Talk:Pachinko/Archive 1

Opening comment
Do arrests for gambling really never occur, or are they just rare? - Hephaestos 05:57 3 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Ammunition
I read that it was invented to profit from surplus ammunition from WW2.


 * So find that again and use it as a cited source. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 01:21, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Misinformation
Pachinko originally was *NOT* a cross between slots and pinball. Indeeded originally the slot machines were completely missing leaving only the spaces where ther balls could go to earn additional pachinko balls. I suggest the page be corrected.


 * This is partly true. Orignally Pachinko machines had nothing to do with a slot machine, however the modern machines all have a video component that is triggered by the mechanical action of the balls.  So modern machines are a "cross"... --Gblaz


 * I suggest you both cite your sources. -Nathew 00:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Most' of pachinko has video component, but few machine has no video component still now. Just look at this. http://www.p-world.co.jp/_machine/kisyu.cgi?kisyu=p5432 It's called "Futuu-ki(mean normal-type)", has no Jackpot, so you can get a little win when ball hit winner hole. 222.146.119.66 (talk) 11:33, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Trance link
I removed the link to the trance disambiguation page since, as far as I can tell, the Pachinko machine does not induce an altered state of consciousness which is the only article given on the disambiguation page that I thought could possibly be relevant.

If the machine really does put its user in a trance, then feel free to link to the altered state of consciousness article, or link to a more relevant article if one exists.

Thanks, --Matthew Auger 22:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Weird claims like that should never be added to an article without reliable sources. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 01:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * actually, YES it can put a user in a trance. And it can ruin lives. And someone very evil knows this and is using it to harm vulnerable people and using the internet as the means to do so. 70.175.194.18 (talk) 06:25, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

History
I read in this article (http://www.pingmag.jp/2006/04/06/pachinko-designs/) that Pachinko originated in the 1920's, so perhaps the WWII ref should be changed to WWI.

12.11.157.254 15:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)tastewar
 * The article's been fixed. It now says the game was introduced in the 1920s and cites a source. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 05:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Super Mario Sunshine
Is the "See also" link to Super Mario Sunshine really necessary? I mean, according to the SMS page, a mini-game resembling pachinko exists in a secret level. Does that really make it noteworthy enough to include a link on the pachinko page? There have been (literally) dozens of video games that do nothing but simulate pachinko- why not include "See also" links to every one of those games? -- Kicking222 16:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm making my own decision- since the user who added the SMS link is apparently a new user with the only thing on his user talk page being a vandalism warning (not that I'm claiming this is vandalism in any way, as it's not), I'm choosing to remove the link. If anyone cares... well, now you know. Feel free to discuss. -- Kicking222 16:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Pictures
Four pictures, but no clear pictures of a pachinko machine. Does that strike anyone else as odd? --Elijah 21:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Funny how I came to this article to learn what a pachinko machine was, but I still only have a vague idea. An actual photo of one would go a long way to illustrate this topic. 67.175.75.186 08:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

100% agreement. Just as with the anonymous user, I came here to see what Pachinko is. I still don't know what Pachinko is or looks like. - JNighthawk 16:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, add my voice to the choir. It's an article on pachinko, without one single clear picture showing what a pachinko game looks like. That definitely needs to be fixed. Can we copy any from the Google Image search on pachinko? A picture of a few pachinko balls might be good too. -- HiEv 20:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I live in Japan so I'll try to take a picture of one and post it. I don't think, however, that most pachinko parlor's usually allow that but I'll try.  It may take me awhile to get it posted. Cla68 00:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There's some decent pics that can be viewed on eBay if you put in pachinko as a search term. -Timvasquez 04:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I can only echo the frustration above... the article really needs a photo of the subject. I vaguely remember seeing them on TV once, but was hoping for a clear photo... especially of the new "hybrid". For now I'll follow the Google link. Good article though! 213.122.90.153 11:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I was upset by this too, and decided to do some hunting on flickr. I found a few Open pictures that I'll add later unless somebody beats me to it (time for bed). There are also some clearer wide/"actoin" shots. Finally, what's the deal with the street performers advertising a new parlor? How is that really related to pachinko? --Belg4mit 06:57, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


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Online pachinko
Is this for real? As far as I've been able to confirm, you can play for money. But the games themselves arent that well made, which makes me wonder if they count.

