Talk:PFC Cherno More Varna

1913
Отново проява на типичния балкански манталитет в лицето на бургаско-софийските футболни историчари Поне като си променял хронологията на имената, какво се пъчи там 1914-1919. Ти нали бургаски фен на ЦСКА, защо там не напишеш с твоята мила дружка, нова история — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vtd 87.246.52.249 (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Гонг.бг
Четете балкански субекти, четете http://gong.bg/view_article.php?article_id=373053 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.246.52.249 (talk) 05:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Националното радио
http://bnr.bg/sites/radiobulgaria/Sport/Pages/290512_varna.aspx Ето на бургаски гражданино, дори в националното радио написаха за годините от 1909 до 1914г, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.246.52.249 (talk) 05:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC) Vtd

Уточнения
Нека бургаския историчар прочете внимателно. През 1912 година на 3 март се формира местният клон на Националния Юношески туристически съюз наречен Галата. прочете ли добре 1912 г.В тази година се появяват пререкания с централното ръководство на този съюз заради отчитането на членския внос.Същевременно в края на 1912-октомври месец, дружеството става изключително популярно и многобройно. На 3 март 1913 при добре посетено учредително събрание се формира Туристическо-Спортно дружество Галата.Месец и половина по-късно името се променя на Река Тича, тоест името е променено през месец май. ТСД Река Тича е ПЪРВИЯТ ОФИЦИАЛЕН СПОРТЕН И ФУТБОЛЕН КЛУБ В БЪЛГАРИЯ.С учредителен протокол, печат и малко по-късно става първия клуб с приет устав.Съдебната регистрация на клуба, в графата учредяване според учредителния протокол е написано 3.03.1913. Едно леко отклонение в съдебната регистрация за така наречения най-стар съществуващ клуб пише...1925 година. От тук нататък би било проява на откровено лицемерие писането на 1945 година като начало на клуба.87.246.52.249 (talk) 06:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)Велико Димитров87.246.52.249 (talk) 06:31, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Fabricating history
The history of the club founded in 1913 is described in detail. The merger in 1945 is not the founding date and never has been. The centenary celebrations took place in 2013 in attendance of the mayor of Varna and other celebrities. And here we have the old badge of the club with the founding year 1913, until it was replaced with the 4 stars representing the 4 titles in 1925,1926,1934,1938 Okalinov (talk) 19:53, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * SC Ticha was founded in 1913 and SC Vladislav Varna was founded in 1916. These city rivals merged in 1945 as Ticha-Vladislav so that's how Cherno More was established. Simple as that. The celebrations concerned Varna long football history, not PFC Cherno More in particular. What you are doing is trying to fabricate and invent a completely new club history not dealing with true events from that time. These four titles have nothing to do with Cherno More. One belongs to SC Ticha and the other three to Vladislav. So what are you trying to prove exactly?--Rebelheartous (talk) 11:39, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

You should try to read the article first. Ticha and Vladislav have everything to do with Cherno More. A short resume of the 2 clubs before the merger and a more elaborate article on SC Vladislav Varna won't hurt the eyes of any Wikipedia reader. On a contrary, it gives valuable information on the club's history before and after 1945. It is in accordance with the books given in the references underneath. If you want to change the history of the club you should first write a reference book so we can read it. Regards Okalinov (talk) 13:22, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Apparently the rebel-hearted logic only applies to Cherno more Varna, as the majority of the other Bulgarian clubs claim to be established at some point before WWII, but they were also subjected to mergers with other clubs after 9/9/1944. Examples continue as late as 1969 (Levski Sofia and Spartak Sofia; Slavia Sofia and Lokomotiv Sofia), 2001 (Lokomotiv Plovdiv and Velbazhd Kyustendil), 2010 (Botev Plovdiv and Metalik Sopot) and many others. Please refrain from further 'editing' the page as the only thing you achieve is delete other contributors' work. Feel free to write a separate article about the fabricated history of Bulgarian football clubs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by J. Hobart (talk • contribs) 08:14, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Also, Rebelheartous' claim that the 2013 celebrations concerned Varna long football history, not PFC Cherno More in particular. paints hims as rather clueless, which can be easily confirmed with a google search.

http://www.novsport.com/news502871_1.html http://www.varna.utre.bg/gallery/2013/03/02/681-fenove_na_cherno_more_napraviha_shestvie_na_100_godishnia_yubiley/9701 http://www.varna.utre.bg/gallery/2013/03/02/675-unikalna_horeografia_na_ticha/9556 http://dariknews.bg/view_article.php?article_id=1145010 http://www.blitz.bg/sport/bg-futbol/100-godini-cherno-more-snimki_165823.html J. Hobart (talk) 08:38, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

