to the WP Manual of Style on initials in personal names, "An initial should be followed by a full stop and a non-breaking space". The current name conforms with that recommendation. I don't think there's really a meaningful distinction between "P. J. Crook" and "P J Crook" apart from one of grammatical style. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:14, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "P J Crook" is not an abbreviation---it is the artist's presentation of herself to the world. The WP:MOS covers abbreviations not one-letter first-or-middle names. For example Roger J-B Wets not only presents himself sans periods but actually had his name legally declared to be Roger J-B Wets (no periods). Kiefer .Wolfowitz 22:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read the full manual, which is linked from your link. The name "MC Hammer" is used an example. There is no recommendation that his name be "M.C. Hammer". Kiefer .Wolfowitz 22:34, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "MC" in "MC Hammer" are not initials for first and middle given names, as here. In this case, the person's full name is "Pamela June Crook"—initialized to "P. J. Crook" or "P J Crook" for professional purposes. Whether or not we use fullstops or no fullstops looks to me like an issue of grammatical convention which is addressed quite directly by the manual of style. It's quite common for British people to omit the full stops in initialized names—most British writers would be quite comfortable doing it either way, I suspect—but WP has taken a uniform approach on this particular issue, as far as I can see. (I imagine this has been discussed before, and I'm looking around for a discussion to reference.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Please look around. The uniform policy has so far respected the name of Roger J-B Wets, for example. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 23:19, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I have "looked around", and I'm reasonably familiar with much of what WP contains. Roger J-B Wets is not the greatest example, because he has adopted the hyphen-between-initials name format, which is certainly non-standard. (I also note that the name of the article has never been formally discussed at Talk:Roger J-B Wets, so just because the article exists there doesn't mean it conforms with what consensus might dictate.) There are also examples that run counter to what you have suggested—such as K. C. S. Paniker, who as an Indian artist never placed full stops behind his initials. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:26, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose I'm all for consistency of the "X. Y. Lastname" type--I've personally moved hundreds of articles for the past six years based on this convention. The MOS does allow for non-standardized spelling, capitalization, and orthography at times, but generally not with initials. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I think if we had unanimity in the sources, it would be one thing, but I can find references for the use of both formats; that's one reason I think this is just a choice of convention rather than an integral feature of the name. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:31, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose There is no good reason for ignoring the MOS just because the person happens to market herself with a particular orthography. E. E. Cummings is the closest example - his name was legally changed to e.e. cummings (or so claims our article), and many people still try to change Wikipedia content about him to follow suit, but consensus says otherwise. (And this one has been discussed at great length, over and over again). I'm also persuaded by Good Ol'Factory's point that the change (and contradiction of the usual style on English Wikipedia) serves no purpose when it's obvious who is being referred to - we don't worry that Sting's Wikipedia entry has the phrase "(musician)" after it, when his promotional material (thus far) doesn't. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:48, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Do any of you write articles? Who cares what Demiurge1000 or Koavf opine? Kiefer .Wolfowitz 09:52, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Response Why yes, I do: User:Koavf/Template:Contributions. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:11, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Addendum A Featured article I co-wrote, three Good Articles I wrote. A small handful which I have substantially revised. And to answer your second question, I don't know. What's your point? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:17, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * That is more editing than you've done lately. Congratulations on your FA and GA collaborations. It seems that your copyediting was a valuable contribution (of which I cite only the first). Your GA on the Eno & Byrne collaboration was very interesting; I suppose you know both have collaborated with Robert Fripp, with Byrne using a pseudonym for some vocals. I have praised Demiurge1000 for fixing the spacing around periods and footnotes before, also.  Kiefer .Wolfowitz 10:34, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really I'm in the middle of New Multitudes, We All Raise Our Voices to the Air, Underwater Sunshine, MTV Unplugged (10,000 Maniacs album), and Mermaid Avenue: The Complete Sessions. I also wrote ETHWHT, which is GA and I've nominated for FA several times. As far as Eno's catalogue, I'm pretty ignorant. If you want to know more about my edits, it's pretty well laid out on my user page. I generally don't write copy because I'm not good at it and if I do, it's possible that it's list-type articles (e.g. the FL George Orwell bibliography and Member states of the United Nations), but I do work on some prose. Since I'm not good at it, I generally avoid it. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose - this is an encyclopedia. Pamela June Crook or initials. And also can't see any evidence that Roger J-B Wets mentioned above is a legal name or WP:RS name, it is Roger J-B. Wets in sources.In ictu oculi (talk) 15:31, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You posted one source with "J-B." while his article lists about 6 reliable sources with "J-B", including his c.v., his bio, his homepage, his book with Rockafellar. You also have no clue about his profession, having written that he is a "programmer", so why don't you remember how little you know the next time you are tempted to write something so stupid. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 23:25, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Hello Kiefer.Wolfowitz, you invited editors here to look at Roger J-B Wets, personal attacks at Talk:Roger J-B Wets are uncalled for. Please see WP:RS as to what counts as a source on Wikipedia. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:37, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * @in ictu oculi,
 * You did introduce howlers, so you cannot know what you are talking about or you don't care but in any case your behavior was negligent and fatuous. The in-line statements that awarded Wets the most prestigious prizes in his profession spell his name correctly, so why did you keep spouting bullshit?
