Talk:PT boat

Updates
I'm not sure if this is worth preserving, but when I found it, the page originally contained:


 * "Patrol Torpedo" boat - used by the United States Navy in the South Pacific in World War II. About 40 feet long, wood hull, inboard engine, two torpedo tubes on each gunwale pointed forward, two .50-cal machine guns (?), crew of four (?)


 * United States President John F. Kennedy was the captain of a PT boat (PT 109) in World War II.


 * FIX this needs lots of work.

If there was ever a PT boat that only had a crew of four, I can't find it -- I assume the original author was simply guessing. If I'm wrong, please correct me! --The Epopt

Yeah, I think this can lose it's "Stub" tag now... nice work :) - MMGB

I was the original author - thank you for doing a proper job with this page. RAE

I'm pretty sure torpedo boats existed before WWII, in fact, IIRC, the destroyer class ship was created initially to counter small fast torpedo boats in WWI. Does someone have references? -- ansible

Yes, the destroyer (Originally "Torpedo boat destroyer" in german) was created to deal with the torpedo boats. All this information looks very good, but I think a good deal of it should be moved to Torpedo Boat as that is the ship class. PT boat is simply a name for a serie of american ships. It is like listing information about battleships under Bismarck... For a reference I would recommend "The development of fighting ships", if you can get your hands on it. Otherwise "Destroyers" gives a rather good overview. Also there is a short overview at global security: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/destroyers.htm P.S. 13:47, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Torpedo boats in WWI were much larger. --WerWil 23:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Coming soon
The article says,
 * "What neither the PT Boat crews, nor their comrades in the submarine service knew in this time frame was that their torpedoes were defective. The American torpedoes ran at depths well below their set depth, and both of the firing mechanisms built into the torpedo regularly malfunctioned. The more squarely the torpedo was lined up on the target, the more likely the torpedo was to fail. Either the torpedo would run under the target, the torpedo would explode prematurely, or it would strike the target and break apart without exploding. Interestingly, early German torpedoes had suffered almost identical defects."

While this applied to the Mk14, the antique Mk8, which might have suffered the deep-running problem, was not designed for or fitted with the Mk6 magnetic exploder, & so shouldn't have suffered prematures (which doesn't exclude the possibility sheer age of the arming & firing mechanisms causing them...). As for duds from square-on hits, this was (AFAIK) exclusively a Mk6 problem; the Mk10 didn't suffer from it, & I doubt the Mk8 did, either. The later Mk13 probably suffered from it & other troubles; it was worse than the Mk14. This issue needs more research & correction. Trekphiler 02:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * On reflection, I deleted the above as irrelevant or unsubstantiated. Trekphiler 06:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

37mm M3 on PT boats
Perhaps somebody knows... Is there any information about the 37mm anti-tank gun M3 / M3A1 mounted on PT boats other than the PT-109 ? Or on any other ships ? Thanks in advance. Bukvoed 18:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It turns out, there is:
 * ...in fact there were 8 to 10 boats that had/were to have this mounting... The guns came from and were mounted by members of the US Army 25th Infantry Division. - http://www.pt103.com/
 * M3A1 37mm Anti-Tank Gun Mounting Drawings - http://www.pt108lilduck.com/specs.html
 * Bukvoed 17:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Medal of Honor Rising Sun
On the second level, is that a PT boat you are on? Because it does not look like one. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.125.254.254 (talk) 13:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

== This article says the Higgins built PT boats were "used in great numbers during the D-Day landings" and goes on to state "Gen. Eisenhower said that that the Higgins boats won the war for us".