User:Rebelheartous - Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to blank out or remove portions of page content, templates, or other materials from Wikipedia, you may be blocked from editing. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by J. Hobart (talk • contribs) 10:12, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

'''This is a translation of the article on the Bulgarian page. Many references are submitted, most of them from the Year books of the Bulgarian Football Union which was the highest authority issuing club information. If anyone has any questions I will be glad to answer them.''' Okalinov (talk) 16:25, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

PFC Cherno More Varna (ПФК Черно Море Варна), or simply Cherno More (ФК Черно Море) is a Bulgarian professional football club from the city of Varna, currently playing in Bulgaria's top football league, the A Group. Founded in 1913 as SK Ticha, the club has spent the majority of its existence in the top tier of Bulgarian football.

Cherno More means Black Sea in Bulgarian, and the club is nicknamed the Sailors. Cherno More's home ground is the Ticha Stadium, which has a seating capacity of 8,250 spectators. To date, the club has won the championship four times and the Bulgarian Cup once.

Early years
Оn 3 March 1913, Galata Sports Association was created in the 1st High School for boys in Varna. Later in 1913 Karel Škorpil, one of the founding members and at that time a school teacher, suggested a name change to Reka Ticha, using the old name of the Kamchia river. On 24 May 1914 Sportist Sports Club (which was founded by Stefan Tonchev and a group of boys in 1909) joined Reka Ticha. Many Cherno More supporters today consider the officially acknowledged founding year (1913) to be historically incorrect, believing that SK Sportist (1909) is the original founding member of Cherno More. Football was the main sport among many different sporting activities practised by Reka Ticha. The first International friendly on record in Bulgarian football history was played in 1915 between Reka Ticha and the 21st Pomeranian Regiment of Prussia. It ended in a 4-4 draw. In 1919 Ticha played different matches against teams from Sofia. They were a complete success. 3-0 and 1-0 wins against Slavia in Varna and Sofia respectively and a 4-1 win against Levski in Varna. The Levski vs.Ticha return match in Sofia did not take place. The growth of Bulgarian football required knowledge of the rules, so in 1919, Ticha published the first Bulgarian football rulebook : "Football - Rules and Admonitions", written by Stefan Tonchev. On 21 January 1919, Reka Ticha changed its name to Sports Club Ticha (SK Ticha), and the kit colours were chosen to be red and white. The same year, the famous Bulgarian musician Nikola Nitsov wrote the official anthem of the club.

In 1921 Sports Club Granit left the collective membership with SK Ticha due to financial disputes, becoming SC Vladislav after Polish king Władysław of Varna. Their emblem was the four-leaf clover and the kit colours were green and white which are still today the official colours of successor Cherno More. SC Vladislav was to become the first team to win the Tsar's Cup in 1925 rendering them the first champions of the Kingdom of Bulgaria. The captain, Egon Terzetta is revered by the Cherno More fans as the scorer in the final match, winning the cup for the green-white team. Later, in 1945 they will rejoin SK Ticha in a merger and the club will be known as Ticha-Vladislav 45.

In 1925 SK Ticha won the Cup of Bucharest ,after two straight wins against Tricolor (to become later Unirea Tricolor) and Sportul Sudenesc both from Bucharest. This turned to be the first international football trophy won by a Bulgarian football club, making SK Ticha the most popular club in Varna at the time.

In 1935 and 1936 SK Ticha finished as runners-up in the knockout National competition. In 1938 the club became Bulgarian champions winning the first edition of the United National Football league. The members of the Championship winning team were: Ivan Sarajdarov, Onik Haripyan, Garabed Garabedov, Georgi Gochev, Atanas Kovachev, Georgi Radev, Willy Petkov, Panayot Rozov, Milyu Parushev, Iliya Donchev and Dobry Bajtchev

In total, 18 SK Ticha and SC Vladislav players were selected for the national team. Boyan Byanov of SK Ticha captained the National team in its first ever match against Austria in Vienna, played on 21 May 1924. The same year he also participated in the Olympic National team for the Paris games.

Communist era (1944-89)
With the establishment of Communist rule in Bulgaria after WWII, significant changes took place affecting all leading clubs without exception. It was a time for mergers, splits, changing of names and in some cases closure of clubs. All this, to suit the new vision of the new communist ruled government. On 18 February 1945, SC Ticha and SC Vladislav merged with all their available assets and the new name of the club was Ticha-Vladislav. An important issue about the merger of these two teams, and the claims by Cherno More supporters who descend from them, is that it was not as a result of bankruptcy, insolvency, bad debts or any other foul play, but the result of a decision by a political party which had absolute and unchecked power, which simply decided that there were just too many clubs in the city of Varna and that their number should be reduced.