 * (I trust that the linking helps you, as much as WP:RS helps me.)
 * Sincerely, Kiefer .Wolfowitz 13:22, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Dear Kiefer. To be honest my main reaction to all the adjectives and colourful language here, there, and who knows elsewhere, is that anyone would get so dogmatic about a bio stub and yet not have checked the public record PhD database to find out the name they were arguing about. I'd restore this to normality but don't want to go to WP:2RR over such trifles. Ciao baby :) In ictu oculi (talk) 15:02, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Like previous writings, your first English phrase is not a sentence, so I have trouble responding.
 * Restoring your OR would have been a mistake, because its permissible content was properly incorporated in the sentence about the thesis. Thanks for making one contribution to the article. Your speculations about country of birth, birth-name, etc., lacked references, and so were deleted, per WP:RS and WP:BLP. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 15:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose move. That leaves me guessing whether the "one contribution" you're thanking me for over at Roger J-B Wets is (1) the name of the subject of the article, (2) the year of birth, (3) his PhD thesis, - basic additions which were greeted with such colourful and plentiful language and fonts. But none of that changes that back here, according to the WP Manual of Style on initials in personal names, "An initial should be followed by a full stop and a non-breaking space". So the current name P. J. Crook conforms with MOS. What else does anyone need to say. Oppose move. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:49, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * You just cited your one contribution, forgetting to mention your fabrication of his birthplace, nationality, occupation ("programmer"), birth-name, etc. 15:58, 13 March 2012 (UTC)~
 * Well, whatever, the article now has the subject's name, year of birth, and thesis, all sourced. I have no idea where someone got the "raised in Belgium" bit from, but I wouldn't accuse them of fabricating it. Good bye. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:06, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read page three of Aardal, already cited in that paragraph, to learn that Wets attended high school and worked for the family business while earning his licenciate in applied economics. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 16:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Question Shouldn't it be PJ Crook (with no spaces) - That seems to be what all the news sources use...This is Gloucester, This is Bristol, BBC, Telegraph, even Horse and Hound.  WormTT   &middot; &#32;(talk) 10:12, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, surely, if her professional name is PJ Crook, then that'd be her common name as she is best known professionally. Therefore, that'd be the sensible place to have the article.  WormTT   &middot; &#32;(talk) 10:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Like P. D. James, I believe this article should stay where it is – we don't do vanity displacement of punctuation. -- Ohconfucius  ¡digame! 09:10, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I understand that for author initials, but what about for (musical) artists like KT Tunstall or more relevantly PJ Harvey. Their stage name is not the same as an initialisation.  WormTT   &middot; &#32;(talk) 09:18, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
 * @WormThatTurned,
 * You seem to be under the illusion that these people read this article or reliable sources before spouting off about "vanity displacement (sic.) of punctuation" and MOS, despite your corrections of their misunderstanding. Kiefer .Wolfowitz 10:39, 16 March 2012 (UTC)