The Higgins boats Ike was referring to were the Higgins built LCVPs (Landing Craft, Vehicle & Personnel) that were the backbone of US amphibious assaults, not PT boats. Over 20,000 Higgins LCVPs were built. My father hit the beach three times from LCVPs in the Pacific. http://www.ussrankin.org/id41.htm 65.199.155.32 21:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Minor edit
166 Gallons are 628 Liters, not 250. fix'd MikeTango 04:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

More about defective torpedos
The article has this sentence "The effectiveness of PT boats in the Solomon Islands campaign, where there were numerous engagements between PTs and capital ships, was substantially undermined by defective torpedoes." What kind of defects? The Mark 8 was pretty old by then, were these torpedos made new with new defects or were they age-related defects? Is this sentence confusing the Mark 14 torpedo problem the subs were having? The Mark 15 used by DDs was having similar Mark 14-style problems but AFAIK the PTs were okay with their elderly 1917-ish Mark 8 design. Binksternet 12:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was 2 things, as I understand it. First was age (I suspect the warheads had been filled for years, & the explosive got old & sensitive, & prematured, leading to the spurious "hits"). Second, as in the Mk14s/15s, the exploder design was defective (in the Mk14, the contact pistol would crush on impact, rather than fire; the Mk14/15's magnetic feature caused numerous prematures); I may be mistaken, here, because the Mk10 (contact pistol) was OK. USN torpedoes had several (unrelated) design problems, from what I've read; exactly what they were, I'm honestly not familiar enough with the issue to say with certainty, without sources in front of me. And don't forget, PTs also used Mk13 aircraft torpedoes, which had even more problems than the Mk14s. Without specifying the date of the engagement, or the type of firing mechanism (the Mk8 used tubes, Mk13 racks), knowing the problems actually encountered is a bit hard. Feel up to doing some research? Trekphiler 17:12, 14 October 2007 (UTC) (P.S. You may be right about "confusing the Mk14 problem", but IIRC, PTs reported independent troubles. Whether it was the Mk8 or Mk13, I couldn't say.)

Gen. Eisenhower and Higgins boats
The Higgins boats that Gen. Eisenhower was referring to was not the PT boats but the Landing Craft http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgins_boat 72.27.58.29 (talk) 12:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is getting to be too big!
It seems like a lot of people are incorporating information that may be better suited somewhere else. Things about the Great Britain Royal Navy MTB's and Steam Gunboats and German S-Boote dont really belong in an article about the US PT Boats. Same goes for the WW1 Torpedo Boats. It is really interesting and good information I will grant, but it seems to be interfering with the overall scope of the main subject of the article, which is after all, PT Boats. Just a thought, maybe somebody knowledgeable about those other subjects could start an article about them and move the info into that other article, and provide a link to this article.

Also, I fail to see the value in changing every single measurement into its metric equivalent. OK one or 2 examples is fine, but providing parenthetic metric equivalencies for each and every measurement or diameter etc is very detracting from the flow of the sentence. Thanks! Jerry 1-23-08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.136.3 (talk) 13:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"PT boats were uniquely U.S.!"
I am not sure what the editor ment by this but I would like to point out that at least the Elco class were used by the Royal Norwegian Navy and that the Norwegian Nasty class was used by the US Navy. So US PT boats were used by other navies and foreign PT boats were used by the US Navy.Inge (talk) 13:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey Inge, All I meant was that only the US Navy referred to them as "PT Boats" during a specific time period of World War 2 (1941-1945). Since this is an article on "PT Boats" (and not MTB's or MGB's or TB's or S-Boats or what have you) we should stick to the subject and the time period. Placing information about a torpedo boat used in 1972 in Vietnam has no business being in an article about "PT Boats", which is both time and nation specific to WW2 US Navy. Wikipedia has articles already covering those other types of boats so therefore a bunch of information about them placed into this article detracts somewhat from the subject. Amplifying information is fine, but there is a point where it becomes too much, in my humble opinion. But yes, other Navies did use this type of boat and called them something other than "PT Boat". The USN did not really ever use foreign made PT Boats in active service during WW2. (if you were referring to the Vosper boats, they were manufactured under liscence in the US during the war I believe,at Annapolis Boat Yard and at Miami Shipbuilding, and even these were pretty much -all- sent overseas to allied nations) Jerry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.134.136.3 (talk) 11:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe necroing this, but it's worth pointing out for anyone else that Wikipedia frowns on the use of the term 'S-boat'. We far prefer the wartime Allied brevity code 'E-boat'*, with all of its lack of clarity and inconsistency, to any attempt to use a term which can specifically only refer to a German motor torpedo boat and not just any unidentified launch. In the same spirit, we do not call the Junkers 87 article 'Stuka' but instead use a redirect. Likewise, the MFP article is named 'Flak lighter' (oh, no it isn't).
 * (Or 'E' boat as it's recorded in naval identification guides of the time, betraying the fact that it was just a generic nickname or brevity code for vessels of similar classes being encountered in situations where definitive identification of class was unlikely to be accurate or even possible and may even have been erroneous. But such issues did not matter in wartime to the crews of MTBs or patrol aircraft and neither should they be of any importance to an encyclopedia.)
 * I post this in the hope that someone will notice the discrepancy here. The fact that many modern authors still use the 'Battle' comic-book-friendly 'E-boat' for sales purposes does not take away from the fact that numerous authors also use the term 'S-boat' and it seems that 'common usage' is being misapplied to that article.
 * Or else we'd have an article called 'Flak lighter' or 'F-lighter'. 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:3063:2CFA:2CBB:6B4C (talk) 01:36, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

