Talk:Pack station

Issues with article
This article has a number of problems, primarily the lack of references. There are also assertions such as that pack mules can carry 300 lbs. I've participated in pack trips and California pack stations limit the cargo to 150 lbs per mule. The article says that pack stations are usually located in wilderness areas. This is incorrect - facilities such as pack stations are not allowed in wilderness areas, but typically they will be located just outside the boundary of a wilderness area. Also, many national forests in the west have government pack stations that are used for trail maintenance and fire fighting as opposed to recreation. I've been unable to find any information about the term "end of the road camp" as a synonym for pack station. I am going to begin the process of improving the article. Cullen328 (talk) 23:48, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The original creator (not me) is an Australian. The information is accurate for Australia.  What is needed is not a rewrite, but rather an explanation of how things work in different nations.   Montanabw (talk) 03:28, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Would you agree to a subsection called "Pack stations in the United States", and perhaps other editors could add "Pack stations in Australia" or "Pack stations in Canada" or wherever? Is it really accurate that Australian pack stations routinely load their mules with 300 lbs of freight?  As for the explanation "Toss potentially commercial links", that seems a bit judgmental.  I specifically did not add links to any commercial pack station websites.  Instead, I included a link to a trade association of a number of pack stations, and also a not for profit website that recounts the history of that part of California and includes a list of pack stations.  I think the article would be better if it had similar links for Australia, Canada and any other country that has pack stations.  External links, it seems to me, help people delve more deeply into a subject.  By the way, you kept the reference book I added including the page reference to the research that Norman Livermore did on pack stations, but removed mention of Mr. Livermore, a very notable and accomplished man in many fields, not just pack stations.  Perhaps we can work together to improve the article.  15:31, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree the article needs improvements, just not replacing one regional bias with another. I suspect that some of the info is also from assorted "drive bys" (passing anon IPs) and I'm not vouching for its total accuracy as much as I am just wanting to give things a chance to be verified and properly sourced rather than to be tossed wholesale.   What I'm actually thinking here is that we have several articles that dovetail a bit and need to be sorted out and cross-linked, specifically this article, packhorse, Guest ranch, and probably mule train. Not sure if we have an article on outfitting but if not, we probably should.  ((Hey!  We do!  outfitter!  ) It will probably work to bring in User:Cgoodwin, who is our Aussie guru and who can toss what's not accurate for Au.  I kept the book because it sources actual article content, but links to "trade associations" is definitely just linking to commercial promotional sites unless you are linking to a specific page with info that can't go into an article due to copyright issues or something.  See WP:V and related articles, there's a WP policy on External links, which generally is to minimize them. At WPEQ we have tended to limit to things like internal web site pages with specific, more detailed info (like illustrated instructions on how to load a pack mule, perhaps...), NATIONAL organizations, video and photo clips that can't be uploaded to Commons, that sort of thing .  As for Livermore, there are places for including someone's name if they have some particularly notable contribution, but an encyclopedic tone usually minimizes the name-dropping, letting the authorship of a reference source speak for itself. If he mets the notability criteria for a wikipedia article about him, that's another thing that can be done, though, and might be fun.   Montanabw (talk) 18:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * As for the details, I would agree that 300 lbs is about the maximum weight-carrying capacity for a horse or mule, so not to be routinely promoted.  I believe Yellowstone Park dude ride concessions publicize a 250 lb weight limit for people, which, once you add a western saddle, is getting pretty close, though. My sympathies to the horses.   Montanabw (talk) 18:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not sure who the Australian editor is who you mentioned previously as the "original creator". I see no significant Australian input into the article.  The original IP editor appears to be the same as PackerGreg who continued minor revisions for several days after the article was born.  He works (or worked) for Adams Pack Station in California's San Gabriel Mountains.  Much of the language in the article, including much of what I tried to change, is lifted directly from www.adamspackstation.com, and is therefore a copyright violation.  I believe that there is a difference between inserting external links directly to commercial sites (such as the one for Adams Pack Station) and  adding links to trade associations for or directories of a certain type of business. It seems that PackerGreg has a conflict of interest.  