In 1947, SC Primoretz also joined the new club, now to be known as TVP 45. SC Primoretz practised only basketball and tennis and therefore did not have a football team. Chairman of the club was the long time SC Vladislav sportsman Aleksi Aleksiev.

In 1948–49, under the name Botev, the club took part in the highest level of the first post-war league to be known as Bulgarian A Football Group or "A" RFG. Botev Varna finished 6th in a group of 10 teams with centre forward Nedko Nedev ending up as top scorer of the competition with 12 goals. Some more reorganisation, in accordance with the Soviet principles, took place in the next season. The town of Varna was renamed Stalin in honour of the Soviet dictator and stayed that way until 1956. A departmental system was applied, placing most clubs under the umbrella of two major departments, The Ministry of Defence and The Ministry of Interior. Botev Stalin went under military command and was ordered to play in the Third division (group "V") to make place for the newly formed Central Army Club (CDNV, later CSKA) from Sofia which started in "A" RFG straight after being founded. Although relegated by decree, the team of Botev Stalin retained most of its players and under the leadership of trainer Ivan Mokanov was promoted back to "A" RFG in 2 successive seasons, under the name VMS (which stands for Bulgarian Navy).

In 1953, VMS Stalin finished 3rd in the competition after the two leading Sofia clubs. The saddest season in the club's history is 1955. It started with 5 consecutive wins, all against Sofia teams. The hopes of title-dreaming supporters were dashed with only 1 point in the following 10 games. The team was relegated at the end of the season to be promoted back the next year under its previous name, Botev Varna.

In 1959, a small team from "B" RFG by the name of Cherno More, which resulted from the merger of two other Varna teams (Lokomotiv and Korabostroitel) one year earlier, joined Botev and from this year until now, the club will go by the name Cherno More. The club stayed in "A" RFG without interruption until 1976 but did not have any major achievements. Under the control of the Ministry of Defence over the years, a number of talented players left de club for the Central Army Club (CSKA) without Cherno More receiving adequate compensation. One of them, Bozhil Kolev, starred in the defence of the National team in the World Cup finals in BRD'74.

Cherno More had its moments of glory in a friendly against Ajax which ended in a 3-1 win on 8 June 1966, with goals from Zdravko Mitev (2) and Stefan Bogomilov. The 19 year old Johan Cruyff scored for Ajax. In August 1966 the team from Varna visited England and played three matches. The most memorable was the 1-0 win against Nottingham Forest on City Ground. Nottingham fielded a strong side with Peter Grummitt, Bob McKinlay, Alan Hinton, Henry Newton, Joe Baker, Terry Hennessey, Jeff Whitefoot in the starting 11. The match was decided with a long range shot from defender Dimitar Bosnov in the first half. Nottingham Forest was to end the 1966-67 season as runners-up in the Football League First Division. The other two matches ended in a 1-1 draw against Coventry City after Stefan Yanev had opened the score, and a 1-2 defeat to Sheffield Wednesday F.C.. After 16 years in the top flight, Cherno More was relegated in 1976 and won promotion the following season. A new generation of players was emerging. Defenders Todor Marev and Ivan Ivanov, midfielders Todor Atanasov and Ivan Andreev, forwards Rafi Rafiev and Nikola Spasov left many good memories in the late 70s and the 80s. In the 1981-82 season, the team finished 4th and therefore qualified for the Intertoto Cup. Cherno More won twice 2-0 at home against Standard Liège and the Danes from Hvidovre IF and drew 1-1 against Bayer 04 Leverkusen. Away, they drew 1-1 in Denmark and lost 1-3 and 0-3 in Liège and Leverkusen respectively. Later in the 80s, Cherno More was relegated twice and played 3 seasons in "B" RFG. The team reached the final of The Soviet Army Cup and were runners-up twice in 1985 and 1988.

The 90s struggle
The fall of socialism in Bulgaria in 1989 and the establishment of democracy brought new hardships for Bulgarian football clubs. The transition from state backed organisations to privately owned entities saw many traditional football clubs disappear entirely, while others were forced to declare bankruptcy, only to return later by obtaining licences from smaller clubs. Cherno More avoided any administrative changes and kept its name and history, but spent 8 out of 9 seasons of the decade in the league’s second tier. Relegated in 1990 and facing immense financial difficulties, at one time during the 1998-99 season, the club came close to relegation to the 3rd division of Bulgarian football. Despite being in the "B"RFG, Cherno More sold their best player and own product Ilian Iliev to Levski Sofia for a then Bulgarian record of 2 million leva (£60 000) in 1991. Things started to get better in 1998 with new chairman Krasen Kralev who turned the club into a joint-stock company.