"US PT Boat torpedo success in WW2"
Here is a little background research/information I came across concerning US PT Boat torpedo successes against the Japanese Navy (IJN) and the other axis powers (Germany, Italy) found in Robert J Bulkeleys authoritative book "At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy", at the beginning of this wikipedia page about PT Boats, it implies a virtually complete lack of success by USN PTs with torpedoes. Well...I beg to differ! read the facts below and decide for yourself! Jerry


 * Night of 24 January 1942, PT 41 torpedoed a Japanese transport at Subic Bay.
 * Night of 1 February 1942, PT 32 torpedoed and damaged IJN minelayer YAEYAMA in Subic Bay.
 * Night of 8 April 1942, PT 34 and PT 41 torpedoed and damaged IJN light cruiser KUMA in action off Cebu.
 * Night of December 9, 1942, PT 59 torpedoed and sank IJN submarine I-3 at Kamimbo Bay, Guadalcanal.
 * Night of December 11, 1942 PT 44 and PT 110 torpedoed and sank IJN destroyer TERUTSUKI off Guadalcanal.
 * Night of January 10, 1943, PTs 45, 39, 48, 115, 43, 40, 112, 59, 46, and 36 in action off Cape Esperance torpedoed and damaged IJN destroyer HATSUKAZE.
 * Night of December 24/25, 1942, PT 122 apparently torpedoed and sank IJN submarine I-22 at Tufi, New Guinea, though recent investigations cast doubt on that assessment.
 * Night of March 3, 1943, in the wake of the Battle of the Bismarck Sea, PT 143 and PT 150 torpedoed and sank the already-damaged IJN transport OIGAWA MARU, 6,493 tons.
 * Night of May 8/9, 1943, PT 206 torpedoed and sank a German tanker in Ras Idda Bay during the North African campaign.
 * On July 24, 1943, PT 216 torpedoed and sank the 8,800-ton Italian merchant ship VIMINALE near Palmi.
 * Night of October 22/23, 1943, PT 212 torpedoed and sank an Italian corvette converted for use as a cargo carrier in the Maddalena-Bastia area.
 * Night of November 2/3, 1943, PT 211 and PT 207 torpedoed and sank German subchaser 2206 off Giglio Island.
 * Night of May 23/24, 1944, PT 202 and PT 213 torpedoed and sank German corvette UJ-2223 and torpedoed and damaged German corvette UJ-2222 near Vada Rocks.
 * Night of June 14/15, 1944, PT 558, PT 552, and PT 559 torpedoed and sank German corvettes TA 26 and TA 30 between La Spezia and Genoa.
 * Night of November 2, 1944, PT 308 torpedoed and sank German subchaser UJ-2207 off Portofino.
 * Night of October 24/25, 1944, a PT torpedoed and damaged IJN light cruiser ABUKUMA during the Battle of Surigao Strait.
 * Night of October 24/25, 1944, PT 323 torpedoed the damaged IJN destroyer ASAGUMO during the Battle of Surigao Strait.
 * Night of November 28/29, 1944, PT 127 and PT 331 torpedoed and sank IJN subchaser No. 52 and Patrol Boat No. 105 at Ormoc Bay.
 * Night of December 11/12, 1944, PT 492 torpedoed and sank IJN destroyer UZUKI at Palomplon, Leyte.
 * Night of December 26, 1944, PT 223 torpedoed and sank damaged IJN destroyer KIYOSHINO off Mindoro.
 * Night of January 23/24, 1945, PT 532 torpedoed and damaged a 6,000-ton Japanese freighter in Lingayen Gulf; the ship, its bows blown off, was beached and abandoned.