Are these games sanctioned by the 'Interactive Gaming Council'? That would be a quick way to verify if they are "legitimate".

I hear some people argue there is an element of skill involved, while others claim this is balderdash. I honestly don't know, but it seems like something worth mentioning in the article.

RE: Take a look at the links below

http://www.gamblingcompliance.com/node/7598

http://www.onlinepachisuro.com/index.php


 * There seems to be alot of buzz going around of online pachinko and pachisuro games to be appearing soon. This year apparently. They say mid-October.


 * I found this information site. Its in japanese though.


 * —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jason j 13 (talk • contribs) 12:38, August 24, 2007 (UTC)


 * All Jason 13's contributions relate to online pachinko. These "there is a lot of buzz going around" and "Is this for real" posts remind me of spam.


 * Definitely. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 01:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) Yes, my personal opinion is that online pachinko and pachisuro will appear sooner or later-If they dont exist already. Although Jason 13s dates are off, in my opinion, it is bound to happen. As a matter of fact, there already exist a few "play for fun" online pachinko and pachisuro sites out there (Yahoo Games Japan among them) and have been around for a while, so I dont see why a hypothetical real online pachinko is unfeasable. If a western gambling form such as online poker and blackjack can be successful here, I dont see why a Japanese form cannot be. (Although, online pokers success here may be due to the fact that it is hard to find a willing partner with enough time and money to play with in Japan- Due to the lifestyle)

There is definitely a market for something like this in my opinion. The "brick and mortar" pachinko industry is huge here　-　it must be worth billions(needs citation-Will this do?http://www.gamblingcompliance.com/node/7598 ).- In addition, I read a satistic somewhere that over 70 percent of Japanese households own a PC (But this needs to be confirmed-I know), in addition to having one of the most up to date infrastructure in the world (Also needs citation). (Being in Japan, proving that technology is widespread just seems silly, so forgive me if I come off a bit too strong-I mean...they have finger print ID phones with credit cards, GPS, internet, TV, games, camcorders and MP3 players built in them- so much that PC sales are dropping, automatic cab doors as well as talking vending machines, elevators and, robot pets! These are all normal things here!- Huh, what?, Citation!!?? Argghh!! LOL)

As far as the law is concerned, gambling is supposed to be illegal in Japan- Period. How land based pachinkos work is a mystery to me. But simply their existence is enough to convince me that there would be a way to create virtual pachinkos.

The underlying point is that it is a definite possibility.

The site link that Jason 13 posted is an info site among other sites where you can find info about online gambling in Japan.

Just search under オンラインパチンコ or オンラインパチスロ (online pachinko or online pachisuro) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.102.203.105 (talk) 15:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Legal question
How is it that Pachinko balls can be traded in for prizes and money, but medals from medal games cannot? Just seems like they should both fall under the same law. Especially since some medal games allow you to get 10,000 yen in medals at a time, with seemingly no way to make any money back...strange to spend that much on just an entertaining game... Mwv2 (talk) 13:18, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

nobody knows I guess? lol Mwv2 (talk) 05:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Most likely because the medal games are not owned by Koreans, are not connected to the Yakuza, and do not pay bribes to the Japanese police. --Westwind273 (talk) 04:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

That very well could be. But it still seems odd to me. There is obviously a market for them, you'd think if nothing else the Pachinko Parlors would add a few of their own. I dont' think we can find a definitive answer without being fluent in Japanese though. Oh well, thanks for the comment Mwv2 (talk) 15:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I live and work in Japan and am fluent in Japanese. First, I find it highly dubious that Pachiko parlors are mostly Korean owned, although I admit that as I write this I haven't checked the link in the article for authenticity. Pachinko is everywhere in Japan and, given its borderline illegal reputation and thusly its close ties to Yakuza, I have a hard time believing Japanese organized crime (notoriously racist) would willfully put what is for sure a substantially profitable business in the hands of foreigners. I also find it hard to believe that Pachinko parlors are taking out "bribe taxes" on their ball bearings when a) technically nothing illegal is going on, and b) pachinko certainly plays a moderate role in driving Japan's economy. Besides, the article makes it seem like these "bribe taxes" are written on the door, and why would any business so readily admit to doing something illegal to cover up something else illegal? My guess is these "bribe taxes" are actually just a regular tax taken out to maximize profits.