New Millennium
The new millennium saw the club establishing itself in the country's top flight. The Sailors spent the majority of the 90s in Bulgaria's second tier before securing promotion at the end of the 1999-2000 season, ending a six consecutive season spell in the B Group. Cherno More survived minor relegation scares in their first two seasons back in the A Group and then went on to become a regular feature in the league's top half. In 2002, Kralev convinced businessman Ilia Pavlov to buy the club. Pavlov had ideas about developing the club and turning it into one of the leaders in Bulgarian football. He appointed the young and ambitious coach Velislav Vutzov and signed many experienced players such as National team goalkeeper Zdravko Zdravkov, defenders Adalbert Zafirov and Georgi Gintchev. Some foreign players, Lúcio Wagner, Darko Spalević and Maltese international Daniel Bogdanović also made their way to Varna. The results were quick to follow. Victories against champions CSKA in Sofia and Litex in Lovech saw the team soaring up in the table. The success story came to an abrupt end with the murder of Ilia Pavlov on 7 March 2003. Months of uncertainties followed and at some point, the very existence of the club was at stake until the Finance and Business group TIM took control in 2004.

In the 2007-08 season, the Sailors finished 5th in A Group and qualified for the last season of the UEFA Cup due to licence problems of CSKA Sofia. Led by captain Alex they had a very successful run - they defeated UE Sant Julia of Andora in the first qualifying round (9-0 on aggregate) and Maccabi Netanya from Israel in the second qualifying round (3-1 on aggregate). Cherno More than challenged German side VfB Stuttgart in the 1st round and were eliminated after a 1-2 loss at home and a surprising 2-2 draw in Stuttgart after having a 2-0 lead up until the 85th minute of the game. During the same season the team was successful finishing 3rd in A Group, and qualified for the newly created Europa League.

In the 2009-10 season Cherno More started in the UEFA Europa League by defeating Iskra-Stal from Moldavia in the second qualifying round (4-0 on aggregate) and were drawn to play against Dutch powerhouse PSV Eindhoven in the third qualifying round. The team from Varna was eliminated after a 0-1 loss at Eindhoven and another 0-1 loss at the Lazur Stadium in Burgas.

After being 3rd in 2008-09, the club failed to impress in A Group but saw a successful run in the Bulgarian Cup during the 2014-15 season. The Sailors defeated Sozopol, Slavia Sofia, Lokomotiv Gorna Oryahovitsa, and Lokomotiv Plovdiv on the road to the final against Levski Sofia at the Lazur Stadium in Burgas. Despite being down to ten men since the 39th minute and trailing 0-1, the team managed to equalize in added time through Bacari's volley and went on to win the Cup after Mathias Coureur's stunning strike in the 118th minute, winning the club's first post-World War II trophy.

Domestic
Bulgarian State Football Championship:
 * Winners (4) : 1925,1926,1934 (as SC Vladislav Varna) and 1938 (as Ticha Varna)
 * Runners-up (6): 1928,1930,1935,1936 (as Ticha Varna) and 1938,1939 (as SC Vladislav Varna)
 * Third-place (1): 1939 (as Ticha Varna)

Bulgarian A Group:
 * Third place (2): 1953, 2008–09

Bulgarian Cup:
 * Winners (1): 2015
 * Runners-up (2): 2006, 2008

Bulgarian Supercup:
 * Winners (1): 2015

'''Cup of the Soviet Army
 * Runners-up (2): 1985, 1988

International
Bucharest Cup:
 * Winners (1): 1925 (as Ticha Varna)

League positions
*Points deducted from all teams after completing the first phase of campaign.

Championship/Relegation groups are constituted after all teams have played each other home and away.

Stadium


Ticha Stadium is a multi-use stadium in Varna, Bulgaria. It is currently used for football matches and is the home ground of Cherno More. It is situated in the north-eastern part of Varna. Built in 1968, the stadium currently has a capacity of 8,250 seating places, spread in two opposite stands. The main south stand has a roof cover and holds 4,250 spectators, while the opposite north stand has a seating capacity of 4,000 spectators. The north stand is commonly used by the Cherno More ultras and the away fans. The current stadium was built with the help of hundreds of volunteers and fans of the club on the place of the old Reka Ticha playground.