Source: Bulkeley, Robert J., Jr., Captain, USN (Ret.). At Close Quarters: PT Boats in the United States Navy. Washington, D.C.: Naval History Division, 1962. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.183.121.4 (talk) 15:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "decide for yourself" indeed. Just off the top, Fitzsimons, w naval ed Antony Preston (Illustrated Encyclopedia of 20th Century Weapons & Warfare {London: Phoebus, 1978}), says Kuma was sunk in January 1944 by HMSub Tally Ho Volume 16, p.1683); Hatsukaze 2/11/43 by U.S. destroyers including Spence (Volume 14, p.1542); & I-22 lost to "marine casualty" (Volume 13, p.1404). Was Bulkeley using wartime credit, or relying on JANAC? As bad as JANAC was, it was better than the wartime accounting, which couldn't (or didn't) weed out mistaken claims from torpedo failures (for instance).  Trekphiler (talk) 14:44, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

The list above does not claim that Kuma or Hatsukaze was sunk, it says "torpedoed and damaged". What is JANAC anyway? Please enlighten me. Thanks Jerry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.182.124.2 (talk) 12:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * "The list above does not claim that Kuma or Hatsukaze was sunk". Noted. I'd just treat the list with caution, since Bulkeley was a PT sailor & hence had reason to stretch things. JANAC? It's the postwar accounting of Sub Force claims (maybe others, too, which is why I ask), the Joint Army-Navy Assessment Committee. It relied on both U.S. & Japanese records & was notoriously unreliable, denying credit where there were numerous eyewitnesses & photos, giving credit to boats far away from the cited sinkings; also, Japanese records were in chaos by war's end...& at least some U.S. records from early in the war were pretty chaotic, too. Trekphiler (talk) 13:49, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"How do I provide a citation needed to remove the label about torpedo depth settings"
I have a question about how to do something in this article. Under the Heading "Service" about 6 paragraphs down from the first paragraph, it talks about "Barge Busters" and how the Torpedoes minimum depth setting was 10 feet. Then somebody put "(citation needed)". So I have several methods to prove this, namely, we have four real Mark 13 torpedoes on board the PT658 and I also have several US Navy Weapons Technical Manuals. All of these show the depth setting dial is marked between 10 and 60 feet (sorry dudes, it aint metric!) Anyway do I need to cite the specific manual number etc or show a photo of the torpedo or what? Besides, who put that "citation needed" label thing on there anyhow? (It looks like Trekphiler according to the history) Can you take my word for it and remove the (fact)label? I could email you the info if you want to see it with your own eyes. Thanks for your help in advance Jerry (PT658 crewman) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.245.96.162 (talk) 07:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you've got the manual, cite the number (publication date too, if it's mentioned) & page #; list the publisher as U.S. Government Printing Office, place DC: Clear? Then, delete the  tag.  Trekphiler (talk) 09:45 & 09:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC) P.S. Don't forget to sign your posts: ~ )

Thanks trekphiler! Heres the dope: "Naval Ordnance and Gunnery" NAVPERS 16116-A Revised Edition March 1946 US Govt Printing Office, Chapter 9 Torpedoes, Mines, Depth Charges, Release Gear and Rockets, Section B Torpedoes Section 9B14 Depth Mechanism, Operation, Page 212 and 213.

