Talk:P. T. Barnum

Untitled
Another thing that needs attention occurs throughout the article: the use of quotation marks around a word or phrase to indicate that it is a novel phrase or that it is perhaps an inappropriate description (for instance, writing "'dens of evil'" instead of "so-called dens of evil"). The great number of these instances alters the general tone of the article, alters the tone and meaning of the individual sentences containing the quotationed word or phrase, and the repetition makes the use of quotation marks for that purpose not as effective. These words and phrases in quotes should either be a true quotation ("what so-and-so described as 'dens of evil'"), or the word or phrase should be changed to something more neutral, or the quotes should just be removed (in cases when they are simply used inappropriately). Hipvicar (talk) 21:59, 4 September 2010 (UTC)hipvicar

In the section "Life" under "Funhouse showman" there are incomplete and unclear sentences. Sentence beginning with "To the static exhibits" in 1st paragraph is unclear. In paragraph 2, there needs to be general grammatical/syntactic and copy editing. There may be more areas after this one that need the same sort of attention. (Apologies if this is somehow incorrect, I'm doing the best I know how.)69.227.85.86 (talk) 20:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)hipvicar

wow
wow! it took *this* long to get a PT Barnum article into wikipedia. Kingturtle 04:44 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)


 * For the record, there's been a PT Barnum article at Phineas Taylor Barnum since December of last year.
 * -- Paul A 05:24 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)

Is there anybody here that could help me really quick?-Brittany S.

copied from Talk:Phineas Taylor Barnum:

If no one objects, I'd like to delete the redirect P. T. Barnum and move the article there. He is widely known by that name; the full name is a mere footnote. Everyking 13:46, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Agreed. &mdash;Morven 23:19, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

Apparently there were originally two articles, Phineas Taylor Barnum and P. T. Barnum, which were merged into the former. This decision was a little misguided, as this man is universally known by his initials, so by the Naming conventions, I've moved it here to the common name.--Pharos 04:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

for the record your dumb —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.166.136.198 (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Museum
As I understand it, Barnum's "American Museum" in New York was not a museum in the modern sense: it was a combination of a theater space, sensationalistic side-show type exhibits, and a bit of a freak show. Does anyone have anything more solid on this? And on its dates of operation? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:44, August 8, 2005 (UTC) According to author Candice Fleming §, Barnum bought the failing John Scudder American Museum, on the corner of Ann and Broadway Streets, based on a promise to pay over time. The museum opened with great fanfare on January 1 1842. The building exterior was transformed the night before the opening by hanging bright colored plaques on the walls and dozens of flags around the roof. He installed a large spotlight, illuminated by burning lime (Limelight) on the roof that could be seen for miles. On the second floor balcony he hired a brass band to play, but not as you might expect. The music was played in an ear splitting disagreeable manner. To the folks who complained about the racket Barnum said, "What else do you expect for nothing?" He then invited them to pay a 25 cent admission price to behold the wonders inside. There were 9 distinct spaces, seven of which he called Saloons: Entrance Hall, Seven Grand Saloons, and The Moral Lecture Hall (to distinguish it from the bawdy reputation of most theaters of the time). The museum was a huge success and a New York attraction until it burned July 13, 1865. Bobcoiltrb (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2018 (UTC)bobcoiltrb