Secondly, I don't think the medal games thing has anything to do with Yakuza connections or the like. My guess is that medal games don't offer payouts because they're located in family establishments like arcades, entertainment centers, etc. And last time I checked the medals at most establishments can be traded in for a variety of goods, so you're still playing for profit, you just have to go the extra step and sell the bike you won at medal games on ebay to get the money. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.220.17.155 (talk) 13:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone ever tried reporting a Pachinko gift exchange system to the local koban or police department? On the one hand, I would assume the police would say that it is not directly connected to the Pachinko operation. But then I wonder what would happen if I were to set up a craps game operation in Japan, and use the same gift exchange system as the rewards. Would the police then come after me? I think they would. So why is this gift exchange sham only tolerated for Pachinko and not other types of gambling? Herein lies the proof that there is a shady and immoral arrangement between the police and the Yakuza. The previous commenter's take on the Yakuza is, I believe, mistaken. The Yakuza themselves contain heavy doses of both Japanese of Korean ancestry and of Burakumin (the untouchable class). It is somewhat in rebellion against discrimination that members of these groups joined the Yakuza. In my experience, the Yakuza are not racist at all; they have important ties to the parallel organized crime organizations in Korea and China. --Westwind273 (talk) 01:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Lots of speculation folks. This is not a webboard.  Wikipedia article's talk pages are exclusively for improving the article, not for Q and A sessions or what-iffing. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 05:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems like the Wikinazis have hit the talk pages again. Think about it, wouldn't it improve the article if the legality of Pachinko were more clearly explained?  Unfortunately, some feel the need to 'lord it over' there rest of us.  :(  --Westwind273 (talk) 15:16, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Game play, old machines
The "How it works" section has a lengthy discussion of game play, but doesn't make it clear how much of the discussion is entirely generic and how much only applies to the more recent machines. It would be helpful to have a better explanation of the most generic features of the game, which would apply to old gravity-fed games as well, followed by more specifics on the recent machines.--76.167.77.165 (talk) 15:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I added some history of old mechanical machines. There is now some duplication that should be cleaned up.--76.167.77.165 (talk) 18:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Finding exchange places
"Firstly, parlor staff members are not supposed to ever tell a player where they can exchange their tokens for cash because of legality issues, so players are expected to find out this information on their own." Is this so? I once hit a few jackpots at a pachinko parlor and a staff member took us across the street, down the back alley to the exchange center, and knocked on the window for us. We were obviously westerners and did not speak good Japanese, so he may have simply been friendly. 71.198.172.4 (talk) 10:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Your personal experiences can't be cited as sources. That whole section is unsourced and is going to get deleted anyway if that's not fixed. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 05:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Pachinko parlors in the United States?
Are Pachinko parlors legal anywhere in the U.S.? It seems to me that it would be considered the same as Ski-ball. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.45.171 (talk) 03:35, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Are Pachinko parlors legal in the US? I'm guessing they aren't (haven't seen one yet), but they don't seem to be much different than Ski Ball, so why not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.100.52.87 (talk) 01:50, 23 January 2010 (UTC)


 * If they had it, then it probably will be legal since its circumvents the definition of gambling due to the fact that is an exchange like in the game of skee ball. Remember Pachinko parlors are a legal form of gambling in Japan, Taiwan, and other countries that have strict regulations of gambling and setting up of casinos.  Since the US has regulated gambling the Asian community does not see the need or have the interest for Pachinko.  Go to any casino in Las Vegas or Indian casino in California you will see the large amount of Asians gambling.  --Neoking (talk) 21:30, 10 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Another point is that skeeball can skirt some US jurisdictions (remember - this is handled on a state-by-state basis) because it's technically a game of skill, like Fascination (kind of a miniature version of skeeball), while pachinko is much closer to random, even aside from tactics the house may use to skew the odds in their favor. This is actually a significant difference in a lot of legal approaches. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 01:32, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