Also "Description, Operation and Care of US Navy Torpedoes, Mark 13-1 and 2, July 1943". Dept of the Navy Bureau of Ordnance, (Restricted) Ordnance Pamphlet No 950 Chapter 6, Page 128-130 "The Depth Mechanism"

Also

"Naval Ordnance and Gunnery Volume I Naval Ordnance US Naval Acadamy NAVPERS 10797-A 1955 Edition Revised 1957, "Chapter 12-Torpedoes" Section 12F8 "Depth Mechanism"

Also

"Motor Torpedo Boats Tactical Orders and Doctrine" July 1942 (US GPO Washington DC 1942) Part 4 "Armament Doctrines and Standard Procedures" Page 68 "Depth Settings for Torpedoes"

Also My personally looking at the depth setting mechanism and markings on 4 genuine WW2 era Mark 13 Torpedoes that we have installed on board USS PT658 in Portland Oregon

Thanks Jerry Jngilmar (talk) 08:04, 24 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jngilmar (talk • contribs) 07:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Jerry, I believe I've got the 1946 cite into the article correctly. Binksternet (talk) 09:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks binksternet! Jerry

Background on Argentine PT Boats
I went to the Argentine website and translated their story called "What happened to the 10 Higgins PT Boats" Here is my translation below. Jerry

http://www.histarmar.com.ar/Armada%20Argentina/Buques1900a1970/LanchasRapidas.htm

What happened to the 10 Argentine Higgins PT Boats? (As of 2004)

STATIC/DERELICT 1.-Towora: stayed in the Navy ( It was sister ship to the Association Fueguina of Subaquatic and Nautical Activities (AFASyN), and is now being used as a landlocked static display in the ground next to the old airport, in process of reconstruction in Usuahia. Thank you Javier Urruty

SUNK 2.-Alakush: stayed in the Navy until it was sunk as naval target in the 1990's, and it seems that it was difficult for them to sink.

SUNK 3.-Exploded in River Santiago in the 1950's. The explosion was from the fumes of aviation gasoline that was used as fuel for the Packard engines. The other boats mostly were operated by the "Mar de Plata" (River Plate) Prefecture and then they returned to the ALTAR and they were sold in public auction.

SCRAPPED 4, 5 and 6:.-Scrapped by scrap dealers of River Plate, and demolitioned to extract the aluminum and bronze metal of the structure during the 1960's

DERELICT 7.-“ Don Luis “: Abandoned in Bariloche, Huemul Island. Used as Excursion boat from 1970's up to the late 1990's. Seemingly it sank at the wharf, then it was refloated for a while and is now stranded on Huemul island. (As of April 2004)

OPERATING 8.-“ Leonardo da Vinci “: Active in River Plate as tour boat, it is home ported there. The current owner is the son of the boats original buyer in the late 1960's. He also helped to obtain most of the information in this update.

OPERATING 9.-“ City of Mar del Plata ”. It is active in River Plate (Mar del Plata) as tourboat, it is homeported there since the late 1960's.

SUNK 10.-"Senora Maria" Destroyed in a Fire in Necochea where it was used as tourboat in 70's.

As demonstration of the tough construction of these wooden boats, when the "Senora Maria" caught fire, there was a person was trapped in the stern by the fire. During rescue attempts, a large Mercedes Benz 1114 truck available at the wharf repeatedly rammed the boats aft quarter trying to open an exit, until finally the efforts were halted since the trucks impacts were insufficient and the person died. Of all the PT boats that were constructed in WW2, there are 2 in Argentina that are still operational.

Difference between "conventional" and "motor torpedo boat"
This line: " However, the motor torpedo boat was much faster, smaller, and cheaper than the conventional torpedo boat" doesn't seem to make much sense. How is a MTB different from a conventional torpedo boat? Does "conventional" refer to pre-WWII boats, or the older pre-WWI designs (used by many navies)? Or does "conventional" mean something else? Please clarify this line or remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pmarshal (talk • contribs) 12:12, 25 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The earlier 'torpedo boats' were powered by steam turbines, and when the MTB was devised the 'motor' part of the name indicated that the new vessels were powered by petrol (gasoline) engines. Later the 'motor' part could also be a diesel engine, but petrol ones were used initially as they were more powerful. After 1945, marine gas turbines were also used, and these were also referred to as 'motors'. In marine classification 'motor' refers to a petrol or diesel piston engine or gas turbine, as opposed to steam turbines.