Political posts?
As I understand it, Barnum was mayor of Bridgeport in the 1870s, and a member of the Connecticut House of Representatives. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the article? Kestenbaum 06:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * If you have citation for that, absolutely. - Jmabel | Talk 06:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Oofty Goofty
While he doubtless deserves an article Oofty Goofty doesn't particularly merit mention here. No connection to Barnum that I'm aware of. Not every freak was Barnum's. - Jmabel | Talk 04:26, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * No response in a week, so I'm removing it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:20, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Father's profession
This edit changes his father from "an inn- and store-keeper" to "a farmer" without citation. This page from the Unitarian Universalist Association says he owned a store; I am reverting. If someone has a better citation, please provide it. - Jmabel | Talk 01:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What is the meaning of success?
In the last paragraph of the article we read: ... Barnum was elected to the Connecticut legislature in 1865 as the Republican representative for Fairfield and served two successful terms. Could someone elaborate on the meaning of "successful" in this context, which is not really obvious. Hi There 07:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It was vague and subjective; I removed it. Staib 21:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It was simply the wrong word. Author meant successive, i.e., back-to-back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:6010:5321:CD81:81AE:8CD5:C525:559D (talk) 04:52, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Barnum as a fictional character
There is a graphic novel called Barnum!: In Secret Service to the USA. I have started a couple of entries along similar lines: Nikola Tesla in popular culture and Mark Twain in popular culture and have proposed others: Harry Houdini, Thomas Edison, Robert E. Howard and H. P. Lovecraft. So I was thinking it might be worth considering an entry along similar lines: P. T. Barnum in popular culture. I'll be having a nose around for more examples but feel free to throw others in. (Emperor 19:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC))
 * Feel free. It can be a little trickier to draw the line, though, on someone who was a popular cultural figure in the first place. - Jmabel | Talk 20:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Ten years later
The film The Greatest Showman, which came out in December 2017, is almost entirely fictional.Arglebargle79 (talk) 00:37, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Colorado, Sucker
The article lists a reference The ISBN is invalid; the Google search '"Howdy, Sucker" Barnum ISBN -wikipedia' comes up blank. http://www.coloradohistory.org/publications/Book%20Notices.pdf indicates that the bok exists (and dates from 2001) but gives no ISBN. I'll add the date; could whoever added this (and presumably has the book) please correct the ISBN? - Jmabel | Talk 03:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Uchill, Ida Libert. Howdy, Sucker! What P.T. Barnum Did in Colorado. Denver: Pioneer Peddler Press. ISBN 0-9604468-8-1.

User:Anasazii who added this has no other edits & doesn't accept email. I've left a note, but this doesn't seem likely to do much good. - Jmabel | Talk 03:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the book was published with an invalid ISBN: the library of congress lists the same ISBN but refers to it as "cancelled" (see ISBN). Perhaps we should follow some similar convention? Staib 20:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. - Jmabel | Talk 02:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Examples of hoaxs and more citations needed
As he was so famous for his hoaxes, I think that more mention or a list of them is needed to make the article better. I would also like to see citations for sentences such as his autobiography being 2nd only to the New Testament, as this certainly seems like some self promoting hoax that he would have perpetrated, and could have travelled down history in mythical fashion. A photo of one of the hoaxes, or of his menagerie would give some flavour to the article, as he was such a colourful character.

AmyNelson 14:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that examples of hoaxes won't/shouldn't be included, but I agree on just a little more citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.227.45.58 (talk) 14:38, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Barnum animal abuse
There is nothing about his approval of using elephants and tigers to 'train'. Today Barnum's Circus is known for it's lack of animal care and torture of 'training' elephants (and tigers). These animals are gentle and care for their young. Even though they 'raise' their show elephants, they are torn from their mothers and chained. They suffer being poked with bull hooks into their tender skin making them scream. The means does not justify the ends. These are God's creatures and we will all give an account to God on how we've treated them. You can not take money with you when you die. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.194.197 (talk) 14:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe he died twice!
I noticed that at the top it states death "April 12, 1891" and at the bottom it states "April 7, 1891." Which is it? 96.39.82.183 (talk) 19:51, 9 August 2010 (UTC)Susan
 * Now I'm curious. Abby Kelleyite (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC) says April 7. Not sure where the April 12 date is coming from yet. Abby Kelleyite (talk) 20:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC) NYT obit (subscription only, but dated April 8) agrees with 7th. Abby Kelleyite (talk) 20:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

From most sources that I found, they all say he died on April 7, 1891. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.227.45.58 (talk) 14:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Barnum building at Tufts
Barnum's building at Tufts has the Latin inscription "Barnum Fecit" and the date; he'd wanted it to say "Barnum Museum of Natural History". https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Barnum_Fecit_-_Tufts_University_-_IMG_0922.JPG Reference is https://www.academia.edu/11799581/P._T._Barnum_Jumbo_the_Elephant_and_the_Barnum_Museum_of_Natural_History_at_Tufts_University Is this worth adding to the article? Jaysbro (talk) 19:04, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Young Life
Second paragraph "young husband" should have reference to marriage and wife's name before the identification as a husband. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuzQ! (talk • contribs) 01:21, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

FeeJee Mermaid
He was almost able to buy the birth home of William Shakespeare. What does this mean: ALMOST? Did he bid on it? Did he have the amount of money needed to buy it at current prices? By birth home - do you mean a home in Avon? Why didn't he buy it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuzQ! (talk • contribs) 01:38, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Museums
"By late 1846, Barnum's Museum was drawing 400,000 visitors a year." Which museum - previous sentence says he bought several - or - is this a missing plural (as in his MUSEUMS drew...)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuzQ! (talk • contribs) 01:43, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Jenny Lind
WHERE in America did Lind land (where there were such big crowds)?

