Talk:Pacific Bay Christian School

RE: Advertisement Label
Advertisement? I'd have to disagree. I think that the article is rather informative, yet simplistic. I'd consider it an advertisement if the article was comparing academic or graduation standards with other schools, or was trying to appear superior in some other way; or if they included contact information to send a child to the school or to donate to the school.

The only part I would consider remotely "advertising" related is "Enrollment and Graduates". However, this information is fairly important in defining what the school is.

In addition, you can visit almost any other high school represented on Wikipedia and see that their articles are much more of an advertisement than this article. I'm going to delete the advertisement tag until some discussion is brought in regarding that label. --69.181.172.86 17:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Advertisement Discussion
''Please include reasoning for labeling as an advertisement. Without sufficient reasoning, the article should not be modified to be labeled as an advertisement.''

Nondiscrimination policy and namesake
OK Richard, I've dumbed down the policy section - your point is well taken, but I believe some mention of the policy is important. On Alma, I looked around and found only two other schools in the US that are currently named after prominent Klansmen/women. They both have mentions of this connection on their wiki pages. In the academic literature that has been published on Alma in the last 2 decades, she was more notable for her Klan promotional activities than the church founding. I acknowledge the reference is incendiary. To me, that makes it all the more notable and important for the article.

Klan
The article on the William J. Clinton Presidential Center and Park doesn't start off "...was created by Bill Clinton, who had sex in the Oval Office with Monica Lewinsky and stuck a cigar inside her ...", even though that fact is verifiable and notable. When you do it, it is a coatrack. You are trying to push a point of view in one article with information that is true from another article. It is something you would see on Fox news, and doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Unless the college teaches Klan philosophy, it doesn't belong here. The information is already in the article on Alma White and people can click on it to read about her. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 18:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Richard - I have great respect for your efforts on Wikipedia and I have enjoyed our collaberation on several articles. But I sense some significant frustration here that may be clouding your arguements.  I find that the ML story of Bill Clinton is not even close to the Alma/Klan comparison, a women who spent a decade of her life promoting the Klan, and a second and half of a third decade promoting ideas the Klan would be proud of.  What is Bill Clinton primarily known for?  Being President.  What is Alma primarily known for?  Well, if you review the academic literature about her, some of which I have sited, she is most known for her efforts to promote the Klan.  Additionally, I encourage you to read the news stories and wiki page of the Jacksonville FL school named after the first Klan Wizzard. Nathan Bedford Forrest High School, Named After Klan Leader, Retains its Name.  BTW - I find the Fox News reference simply bombastic and frankly a bit offensive.  I look forward to a more authentic discussion. Buz lightning (talk) 23:54, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, yeah...the church's website doesn't even mention White . Though this is certainly important information for Alma White's page, it seems to be more than a bit of a coatrack for an unrelated issue.  Even the part I put in about the church repudiating the connection is dubious - this page should be about the school, unless there is significant evidence that the school was involved with the Klan, this much detail about the church is inappropriate.  Certainly if sources can be found which show that the attendees and founders were sheet-wearing racists that's important.  But I agree that it's a lot of interesting detail about a church which doesn't really apply to the school.  There might be a case made for including more of the constitution information on the page, but I'd rather see a source that indicates this is actually part of the church's constitution.  Did White's actions significantly impact the school?  Did it lead to segregation activism by the students?  Does it exclude non-white students?  If so, then certainly put this information in.  But otherwise it definitely reads as undue weight on a tangential issue that shows no evidence of impacting the school, making it certainly a coatrack.  WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/complex 19:49, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"Buz" - Just because the word "Alma" is in the name of the school does not mean that the school stands by Alma White's ideas and actions. The school promotes diversity and students are taught to love ALL people. Please save your biased editing for your blog where you can be as biased as you want. It's great that you have done research and care so much about Alma White, but you should put all that research and care into updating HER page. The school has no connection to her, and should not be slandered by your writing. Graffxguy (talk) 17:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