It was officially announced, that the club will move to a new stadium, which will replace the unused Yuri Gagarin Stadium and the current Ticha. The stadium will have a capacity of 30,000 spectators. The stadium, as part of Sport Complex Varna, will have an underground parking area, convertible roof covers, office lounges, two-tier stands and four 50 meter towers, which will block the pressure of the terrain and bring the stadium in a shape of a ship. The convertible roof covers will be made of transparent panels, which will allow the light of the floodlights to stream inside the pitch on a night match. The venue will be awarded with an Elite Stadium rating by UEFA.

Statistics and records
Todor Marev holds A Group's and Cherno More's overall appearances record — 422 matches for 19 seasons (from 1971 to 1990).

Cherno More's all-time leading scorer is Stefan Bogomilov, who scored 161 goals for the club (from 1962 to 1977). The club's second highest scorer is Nikola Dimitrov, who scored 63 goals. Bogomilov also holds the club record of 4 hat tricks. Center forward Miroslav Manolov holds the club's and A Group's record for the fastest goal - 6 seconds after the referee's first signal, against PFC Montana on 22 March 2012.

Cherno More's biggest victories in A Group are the 8-0 wins against Cherveno Zname Pavlikeni in 1955 and Maritsa Plovdiv in 1968. Cherno More's largest defeat, 1–8, was against Lokomotiv Plovdiv in 2004. Also, the club's win against UE Sant Julia, 5-0, in 2008, was the largest European win in the club's history.

Current squad


For recent transfers, see Transfers summer 2015 and Transfers winter 2015–16.

Foreign players
Up to three non-EU nationals can be registered and given a squad number for the first team in the A PFG. Those non-EU nationals with European ancestry can claim citizenship from the nation their ancestors came from. If a player does not have European ancestry he can claim Bulgarian citizenship after playing in Bulgaria for 5 years.

EU Nationals
 * 🇲🇶 🇫🇷 Mathias Coureur
 * Marc Klok
 * Pedro Eugénio

EU Nationals (Dual citizenship)
 * 🇨🇻 Sténio
 * 🇪🇸 Bacari

Non-EU Nationals
 * 🇲🇱 Mamoutou Coulibaly
 * Aleksandar Čanović
 * Ivan Marković

UEFA ranking
UEFA Club Coefficients

Last updated: 2016-3-16

Notable players

 * For all players with a Wikipedia article see Category:PFC Cherno More Varna players.

Dispute for the club's history
It is clear that there is long standing dispute regarding the history/foundation date of the club, which unfortunately has resulted in several edit wars (the last one from 16 July 2017 and still ongoing as of 9 August). The subject has been highly debated at the bg wiki talk page (in Bulgarian) since 2013. On 17 July 2017, I asked for advice at WP:FOOTY but the discussion there was archived without comments by other users or administrators. Since each Wikipedia is a separate entity and has its own procedures, the discussions that were held and decisions made are for bg wiki alone. I suggest that all parties of the dispute run the discussion again in English, with clean state of mind and the ultimate goal of building consensus. I will try to present the views of the arguing parties, herein called for brevity "1913 camp" and "1945 camp" (no disrespect intended). Please make the necessary amendments if these positions are inaccurate or not clear enough. I hope that more editors will participate in the discussion. Yavorescu (talk) 01:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The 1913 camp
Supported by:

Claim: Cherno More is successor of SC Ticha (1913) and SC Vladislav Varna (1916), two independent clubs which were forcibly merged by the communist regime in 1945, forming TV-45, which was later renamed as Cherno More. Thus, Cherno More's foundation year is 1913, and the "honours" section of the article should include all of the honours won by its predecessors (properly marked as such).

Sources:
 * Cherno More' official website
 * Official editions of the Bulgarian Football Federation (predecessor of the Bulgarian Football Union) where Cherno More is presented as successor of both Ticha and Vladislav and having 4 titles (scanned copies of printed publications available at retro-football.bg)
 * Encyclopedia of Football, Vol.II, by Anatoli Petrov and Petko Pavlov, Elpis Publishing, 1994, ISBN 954-557-0003-X, p.266
 * Bulgarian Football 2004, yearbook published by Bulgarian Football Ltd, 2004,, p.136–7 (Oddly enough, this is the same publisher as the owner of the 1945 camp's main source, bgclubs.eu – but the statements here and on the website are contradicting)

Additional evidence supporting the claim:
 * BFU's list of champions, which includes Cherno More with 4 titles and explanatory text that Cherno More is successor of Ticha and Vladislav
 * Honorary Diploma, issued by BFU to Ivan Mokanov on 16 September 2013 in connection with the 100th anniversary of PFC Cherno More:
 * An old badge of the club, with 1913 embedded
 * News from various media covering the celebrations of the 100th anniversary in 2013
 * An entire page "50 years ASC Cherno More" in Varna's main newspaper Narodno Delo, issue 272 (5986) from 14 November 1963, including news that in connection with the anniversary the club is awarded with "People's Order of Labor (silver)" by the Presidium of the Parliament of Bulgaria. Another news states that on the occasion of the anniversary various footballers/coaches are given individual awards by the Bureau of the Central Council of the Bulgarian Union of Gymnastics and Sport (the organization governing all sports in the country at that time).

