Talk:PSG.LGD

Page move
Per the recent edit warring by, there should be a solution to the recent page move issue from PSG.LGD to LGD Gaming, where I propose two options.


 * 1) Consider the page to be their Dota 2 squad only, as the majority of their influence in the eSports industry has been in Dota 2, and the sources that report on them primarily focus on that. This option would get rid of all the League of Legends info (which is barely sourced, written, full of non-notable info, and three years out of date), and keep the page at PSG.LGD.
 * 2) Consider the page to be their overall organization, which does seem to have been kept at LGD Gaming outside of their Dota 2 team, which I wasn't aware of at the time I requested the page to be moved. This is pretty much how the article is currently structured, but I think if we go this route, then the article needs a major cleanup, per the LoL issues listed above. (the Dota 2 section has it as well) This option would move the page back to LGD Gaming, with PSG.LGD being a redirect to their Dota 2 section.

I'm fine with either, as long as the article is improved over its current state. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:17, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Logo is outdated. Please update. https://i.imgur.com/v5eeBSU.png - fair use. You're on your own for the information. I tried to help, you negated all my work and revisions. I'm in daily talks with LGD officials, so I know what I'm talking about.

If I may give one last advice, just keep the PSG.LGD page for the dota2 team only, they've qualified for The International 2018, there should be plenty of stuff to post, and keep the current one, by reverting it back to LGD Gaming. I may try to consider helping in the future, but not until the above mentioned issues are fixed. Dissideent93 made this mess, he should be the one to clean it. LiquidNix (talk) 16:47, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks you for removing your personal attack, User:LiquidNix. —SerialNumber54129  paranoia / cheap sh*t room 17:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I simply moved the page, the rest of the article (in its bad state) was done by other editors. And you being in "daily talks with LGD officials" is a potential WP:COI, is it not? And having PSG.LGD as a separate article is not ideal, because then you'd have a basically unsourced LGD Gaming article that's outdated by three years, and this fixes nothing. So either we support option 1 or option 2 (or another valid option 3, although I can't think of any). But if you're not here to help, then why even bother making such a fuss? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

The PSG.LGD Partnership is solely for Dota 2 (as proven by the source article). In order for the PSG.LGD page to be accurate it needs to reflect that the PSG.LGD collaboration is in DOTA 2 only (as sourced). PSG.LGD is the name of their Dota 2 team/ It is not a merged company or any other sort of partnership. With that being said, any reference to League of Legends team in regards that mentions PSG.LGD needs to be removed because there is no PSG.LGD LOL team, nor any collaboration in LOL.

Hence, LGD Gaming should have their own page accurately reflecting this separation.

LGDGamingFan (talk) 16:29, 7 September 2018 (UTC)LGDGF
 * They are not different organizations, their Dota 2 team was just sponsored under the PSG brand. This was already established above. But I disagree that having the two as separate articles is needed, as their Dota 2 is the one that actually gets any real coverage in the media. However, if you can provide real sources for their LoL/any other game divisions, it could be considered. So in short, you are basically supporting the first option, right? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 16:44, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

PSG and LGD are two entirely separate organizations with two different business licenses in different countries. There is no reasonable person that can say they are the same. They are not.

A partnership is not a merger, not an acquisition. They, as two separate entities, work together in supporting a Dota 2 team. That is it. Nothing more. They do not work together in anything else.

"However, this is not a complete transfer of the roster, as the team will remain under the LGD management and little outside of the name and branding will be different."

If you go to the PSG web site they list three teams: Rocket League, Fifa, and Dota 2. There is no League of Legends team. 

PSG and LGD have two entirely different web sites.

So why are you conflating the orgs?

PSG.LGD is a partnership DOTA 2 team.

PSG is is PSG

LGD is LGD.