I don't have a conflict as I have no connection to the pack station business other than a love for the history of the High Sierra, and the fact that I participated in two pack trips over 30 years ago and have an interest in mule packing.  As for writing an article on Norman Livermore, I have already done so.  Check it out. I don't see how it is name dropping to mention the work of an acknowledged expert who got an MBA from Stanford University by writing a thesis about California's pack station industry.  I would submit that no one knew more about this industry than Norman Livermore.  As for "regional bias", there are approximately 25 - 30 pack stations still operating in California, due to that state's unique high mountain topography and history.  I am unaware of any other concentration of such businesses in the industrialized "first world", but would be happy to learn about them and include them in the article if they exist. Your thoughts?  Cullen328 (talk) 00:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:External links says that "A well-chosen link to a directory of websites or organizations" is worthy of consideration. I would submit that the two links I posted the other day meet that criteria, since these two lists comprise the majority of pack station operations in California, and therefore do not favor any specific business venture, and accordingly should not be considered spamming or advertising. Cullen328 (talk) 00:45, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Louise Jackson writes in her book The Mule Men: A History of Stock Packing in the Sierra Nevada, on page 24, "Packers tried to keep the total load under 150 pounds for the average mule, and never over 175 pounds." Rainbow Pack Outfitters brochure says "125 - 150 lb. weight limit per pack animal depending on size of load".  Red's Meadow Pack Station brochure says "Mules carry 150 pound maximum".  Rock Creek Pack Station and Mt. Whitney Pack Trains brochure states "We pack 150 pounds per mule or less ...".  I know that commercial brochures aren't a reliable source for Wikipedia, but should reinforce Louise Jackson's statement, as these are three of the most prominent and successful pack stations in business today.  I attended Bishop Mule Days in May, and these are current 2010 brochures. Cullen328 (talk) 01:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * HI Cullen. Mea culpa on the Aussie thing.   I've got about 1500 articles on my watchlist, and anything that comes up about pack animals or cattle usually rings my "check with Cg" button because Cg has contributed a great deal to these articles, notably packhorse.  I did a knee jerk on that.  From what you have explained here, I think I do agree that we are talking about an inherently regional concept, but one that has been used with a different meaning elsewhere (such as where I live, where it is pretty much synonymous with outfitter).  The way the article was written makes it sound more generic that it is.   I now think this article would actually do best to be narrowed with a focus almost exclusively on California/the Sierras, identified as  such, and the more generic info moved over to outfitter with appropriate cleanup and more cross-linking.  Doing a very cursory Google search,   I  found that the term as you explain it indeed seems to be primarily used in California.  Elsewhere in the west (as I suspected from my own observations locally) it seems to be mostly used in  business names for outfitter supply businesses or by various outfitters that primarily cater to out of state guests (found one non-California exception, but still private camps named by an outfitter, here).  What you quote above looks like some good footnoting, so just popping it into the article works for me.  (Footnoting solves almost all other problems!) If you need help with the tags for refs, I can help with that.  The Livermore article is very interesting.  My point is just that if he is a significant expert, then you will be citing his books, and that with a possible "see also" link to his article probably is really all that's needed if he made some major research contributions, it can be noted with specfics.  And the trade groups, basically I suppose it's a question of how one reads WP:ELNO, I used to feel it was helpful to add a bunch of external links, now I feel that if the footnoting uses work of most of the experts and the wikilinking is good, it is only helpful to link to the one or two most relevant national organizations and stuff that can't go into the article itself for some reason.   So, long story short, I'll step back and give you a green light, but (as I always do anyway) will dive in to touch up citation, copyediting, wikilinks, etc...   Montanabw (talk) 18:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your gracious comments. I will make some additional changes, starting with removing the language that seems to be taken from a commercial website.  I don't have the time to work on it right now, but appreciate your willingness to consider my opinions on how the article can be improved. Cullen328 (talk) 15:08, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Feel free to plug away as you can. I also added the Wrangler article to WPEQ, it's a mess too, sigh...so many articles, so little time. Montanabw (talk) 21:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)