(outdent) All that said, it's a moot point anyway: Pachinko is NOT popular in the US, especially not as a notable gambling culture segment or even big among hobbyists, so it wouldn't be an encyclopedic topic. If reliable sources report a sudden surge in the game's popularity in the US (or England, or Russia or Botswana or whatever) then there might be something to add to the article. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 05:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Mixing up pachinko and pachislots
This page is mixing up pachinko and pachislots (slot machines), slot machines in Japan have probability settings but modern pachinko machines do not. The thing that determines whether a machine has a house edge or not is the position and bend of the pins and the tilt of the machine, the software always run the same on every machine of the same model. Parlors use computers to keep track of average payouts and adjust pins accordingly, making some machines pay out more than others. The only legit way to win at pachinko is to calculate how many spins you need per 1000 yen to turn a profit (this number is called the "border," its usually around 15-25 spins depending on the machine model and the yen to ball exchange rate of the parlor). Once you find a machine that consistently shoots over the border you have a statistical advantage over the house, so you should play it for as long as you can and you WILL turn a profit over 50% of the time. However finding such machines isn't simple because there's no easy way to immediately determine how many spins you get per 1000 yen without playing a machine for a while and counting spins, or watching someone else play for a while. But there are still enough retards who will keep playing on machines with lousy pin layouts to allow the house to turn a large profit. There are a fair number of people who believe that pachinko machines have settings and are controlled by so called "horukon," but these people are chumps. There are no "waves" in pachinko, only cold hard statistics. The logistics of secretly altering hundreds of machines to have remotely controllable statistics without anyone finding out would be ridiculously complicated, plus parlors can already easily turn a profit by simply positioning pins so that most of the machines shoot below the border.

tl;dr, settings on pachinko machines are a myth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.156.108.243 (talk) 07:53, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Cheating with balls?
OK, so it seems that pachinko winnings are measured in balls, and the balls can be exchanged (perhaps indirectly) for cash. But the balls appear to be simple ball-bearings, available relatively cheaply from industrial suppliers. So what's to stop people from taking a few pocketfuls of ball-bearings into one of these "parlours", and either getting some free play (obviously they'd have to buy some balls from the house to allay suspicion) or simply handing them over as if they'd been won? 93.97.184.230 (talk) 22:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Pachinko balls are marked with the name of the parlor. The ones I have this appears to be molded into the ball (or at least embossed) and then the lines are filled with color, like an etching. The prizes probably aren't worth enough to make that scam worthwhile, anyway. --Elijah (talk) 17:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL with the steel prices rising nowadays especially stainless, I think its worth more taking the Pachinko balls back home and sell it as scrap metal or resale it to a bearing shop! From what I have learned in talking to the older peoples they have said it was easier to cheat by taping lead strips to the Pachinko ball baskets/buckets in order to increase the weight of the winnings (That is if they weight with the basket/bucket together with the balls).  Lead is cheaper than finished & polished steel bearings, but good question tough nonetheless.  Neoking (talk) 21:06, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Not the place for Q and A, though; try a pachinko-related webboard. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 05:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Popularity of pachinko
I just edited a passage that referred to the upswing in the popularity of pachinko since the beginning of the 21st century. In actual fact, figures released by the Japanese National Police Agency in April 2010 show that there were 12,652 pachinko parlors in Japan as of December 31, 2009, which is 2.2% fewer than in 2008 - indicated a long-term decline in the number of parlors. --tripbeetle (talk) 11:17, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Yakuza
If you read the source for the comment that says that the shops to trade in prizes for cash "may be run by organized crime (yakuza)", This comment is in fact incorrect. The source states that "[the police] have largely exiled yakuza from the prize-exchange business and stopped most of the extortion by gangsters of parlor owners." Also, the police "have effectively barred yakuza" from gambling establishments. I feel that the comment about yakuza running the prize to money shops should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.151.212.20 (talk) 06:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Done, and improved the material elsewhere in this regard. You were certainly right that the cited source effectively contradicted the article here. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 04:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)