"Graffxguy" - The word slander means an assertion that is both negative and untrue. To call my writings slander is itself slander. My writings are all true and well documented. We all (including you - I've noticed) bring biases to the table when we write. I actually do endeavor (probably to your surprise) to write on Wiki with a neutral journalistic perspective. I'm learning and growing in how to do this and actually wish to improve. That said, I have never suggested that because of the school's name that it stands by her principles. For you to infer otherwise is itself slanderous. You assert that "the school has no connection to her." I respectfully disagree that the connection is ZERO. But I believe the appropriate question (and you may actually agree with this) is "How relevant is Alma White to AHCA and AHCHS?" She currently gets half a sentence and a prepositional phrase - without the three inflammatory words. I kinda think that's very reasonable for the institution that bares her name and was initially funded by money that came from profits from the books she wrote and the periodicals she edited - including the sordid ones raised by the three inflammatory words. I want to acknowledge that you could have gone much further with your edits and I appreciate your restraint. Before I started working on this article, it was a cheesy advertisement for the school. I think it now has some meat to it - thanks also to your efforts. I also think it could still improve and become more robust. I believe the school has a rich present and past, worthy of a robust article. I look forward to collaborating with you to producing an article toward that end. Buz lightning (talk) 02:54, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Bishop Alma White's ideology and non-Catholic distinction
Two months ago I added a request for a citation for this assertion: “however the school's administration does not endorse Alma White's ideas or actions [citation needed].”  No citation has been forthcoming and in fact I have begun to discover documented evidence that contradicts this assertion. In the 35 books and 10 journals that Alma White wrote or edited, no political theme rings louder than Bishop White’s fear and hatred of the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholic individuals. This is not my original research as it is the consensus as published by at least six academic scholars, most in peer reviewed journals (Blee, Stanley, Kandt, Neal, Green, Lindley, etc.). I have not found any scholar that has published a peer reviewed dispute to this consensus.

In 1943, Bishop Arthur Kent White, Alma’s son and the second leader of the Pillar of Fire Church, published forwards to two of Alma’s political books affirming his and the Church’s position that he and therefore the Pillar of Fire Church agreed with his mother’s position regarding Catholics and the Catholic Church.

"Every truth-loving citizen should take the time and trouble to learn the facts and pledge himself to be an un-swerving, uncompromising, untiring, 100-per cent Protestant, and a faithful ‘Guardian of Liberty.’" Guardian of Liberty is a euphuism for Klansman and often substituted interchangeably in the Pillar of Fire literature which was supportive of the Klan and the Klan’s ideology. Bishop Arthur Kent White led the Pillar of Fire Church until 1981.

Why do I believe that the Pillar of Fire Church’s well-documented historical vehement and vicious promotion of anti-Catholic bigotry is relevant to Alma Heights Christian Academy today and worthy of a watered-down half sentence in a wiki article? I see evidence of the tailings of this ideology today in three places in the school’s current web site.

1) The school added the word Christian to the name of the school to distinguish it from Catholic schools in the area. This declaration is currently on the schools website (Jan, 2010)

2) The school’s non-discrimination policy states they reserve the right to discriminate against, they use the word screen, applicants based on religious preference.

3) The school requires applicant students and their parents to sign a declaration that they agree with the school’s evangelical Protestant beliefs.

The half sentence I added in the historical section of the article is: “Consistent with the Pillar of Fire Church’s well-documented promotion of anti-Catholic rhetoric,”  I’m open to discuss this as I understand those currently associated with the school may find my assertion quite challenging.

Buz lightning (talk) 20:29, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

Pacific Bay School is an ecumenical Christian school
The first sentence of the wikipedia page is "Pacific Bay Christian School, formerly Alma Heights Christian Academy, is a private Christian elementary, middle and high school in Pacifica, California, United States. It was founded by Pillar of Fire International as a segregation academy."

This statement is incorrect and misinterpreted. The school that was previously on the Linda Mar campus, named Alma Heights, was discontinued in 2018 and a newly incorporated and independent school on the same campus is called Pacific Bay Christian School. Pacific Bay Christian School is an ecumenical Christian School and was founded in 2018 and the first graduating class was in May 2019 as explained on the school website.

Proposed change: Pacific Bay Christian School is a private Christian middle and high school in Pacifica, California, United States. It is an ecumenical Christian school.