 * BTW, they were referred to as 'boats' because the early ones, like the first submarines, weren't large enough to deserve the title of 'ship'. That's also why most were not given individual names, only pennant numbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.4.57.101 (talk) 19:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Wiki Family Robinson
This
 * "A small 2-man muslin covered cork liferaft was normally mounted on the forward deck, though it was displaced by guns mounted on the bow after mid-1943, and moved to the top of the chart house or farther aft."

struck me as very poorly placed, when the discussion was about PTG effectiveness. Feel free to put it back in the description. TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  11:41, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

FACs of life
Not going to edit war over it, but use of the modern term in an article about a WW2 subject is what bugs me. If it'd stayed MTB, with FAC as "see also", I'd be happier. TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  01:23, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * If you prefer "fast torpedo boat" I wouldn't object, however we write WP in modern English whatever the language used at the period/location of the subject. The TB article could do with some editting re its relationship with FAC. DexDor (talk) 07:50, 2 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Then, yet again, I disagree with the policy. :) Would "a type of torpedo boat" suit you, plus the FAC "see also"?   TREKphiler   any time you're ready, Uhura  14:19, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * See, the clash of terminology (current/correct vs 'classical' or 'historical contemporary') regarding the English WP inconsistency of this policy between Marinefahrprahm / 'F-lighter' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinefährprahm), Vorpostenboot / 'Flak trawler' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorpostenboot) and Schnellboot / 'E-boat' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-boat).
 * In the first and second articles, you'll note that the actual term (without even using a direct English-language translation either, but the native-language term at that) is deemed by Wikipedia editors to be appropriate and in line with WP article name policies, whereas in the case of third article, the name is an exigent brevity code or foreign-language nickname which lacks specificity (even going so far as to note this in the opening paragraph). There is even this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-boat which actually acknowledges the Anglicised form of the native-language term, but then the native-language term is redirected to the wartime enemy's nickname.
 * Posted in this article's talk because someone on here might care enough about coastal warfare matters enough to want to try and sort this out / impose some consistency on it. Because the talk page for the schnellboot article is patrolled by hostile and obstructive editors who aren't interested in what a non-editor has to say on the subject. Help! 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:3063:2CFA:2CBB:6B4C (talk) 02:06, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Listing of the boats that were destroyed between 1998 and 2008
To answer the request for citation: these recently destroyed boats are identified as follows: ex-PT308 Higgins in 2006 in Dagsboro, DE, ex-PT659 Higgins in 2008 in Vancouver, WA, ex-RN MGB69 Higgins in 2004 in Chertsey, UK, ex-PT761 Elco in 2003 in Jacksonville Beach, FL, and ex-PT695 Vosper in 2003 in Rio Vista, CA, all destroyed for various exact reasons but mostly due to lack of funding for restoration. This info was available in this article in past revisions but was removed since these boats were destroyed and therefore don't matter anymore. I dont really understand the need for a citation required for this, but there you have it, the names and types of the boats and where they were when they were destroyed. If this does not suit your requirements to explain the citation, let me know what you need to see to be satisfied and I will strive to list it here. Thanks Jerry Jngilmar (talk) 01:53, 20 January 2015 (UTC)


 * You need to cite reliable sources per WP:RS. Personal knowledge is not acceptable per WP:OR. - BilCat (talk) 02:03, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

OK BilCat so please explain why this is so important to Have a citation for a persons request for an update? The guy asked Why were these boats destroyed and why so recently? All I did was answer his question! SO I can find some newspaper artoicles that describe each of these boats being destroyed, but is that really necessary? Why are you being so negative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jngilmar (talk • contribs) 02:05, 20 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's really necessary. You've been around WP long enough that you shouldn't need that explained to you. - BilCat (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

PT308 http://cpg.stparchive.com/Archive/CPG/CPG08292006p14.php PT659 http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2008/may/14/pt-boat-salvaged-for-parts/ still working on PT695 Deunanknute (talk) 02:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)