There will be two separate pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LGDGamingFan (talk • contribs) 17:36, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Where are your sources for all of these claims? A separate URL is not enough to validate any of this. And again, are you supporting the original first proposal or not? Because if so, then consensus would lean towards all the non-Dota 2 info in this article being removed from this article (it's all unsourced anyway). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:41, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Worldless0 (talk) 11:51, 12 September 2018 (UTC) User <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b>, for someone who requires sources, you sure don't add any when you're attributing your edits and rollbacks on data that's actually truthful and easily verifiable. If you're saying LGD Gaming, without PSG.LGD Dota2 team doesn't have any sources or coverup in the media, then you simply are ignorant and don't know where to look, because a simple google search will show you the vast majority of publications about LGD's other teams. And if you go further down to track the Chinese news sources, it's FILLED with LGD media. You're just not aware of it, a.k.a. ignorant on the subject. No offense, but being lazy is not a valid excuse for inactivity. It's all fine having 1 PSG.LGD page and 1 LGD page and I'm sure there are plenty of people that are willing to help out with filling it with correct information. But LGDGamingFan (to whom I have absolutely no relation) is right in everything he has said - PSG is PSG, LGD is LGD. They just have a partnership for this one team. When Louis Vuitton and Supreme or whichever fashion brand collaborate on a line of clothing, they don't actually merge or acquire each other. It's a partnership. It's really that simple and I can't understand why this page hasn't been fixed for the longest time.

I'll leave you off with a few sources you might find useful when separating the pages (not sure how adding ref works, I've never edited on wikipedia before so excuse me if incorrectly formatted)

LGD:    LGD Overwatch: LGD League of Legends:

PSG:  

You should give your contributors more room, afterall who in 2018 is coming here to ruin articles? If we're here, we're trying to help. All of this is public knowledge, you don't require special access or connections to figure it out. I'll be more than glad to assist you in separating the two pages and keeping them fresh and up-to-date. Liquipedia's info is just right and up-to-date (for the most part).
 * You just provided a ton of unreliable, first-party, and social media links. None of the links you provided of which really passes WP:RS or WP:N. Wikipedia needs to have higher standards than this (it's how the page was such a mess in the first place) so check the list at WP:VG/RS for what we should be using instead. Also, why are there two new users creating specifically for discussing this? I don't want to accuse anybody, but I wouldn't be surprised if you guys are either being brigaded from elsewhere to come here, or are alternate accounts from the banned user from above, both of which violates Wikipedia policies. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 17:24, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I didn't give these links to be used as intended references, I provided them for your own convenience, because you're the moderator here and isn't it your job (and your team) to keep these pages up to date? Instead, the page was moved by yourself, without any verifiable sources, which you yourself claim for everything. So why the double standard? Like I said above, ignorance is not an excuse for inaction. Regarding your comment that this is somehow "brigaded", lol I really don't know what to say on these hilarious accusations. From my point of view, people started noticing this article is wrong and they're just speaking up against lazy management. Simple as that. Words are cheap, we should be fixing this instead of arguing. Worldless0 (talk) 00:21, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course we should be fixing it, but you proving unreliable sources doesn't help anything. Since everybody here has ignored the suggestions in the original post, I'll just do option A. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 03:37, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment Worldless0 is now blocked as a sock puppet. -- ferret (talk) 16:00, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * It was very obviously a sock, but was it confirmed via IP or just a strong assumption? ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 16:48, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Checkuser. -- ferret (talk) 16:56, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I see now. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 17:06, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

PSG LGD
I am an esports reporter that went to this page for information and saw that it is completely wrong.

I have no clue as to how you can't tell these are two different organizations. The only relationship they have is the Dota 2 team. I'm going to need you to prove through verifiable sources that PSG.LGD is a single business with shared assets and governing boards. If you cannot prove they are the same business, you need to change the page. Or I will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LGDGamingFan (talk • contribs) 23:06, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Instead of urging others to do your work for you, why don't you, you know, do it yourself, since you're an esports reporter and all? soetermans . ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 08:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

You make a great point, being serious. However, every time I make a change, dissident changes again, for no other reason that to be contrarian. - LGDGamingFan — Preceding unsigned comment added by LGDGamingFan (talk • contribs) 16:01, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Have you even read the original post with the suggestions to fix the page that you apparently keep ignoring? We can either have this page solely focus on the Dota 2/PSG.LGD team and keep the page title at PSG.LGD, as most of the sources specifically cover them, with their other game division lacking obvious mainstream English coverage. And if they don't, then I'm requesting that people, such as you, help provide them. Social media links and Liquidpedia (as a user-generated Wiki) fail WP:N, which is why they aren't accepted. Alternatively, we can move the page back to LGD Gaming, and have PSG.LGD redirect to the Dota 2 section like it did before I moved the page. And like I said in the original post above, if you guys truly wished to help fix the page and not just rant, you would have clearly made your opinion on which suggestion you prefer so we can go ahead and get on with it. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 03:35, 21 September 2018 (UTC)