The history section also needs to be changed as it mostly pertains to Alma Heights. Pacific Bay Christian School is not affiliated with Pillar of Fire. A456765 (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
 * It is important to provide a reliable, secondary source. Sources already in the article describe it as Alma Heights Christian Academy, which hired a new principal in 2017, then in 2018 the school was renamed Pacific Bay Christian School. Same principal for both schools, still the principal today according to the website, same board members, same buildings, etc....so the Alma Heights story figures prominently in the story of the existence of Pacific Bay. There's a lot that could be done on updating the article to talk more about what Pacific Bay is today, but we really, really need some reliable, secondary sources. I did some searching and really didn't turn up anything worthwhile. Jacona (talk) 00:46, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that reliable, secondary sources are crucial. But the opening paragraph isn't an accurate depiction of who the school is now. I think the history section can stay and have parts added to it, but the opening paragraph should change to reflect who the school is now.
 * Proposed change: Pacific Bay Christian School is a private Christian middle and high school in Pacifica, California, United States. It is an ecumenical Christian school that welcomes people from all denominations of Christianity. https://www.pacbay.org/documents/statement-on-ecumenicalism/ A456765 (talk) 16:19, 22 March 2022 (UTC)


 * an encyclopedia article is not just about “who we are now”, but the totality of the subject. Jacona (talk) 19:33, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Jacona, I agree, it is about the totality of the subject which is why the opening summary paragraph could be updated. Don't you agree?
 * Would you be open to changing the opening paragraph to "Pacific Bay Christian School is a private Christian middle school and high school in Pacifica, California, United States. It is an ecumenical Christian school that welcomes people from all denominations of Christianity" as it is a better summary of the school? https://www.pacbay.org/documents/statement-on-ecumenicalism/ A456765 (talk) 23:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * What secondary reliable source says so? And why would you ignore the circumstances of the school's existence in the lede? Without a satisfactory answer to these questions, no. Jacona (talk) 23:41, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
 * What Pacific Bay Christian School did to separate from Alma Heights was far more than just a name change, it legally separated from Pillar of Fire. In the same secondary reliable article that has been referenced, it states "Pillar Ministries agreed to let the school become a legally separate institution." https://andscape.com/features/some-christian-schools-are-finally-grappling-with-their-racist-past-and-segregated-present/
 * Therefore, it is defaming Pacific Bay Christian School to say it was founded by Pillar of Fire International as a segregation academy. A456765 (talk) 18:05, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Jacona - I saw you undid my revision. Why did you do this? Did you not see my comment above on this talk page? I did provide a reliable secondary source. It is the same source that has been used multiple times in the article.
 * What Pacific Bay Christian School did to separate from Alma Heights was far more than just a name change, it legally separated from Pillar of Fire. In the same secondary reliable article that has been referenced, it states "Pillar Ministries agreed to let the school become a legally separate institution." https://andscape.com/features/some-christian-schools-are-finally-grappling-with-their-racist-past-and-segregated-present/
 * Therefore, it is defaming Pacific Bay Christian School to say it was founded by Pillar of Fire International as a segregation academy.
 * A456765 (talk) 20:04, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Jacona - your practice of undoing revisions that provide more accurate and complete information is starting to look like vandalism. You are ignoring parts of the https://andscape.com/features/some-christian-schools-are-finally-grappling-with-their-racist-past-and-segregated-present/ article and then allowing other parts of the article to be used. The article clearly says "Pillar Ministries agreed to let the school become a legally separate institution." This legally makes Pacific Bay Christian School separate from Alma Heights. A456765 (talk) 20:29, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
 * The reason for the reversion is in the edit caption. While some of the changes are sourced in "The Hechinger Report", those were attributed to the NCES, which does not delve in topics like these. In addition, numerous other unsourced changes were made. The lede was rewritten in a manner that obscured the reason the school came into existence. Altogether, these changes were problematic so I reverted rather than attempting to rewrite it.
 * Defamation is a legal term. I will not address that.
 * Please do not make personal attacks.Jacona (talk) 20:39, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Jacona - Firstly, I did not make a personal attack. That was never my intention. My intention was to show that some information from the article is being used while other parts of the same article are not being used. Would you be willing to help rewrite it then if you are unsatisfied with how I wrote it? I am truly trying my best to make this article as complete and true as possible. A456765 (talk) 20:50, 28 March 2022 (UTC)