Talk:Pain fitzJohn

owed or owned
re:
 * "Pain was one of Henry's "new men", who owned their positions and wealth to the king. "

Should it be "owed", or "owned"? The second case could work, since all land was owned by the king, but it's an awkward phrasing in that case. Or maybe it's a US/UK thing? Just checking. Green Cardamom (talk) 18:43, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


 * In this case, it's a typo for "owed", thanks for catching it! Ealdgyth - Talk 18:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Reading this article
Pain's paternal grandfather's influence isn't clear to a modern unskilled in understanding feudal English economics; this could be clarified. Chamberlainship as a substantive rather than body servant post needs half a phrase of explanation when discussing Map, for the non-initiate. The militarised nature of the relationship between the English Crown and Welsh needs to be made clearer, earlier, to set a context for the non-specialist. If there is a free map of the period, wherein the sites of Pain's successes and possessions can be indicated, particularly in the context of Normandy-England-Wales, that would undoubtedly enhance the article. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Milhist?
Ludlow Castle, and the man who controlled it, had military significance. Any objections to tagging this for Milhist? - Dank (push to talk) 18:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope. I generally leave projects and categories to the experts. I tag with one or two projects and never worry about what gets added later .. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:00, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Arms
The following link gives a coat of arms for Pain fitzJohn: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=75731503 If this is correct a freely usable version might be uploaded for illustrative purposes. Any ideas whether it's correct? Greenshed (talk) 07:27, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd be surprised if it was: it is awfully early for English heraldry. I think it is much more likely to be a coat of arms used by another, much later individual with the surname Fitzjohn. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:58, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * If there was a record of a coat of arms for Pain, it would be listed in his ODNB biography. Findagrave is NOT a reliable source. Frankly, that coat of arms looks like one of the ones produced by the various "family coat of arms" companies. IN fact - see here, where it is given as connected to a 15th century Fitzjohn from Essex. Or here is the exact same image for sale without any connection to this article's subject. Also interesting is the fact that the information on Pain in the Findagrave entry is probably lifted from this wikipedia article - note the similarity of "Payn was rewarded with marriage to Sybil Talbot in 1115, and among the lands he gained control of through his wife was Ludlow Castle, which he augmented with further land acquisitions."(findagrave) with "In 1115, he was rewarded with marriage to an heiress, thereby gaining control of the town of Ludlow and its castle, which he augmented with further acquisitions." (wikipedia). Or "After the death of King Henry in 1135, Payn supported Henry's nephew, King Stephen, and was with the new king throughout 1136." (findagrave) and "After King Henry's death in 1135, Pain supported Henry's nephew, King Stephen, and was with the new king throughout 1136." (wikipedia). The last reason to not trust this coat of arms is that, as Hchc2009 mentioned, it's about 60 years too early for actual heraldry. Coats of arms for noblemen aren't really securely attested before 1200, especially not in the fully developed form with crests and all the extras.
 * Before anyone starts thinking that wikipedia copied findagrave - note that the correspondences are even closer between the wikipedia article in Feb 2011 when it passed GA and the findagrave entry, which is dated to August 2011. The WP article clearly came first. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:22, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, heraldry is not my area of expertise although I was sure that findagrave.com was not a reliable source. Greenshed (talk) 04:29, 2 January 2017 (UTC)