The 1945 camp


Claim: Cherno More was established in 1945 when Ticha and Vladislav merged and cannot claim the history and honours of these clubs. Cherno More's history is from 1945 onwards.

Sources:
 * Cherno More's article at bgclubs.eu
 * Cherno More's article at Soccerway

Statement by Yavorescu
The case is unique because the merger in 1945 was imposed by a political party having ultimate power at that time; it was not the result of voluntary agreement between the clubs, insolvency, bankruptcy, etc. Nevertheless, it is not uncommon for a club to claim its foundation date to be the one of its predecessors, for example Hamburger SV, SC Freiburg and TSG 1899 Hoffenheim. Certainly, there are counterexamples as well, when a new club is formed after the merger. As far as I know, there is no law or regulation governing such transformations and each country has its own specific practices; furthermore, it seems reasonable to say that each club has its own right to decide whether to become successor of its predecessor(s). This case can be narrowed down to reliability of sources. In my opinion the sources of the 1913 camp have more weight, because they are official publications by an official, independent institution, governing Bulgarian football at that time. They were written by many different authors and published for a period of several decades. Looking at other Wikipedia articles, a citation from the club's official website or an article written by the club's historian is sufficient for determining the foundation date. Here we have confirmation from an official organization.

Rebuttals

 * CSKA Sofia was founded in 1948 by the merger of two clubs, yet they do not claim the history of these clubs. Cherno More should be treated in the same manner.
 * It does not follow. From its foundation in 1948 until the privatization in the 1990's CSKA was the club of the People's Army, and there was no People's Army before the People's Republic of Bulgaria. Maybe the founders of CSKA wanted to cut all connections to pre-1945 Bulgaria, particularly those leading to the Bulgarian Army during the Kingdom of Bulgaria. In any case, the details of the mergers of CSKA and Cherno More are rather different and analogy is not applicable.


 * 1913 camp's main sources are WP:SELFPUB.
 * Assuming for the sake of the argument that retro-football.bg is Okalinov's site, that would be a correct statement if the citations were text written by the site's authors/administrators. However, the sources provided are scanned printed publications and Okalinov was not an editor (probably, he wasn't born when some of these editions were published). They are available in public libraries/archives and may not be available online at all.  As far as Wikipedia is concerned, sources must be cited correctly; there is no requirement that the sources should be online.


 * BFF publications are not recognized by the BFU because BFU is a separate organization.
 * I beg to differ. According to the BFU website (translation mine): "BFU is successor of the Bulgarian Football Federation (BFF) (1962-1985)."  The term "successor" (Bulgarian: "правоприемник") means exactly this; the successor accepts all assets and liabilities of its predecessor and there is complete connection between the two entities. The very same thing happened between Ticha/Vladislav and Cherno More.  Furthermore, BFU lists Cherno More as successor of both Ticha and Vladislav in their list of champions, which only confirms the facts as previously published in the BFF editions.


 * BFU is not authoritative for clubs' history.
 * That is probably so. But a website with short texts for various Bulgarian clubs (bgclubs.eu) is not authoritative either. It seems to me that a local football federation (member association of UEFA) is the closest possible authority when it comes to clubs' history. When Red Bull purchased and rebranded FC Salzburg in 2005, the new club management claimed that it was a completely new club with no history.  However, they were forced by the Austrian Football Association to withdraw that claim and the club's history was subsequently restored. The local football association determines whether a given club is successor of another club, because usually that is done by transferring the membership to the new club/entity.


 * 1913 camp's claim is based on original research.
 * The citations from the sources directly relate to Cherno More and/or its predecessors, the fact that Cherno More is successor of both these clubs and therefore the content of the article cannot be considered original research. It is true that none of the BFF editions is especially made for Cherno More, but the reader is pointed to the page where the relevant information can be found. Some of the arguments (like the celebrations for the 100th anniversary or Ivan Mokanov's honorary diploma) can be considered original research with a stretch of imagination, if they were the only sources. However, the article's content is not based on them.


