Talk:Paddy Barnes

Nationality?
Even the Beeb is calling him Irish. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 02:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Well if you can find a reference stating he renounced his British citizenship and took up Irish citizenship then by all means use it. Irish could just mean he comes from the island of Ireland, which is true, and doesn't necessarily refer to his nationality of citizenship. After all the same page talks about Welsh, which isn't a nationality of citizenship. Canterbury Tail   talk  14:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that Paddy's nationality is Irish as he has represented his country at the highest level of the sport (Olympics). He has also represented Northern Ireland at the Commonwealth games (he was born in the North) but NI is not a country and he has not represented the UK (which is a country) at international level. Bjmullan (talk) 13:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you'll find NI is classed as a country, it's all covered in the FAQ of talk:United Kingdom. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 09:17, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No as far as the Olympics or the UN are concerned, to mention a couple. Bjmullan (talk) 10:16, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * However, the Commonwealth Games Federation suggests otherwise. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 10:45, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The British Commonwealth and its silly ego-saving British games are a jingoistic irrelevancy to world sport. If the UN and the Olympics say it's not a 'country', then what impartial editor would take the word of something as politically partisan as the British Commonwealth? 79.97.154.238 (talk) 11:18, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you should get over yourselves and stick to the facts! Northern Ireland is a country. It isn't a sovereign country. That's the difference.

Dodgy judge decision in Turkey, 2012
Can anyone add something to the article about what happened in Turkey in 2012?

It seems the referees gave a dodgy scoring in Barne's fight (just like in Joe Ward's).

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0724/1224320708530.html

.Gronky (talk) 19:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

BELFAST is in the UNITED KINGDOM
Regardless of his self identification as Irish (not confirmed considering he represented Northern Ireland in the commonwealth games! Belfast is in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and previously was in the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland)! 86.177.26.176 (talk) 16:56, 10 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It's true that Belfast is in the UK, and it's true that Belfast is on the Island of Ireland. And it's true that he went to the Olympics for the Republic of Ireland. Gronky (talk) 12:58, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
 * We have no source for what he self-identifies with, it's just a Wiki convention that for Northern Irish people due to the Good Friday Agreement we state them as being from the country they represent. However that leaves an issue for this article: he represented the Republic of Ireland at the Olympics but represented Northern Ireland in the Commonwealth Games (obviously the RoI doesn't compete). So why not call him simply "Northern Irish" of just a boxer from Belfast, Northern Ireland. Mabuska (talk) 16:46, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Wait - isn't it a wikipedia convention that the term "Northern Irish" doesn't exist?! Even though it does, plainly. If you look at the categories, there are precious few, if any, that are similar to "English blah blah" or "German blah blah". Instead, for some odd reason, it's "blah blah from Northern Ireland"!


 * Agreed, he's represented both so clearly doesn't mind being associated with either. We should use where he's from. — Jon C.  ॐ  16:51, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistency
I note that in the lede, the man is stated to have represented Ireland, which points to the island of Ireland. Yet, in the boxout, he is stated to represent "Ireland" which is deceptive and points to the Republic of Ireland and has the flag of the Republic of Ireland beside it. This really smacks of instruction creep (see my earlier comment here re Northern Irish), in which "Northern Irish" things and people doesn't exist, and the Republic of Ireland also doesn't exist. Or when something represents all of Ireland, somehow that gets tied with one specific state's national flag.

That's pretty POV, from what I can see! --24.88.67.192 (talk) 05:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The flag is used by the Irish Olympic team, and the Irish amateur boxing association, which Barnes boxed for in these competitions, both organisations represent the whole island (the Bristish OC do represent NI aswell). Murry1975 (talk) 15:36, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Intelligent interpretation / common sense
The one source with regard to nationality given here is a comment Barnes made about being Irish. However, as most people are aware (though many reject or ignore), the idea of being Irish covers a couple of different aspects: nationality of a specific country (the Republic of Ireland) is only one. Ethnicity is the other. That's where the confusion lies (and, as can be seen in historical records from the Dail, this was entirely on purpose).

There are plenty of people in Northern Ireland who identify as Irish, but not as a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, they are Irish, but not Irish!

Confused yet?!

The upshot of this is that, just because Barnes declared himself proud of being Irish, doesn't mean he is automatically a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. The ambiguity in the word 'Irish' clouds the issue. The only thing we can really be sure of is that he doesn't mind representing (as he says himself) either jurisdiction (or both). Therefore we could possibly describe his nationality as being both British and Irish. He is, after all, pleased to be accepting an MBE and pleased to have represented Northern Ireland in a British capacity - sans the Republic (which removed itself from the Commonwealth).

The simple facts are, as someone else has stated, that he is British - he was born in the United Kingdom to parents who were born in the UK. The only way for him to not be, factually, British, is to have applied specifically to renounce British citizenship.

Also, in relation to the flag displayed in the boxout - it appears that the flag used in the Olympic qualifying stages in 2012 was the four provinces flag - not the tricolour of the Republic of Ireland. This can be seen in the photograph of the article used as a source for Barnes' 'nationality'.

I would suggest that the boxout be updated to include nationality of both jurisdictions: British (Union Jack) and Irish (Tricolour). --24.88.64.22 (talk) 20:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Looks like I've commented on this talk page before! Anyway, a couple of other observations to add in response to peoples' comments:

The Beeb doesn't really care too much. Particularly in sports. It refers to people from Northern Ireland as 'Ulstermen', 'Irishman', and even 'Northern Irish lad' etc etc, because the sports people are from there (Ulster, Ireland, Northern Ireland etc). It is a reference to their ethnicity or region - not a reference to their opinion of their nationality. Likewise, the Beeb will refer to Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen - even though they are also ethnicities and not nationalities.

Personal opinion about the British Commonwealth is irrelevant to the discussion and the facts.

Finally, the way this particular sport (and a couple of others) are organised, makes it difficult to stay within the Northern Irish or British realms. Competition is also often easier in an all-Ireland forum than a UK-wide forum, simply because of sheer numbers (a tenth of the population in the whole of Ireland, compared with the whole of the UK). But the organisation of the sports bodies do not necessarily reflect the individuals' wishes nor their desired or favoured nationalities.

--24.88.64.22 (talk) 21:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

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