 * If PSG.LGD is the Dota 2 team, and the Dota 2 received and still receives the most coverage, then this page should be about the Dota 2. The only thing that should be noted clearly is that PSG.LGD is strongly connected to LGD Gaming, and there you could state that LGD Gaming also has teams in other games. What I still find confusing in the article is that the lead states the team was founded in 2018 with the PSD partnership, but the body only says that the 2009-founded team was renamed. I, personally, find the second option more plausible, as long as the rest of the body states that we are talking about the Dota 2 team, not the organization as a whole. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 06:25, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I forgot to do that in the change yesterday. If this is solely discussing the Dota 2 team, then stuff like that should be reflected too. I still think that a separate LGD Gaming article is possible only if the non-Dota sourcing is there, which I've yet to really see. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 16:47, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Let me ask you something. So on this page it lists LGD Gaming as being a member of the LPL (League of Legends Pro League from China, which is run by Tencent), yet a stand alone page regarding their other sports was REMOVED by you Dissedent93. Does this mean that Wikipedia does not meet your standards as a source? Please help me understand that LGD Gaming, a stand alone sports organization who participates in multiple esports cannot get it's own page, when Wikipedia itself has them in multiple esports leagues. I'll wait. LGDGamingFan (talk) 15:33, 4 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Uh, yes, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, especially not for proving any sort of notability in regards to WP:GNG. It's probably time you drop the stick and move on, the stand alone page is extremely unlikely to exist at this time. Notability requires indepth coverage by secondary reliable sources, and throughout all of this, you've failed to provide any such sourcing. -- ferret (talk) 19:50, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The user just doesn't seem to the difference between WP:N and WP:V. If the non-Dota divisions of LGD had proper coverage, then none of this would be an issue. Perhaps if the Dota 2 division didn't have this named PSG partnership, then you could let some basic info about LoL and their other game divisions remain in the article. As this partnership could end at any time, maybe we could move this page back to LGD Gaming and simply have the scope of the article remain primarily about Dota 2 while adding the most basic of info about everything else? So basic WP:V stuff noting that it exists, but nothing like rosters and tournament results. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 22:43, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

"Uh, yes, Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source..." - OK, I'll make sure to quote you on this. 68.135.154.125 (talk) 00:32, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You don't have to quote me. Read WP:USERG yourself. -- ferret (talk) 00:38, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose merging this article, PSG.LGD, into PSG Esports. This Dota 2 team does not prove itself to be independently notable, and enough information can be given in sections under PSG Esports and LGD Gaming. PSG Esports even has more content about PSG.LGD than the PSG.LGD article has itself. This article is an unnecessary content fork. Paul Vaurie (talk) 00:06, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Why merge with PSG, why not merge with LGD Gaming. Having the same information in both PSG and LGD articles will lead to inconsistency and likely inaccurate articles. I would say leave it as a standalone article, given two parent articles. Paul    Bradbury  11:22, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Subject is independently notable. Sources exist from The Flying Courier (Polygon), The Esports Observer (Sports Business Journal), Kotaku, as well as plenty of articles from ESPN, VPEsports (WP:VG/RS), and Dot Esports (WP:VG/RS). – Pbrks (t • c) 15:49, 11 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I previously had LGD Gaming redirect to PSG.LGD since their other division in League in Legends failed notability checks. Some other user brought it back (by copying over the uncited crap from Liquidpedia) since. I also oppose merging it to PSG Esports per Pbrks. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 07:43, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose: But LGD Gaming shouldn't be redirected to PSG.LGD either. The former owns many divisions such as LoL, CF. What's more, LGD Gaming LoL division took part in 2015 League of Legends World Championship as the 1st seed. Of course PSG.LGD can be mentioned in LGD Gaming and PSG Esports. --Easterlies (talk) 14:37, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd still like to see proper citations on the LGD article though. See my responses from 2019. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 18:34, 19 October 2021 (UTC)