 * Reliability of bgclubs.eu
 * It is true that this website is widely used as source in Wikipedia, that is a fact. However, it is full of inaccuracies and inconsistencies  and cannot be considered as reliable or authoritative source of information. (If necessary, I will present at least 5 examples of inaccurate information.) There are no details how the information on clubs' history is gathered and there is no evidence for any of the historical facts presented.  I further question the reliability of this source because the same company has published a printed yearbook in 2004, presenting Cherno More as successor of Ticha and Vladislav with four league titles won.


 * Reliability of Soccerway
 * Soccerway is considered as reliable source for Wikipedia, WP:FOOTY in particular. It is worth mentioning that for Bulgarian football statistics Soccerway's primary source is the Bulgarian football statistics website bulgarian-football.com, and for other details (club's badge, stadium, contacts, history) the primary source is bgclubs.eu.  bulgarian-football.com and bgclubs.eu are under the same umbrella, same ownership and mostly the same editor team, so it is not surprising that both bgclubs.eu and soccerway.com claim that Cherno More is founded in 1945.  Finally, Soccerway is considered as reliable for football statistics, but as far as I know it has never been regarded as authoritative for clubs' history and foundation dates in particular.  It is also inconsistent: claims that Cherno More is founded in 1945, but the trophies include one title from 1937/38, albeit in grey colour.


 * It is paradoxical that Cherno More were champions and runners-up simultaneously.
 * There is no paradox. At that time, Cherno More's predecessors were independent clubs and participated in the same championship.  In fact this is quite common for clubs that were independent and subsequently merged later. For example, in 1938–39 Gauliga Ostmark, SK Admira Wien were champions and SC Wacker were runners-up. The article of the present club FC Admira Wacker Mödling correctly lists all honours, properly marked as won by the respective predecessor clubs. Yavorescu (talk) 06:06, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Yavorescu (talk) 01:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Statement by Okalinov
In attempt to break up with the "bourgeoisie past", all clubs were subjected to mergers by the new government in 1945. Only after the end of the Stalinist era and with the creation of the Bulgarian Union of Gymnastics and Sport (bulg. БСФС) bridges were rebuild and all clubs could claim their descendancy from the pre-War sports establishments. Mergers on Soviet inspired principles were made up until 1969 with not a single one of them resulting in a new foundation date. This includes all Bulgarian teams without exception. There is no reason why exception should be made only in this particlar case. Okalinov (talk) 07:09, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