This (following) doesn't make sense - "the option of withdrawing from the tour after sixty or one hundred contracts" — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuzQ! (talk • contribs) 02:09, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Personal life and death
Dates for first child's birth: both 1830 and 1833 are listed - which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuzQ! (talk • contribs) 02:44, 28 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Most pages I saw said 1833, and I saw much less sources say 1830. I personally think it's 1833 50.227.45.58 (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Author and debunker section grammar
The phrasing "as long as the public was getting value for money" should probably be "as long as the public was getting value for their money" Thisdaytrivia (talk) 04:59, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Discovered Plagiarism and How to Fix it
I have found that the section titled "Role in politics and minstrel shows" was copied from New World Encyclopedia. Before discovering this I was going to mention some additions such as P.T. Barnum's campaign speech addressing slavery and some tricks Barnum pulled while in the general assembly to provide more political information. With my recent discovery, I am going to find more citations and restructure this section, separating the two topics and providing more information on minstrel shows as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amorn2 (talk • contribs) 17:02, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Barnum in the Connecticut State Legislature
There is quite a bit of confusion in the article regarding Barnum's legislative service. There's a reference to Barnum's serving in "Congress" which I assume is an error and should refer to the Connecticut State Legislature. There is a reference to Barnum's being elected to the Legislature for two terms while in another place it said four terms. The article states that Barnum served in the Legislature from 1866 to 1869, but there's a discussion of his being the legislative sponsor a law passed in 1879.

Before I try to untangle this from scratch (probably after the library here reopens), is there anyone who's been editing the article who has the sources handy and could help clean this up? Thank you, Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

NPOV
This article should be checked to ensure a Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. Barnum is painted in an overwhelmingly positive light, and all mentions of the famously documented abuse of his so-called "freaks" are omitted. There is also no mention of Joice Heth, the African American woman who was sold to and exploited by Barnum. According to the Wikipedia article on Heth, her "toothless mouth was a result from Barnum forcefully extracting her teeth so that she would look older." It is shocking that this article does not include any of the examples that have been cited of him being a manipulative, exploitative, and potentially racist person. AzureWizard (talk) 04:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I wanted to add that I think specifically WP:PROPORTION and WP:BALANCE are not being followed in this article, since it makes no mention of his negative qualities or alleged human rights violations that are well-documented. AzureWizard (talk) 18:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Archive?
There is a lot of sections in this talk page, some new, some old, so i'm looking for consensus to use a archiving bot, would anyone agree to proceed? Imurmate I&#39;ma editor2022 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I don't think we will be getting many responses though. 50.227.45.58 (talk) 14:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Joice Herth
Why is there no mention of Joice Herth and the abuse she suffered at P.T. Barnums' hands? There's a direct link from Joice Herth Wikipedia to this page so why is she not mentioned? Thanks. 176.35.19.219 (talk) 00:31, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

how he was viewed
it doesn’t say how he was viewed as a person during the 19th century. 82.40.31.152 (talk) 22:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I really wanna know…
In the movie “the greatest showman” he was portrayed as a kind guy who liked giving chances to many others who looked different from society. I wanna know, was he really that kind? Tobygee023 (talk) 17:55, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Controversy section
With all the controversy surrounding PT Barnum, his mistreatment of people like Joice Herth and other people he "employed", and his portrayal in the "Greatest Showman" being a bit "public image washing". Why not create a Controversy or Critical backlash section on this article like it was done in Marion Zimmer Bradley or Enid Blyton's page? (Marion Zimmer Bradley and Enid Blyton) 45.133.127.9 (talk) 11:47, 21 November 2023 (UTC)


 * I second this idea. I think a "Controversies" or "Criticisms" would be a good section to add. AzureWizard (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2024 (UTC)