I've asked several times that you please discuss this matter. I'm going to go ahead and make the change I've described above. If you revert without responding here, then I'm going to have to file a complaint against you at ANI for disruptive editing by reverting without discussing.— Yavorescu (talk) 11:42, 27 October 2017 (UTC).
 * Update: A discussion is taking place at WP:ANI. Slasher405 (talk) 19:17, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Comment
Why is the article still at 1945? As I see everyone except one editor support 1913, there are also more sources. Linhart (talk) 12:22, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Linhart, what do you suggest? If I revert it, that would be a start of an edit war (or rather, a continuation of the old one).  I was hoping for directions from an administrator, but my request at WP:ANI remained unanswered. Yavorescu (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Linhart, The problem is that we have a very determined user who wants single handedly to change the history of the club. He is evading the discussion because he knows he can't win but keeps on revering the page as he likes, using all possible loopholes in the procedures. So far, it seems difficult to get the attention of an administrator but hopefully it will happen sooner or later. Okalinov (talk) 19:49, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't do anything really, I didn't know the situation is like this. If there will be some discussion or vote or something, i will support the 1913 camp. Linhart (talk) 21:47, 7 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi guys, I was mentioned in a DRN about this article. I went through the discussion here as well as (unfortunately) the one in Bulgarian and fail to see a constructive approach by one side in particular. It looks as though only on side is acting constructively and coming up with actual proposals, sources, etc. As this is the case, I really do not see any weight to the other side's stance. Not discussing or assuming the inflammatory approach used over at BG wiki is not a way to build an encycploaedia and it should not be allowed to obstruct said building. As was also mentioned in the DRN I see no reason why the page should not be reverted to the stance that is heavily backed up by sources and that a single user opposes without even entering in discussion. As there is no way to force someone to participate in a discussion, we might just have to restore the version agreed upon by all but one user and hopefully get this one user into a discussion. I wish I could come up with something more constructive, but it seems as though you are running out of options. Unfortunately, I really do not have the time to get involved in an RFC. I have also additional reasons not to get involved with such users (I received a lot of very real off-wiki threats the last time I did). -- L a v e o l  T 11:44, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Laveol, thank you for taking the time to get familiar with our case. That's a lot of reading (some of it unpleasant), so I appreciate that.  I understand your reasons why you want to remain uninvolved and I certainly won't insist.  The only reason why I prefer a neutral and experienced editor to file the RFC is because I believe it would be better worded and as unbiased as possible.  Do you think RFC would help and it's worth filing one?  Reverting seems like an aggressive "last resort" option that could be avoided if the RFC is successful. Yavorescu (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
 * RFC is always a good option, I just have the (bad) feeling it might not be enough to avoid an edit war. We already have a case of edit warring against what seems a vast consensus among editors.-- L a v e o l  T 10:12, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Official statement of the club
On 5 January 2018, following the correspondence between the football club and bulgarian-football.com/bgclubs.eu, the club's article at bglubs.eu (the 1945 camp's only source) was updated to mention the club's official position and a remark was added below. The remark states that PFC Cherno More expressed its disagreement with www.bgclubs.eu about the reference regarding the history of the club. In response, the chief editor of bgclubs.eu clarified that their site respects the right of every club to have its own position on its history and honours and does not aim to impose bgclubs.eu's interpretation on the historical facts as the only possible and logical one. The site though reserves its rights to a personal and non-engaging interpretation of the events. The full correspondence has been published here (in Bulgarian).
 * It is my opinion that the discussion ends here. Okalinov (talk) 15:48, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
 * LOL… Hi, Doc! Nothing ends here! Neither here, nor anywhere! Take a breathe, deeply,  be more calm, and STOP gibe with us. As you said, the club's article at bgclubs.eu,  was updated to mention the club's official position and a remark was added below.  Anyway, the position of the oldest, and the most authoritative Bulgarian football site is, that the year of fondation  of Cherno more is 1945, and the best domestic honours are : Bulgarian Cup(2015), and third place(twice) -1953 and 2009. I would like to introduce the editors, how did you call the Chief editor of bgclubs.eu, just 3 months ago. You called  him Mr “BOIL”! -- "Сега, кажете ми вие, с какво сайта бг.клъбс е благонадежден източник? От къде черпи информацията си и източниците си. Свободните съчинения на някой си Йордан Цирейов(in English"boil") в този сайт не могат да се нарекат източник изобщо." Okalinov (беседа) 08:32, 12 октомври 2017 (UTC)" . You are 55! A m.d.!  Shame on you!Tormon245t (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Not a single source supports your claims. See the remark above Okalinov (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Whopper…The main source, bgclubs.eu, indicates, that year of foundation of Cherno more is 1945 and the best domestic honours are : Bulgarian Cup(2015), and third place(twice) -1953 and 2009. You don’t say the truth, Mr Kalinov. Tormon245t (talk) 17:26, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Tormon, I seriously suggest you stopped with the attacks, especially ones based on personal information. The next time I see you posting something like this you're going straight to the administrator noticeboard.-- L a v e o l  T 21:35, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I don’t understand  what kind of “attack” is there, Laveol.  All, what I wrote, is the truth. I’m not kidding, and I’m not lier! And, also, the  information is not personal, but a public one. You, personaly, may to check this. I intend to inform You, that all the Okalinov’s editions are deleted from main Bulgarian article. The same article, for  his  sake, is temporary locked and is under procedure…Tormon245t (talk) 16:34, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The user has not disclosed any personal information on this wiki. You should hence respect his privacy. -- L a v e o l  T 22:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I’m quite respect this privacy, and I share the same! But, let me check Your sense of humour. What about this? Sincerely, I am very RESPECT of YOU,Laveol, that  You was hereby awarded the Saint Cyril and Methodius Order of Merit, for Your countless contributions and efforts to maintain the good tone on Bulgaria&Macedonia-related topics. One of my best friends was also hereby awarded the same Order of Merit,  in 2010, Valdi Totev.So, I check the list of awarded persons for 2008, and I established, that the only person, wich was awarded in april is Acad. Evgeniy Golovinski. Is this correct?Tormon245t (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 1. You are aware that a wiki barnstar is nothing like an actual national award?
 * 2. This has nothing to do with you harassing other users. -- L a v e o l  T 21:03, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 1. Oh, I wasn't aware of the term "Barnstar". Besides that, I am totaly respectfull towards Your positions and awards, Laveol.
 * 2. I don't think that I have insulted anyone. If You think, that I have done so, please, accept my deep and sincere appologies.Tormon245t (talk) 15:23, 19 January 2018 (UTC)