Talk:Pal Dukagjini

Contradictions
From the book: Historia e Popullit Shqiptar (Vëllimi I), by the ''Academy of Sciences of Albania, coauthors: K. Prifti, Xh. Gjeçovi, M. Korkuti, G. Shpuza, S. Anamali, K. Biçoku, F. Duka, S. Islami, S. Naçi, F. Prendi, S. Pulaha, P. Xhufi'' (Tirana, 2002), publisher: Toena, ISBN 99927-1-622-3 (page 309-310)


 * In 1435, Tanushi i Madh (Tanush the Great) had four children, two sons and two daughters: Pal, Leka, Kale and a young 14-year old girl, whose name is not mentioned. His two sons, despite being his legal children, are defined by Gjon Muzaka as “untrue” Dukagjini, because of the controversies and hostilities that erupted within the Dukagjinis. The youngest son, Leka, does not appear as an important political figure. He was born in 1420 and is mentioned in 1451 for the last time, as an opponent to Venice. It is not know if he left any offspring.
 * His brother, Pal (1411-1458), for whom Gjon Muzaka writes that has been educated besides Gjon Kastrioti, has been active in the political life. He has taken part in the League of Lezhë and united with Skanderbeg since the beginning. Pal has had four sons: Leka, Nicholas, Progon and Gjergj. Gjergj’s name appears only in Gjon Muzaka’s memories (Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi). Progon is mentioned in 1471 as dead. Leka became an important figure in the political life of Albania. In 1457 he repelled the Venetian governors from Dagnum and Sas, became a collaborator of Skanderbeg and continued the war against ottomans even in the ‘70s. After the conquest of Shkodra from the ottomans (1479), Leka and his brother, Nicholas, emigrated to Italy and returned in 1481 to free the lands and properties of Dukagjinis from the Ottoman conquerors. Leka had a great influence in the people of north Albania. The Albanian traditional rights are connected to his name.


 * (Original in Tanushi i Madh ka pasur në vitin 1435 katër fëmijë, dy djem dhe dy vajza: Palin, Lekën, Kalen dhe një vajzë të vogël 14-vjeçare, emrin e së cilës nuk e përmend. Dy djemtë e tij, edhe pse ishin fëmijë të ligjshëm, janë cilësuar nga Gjon Muzaka si Dukagjinë “jo të vërtetë”, për shkak të kundërshtive që lindën në gjirin e Dukagjinëve. Më i vogli i djemve, Leka, nuk del si figurë politike e rëndësishme. Ai ka lindur në vitin 1420 dhe për herë të fundit përmendet në vitin 1451 si kundërshtar i Venedikut. Nuk dihet nëse ka lënë pasardhës. Vëllai i tij, Pali (1411-1458), për të cilin Gjon Muzaka rrëfen se është edukuar pranë Gjon Kastriotit, ka qenë aktiv në jetën politike. Ai ka marrë pjesë në kuvendin e Lezhës dhe që në fillim është bashkuar me Skënderbeun. Pali ka pasur katër djem: Lekën, Nikollën, Progonin dhe Gjergjin. Emri i Gjergjit del vetëm në "Përkujtesën" e Gjon Muzakës (Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi). Progoni përmendet në vitin 1471 si i vdekur. Leka u bë personazh i rëndësishëm i jetës politike të Shqipërisë. Në vitin 1457 ai i dëboi qeveritarët venecianë nga Deja e nga Shasi, u bë bashkëpunëtor i Skënderbeut dhe vijoi luftën kundër osmanëve edhe në vitet 70. Pas pushtimit të Shkodrës nga osmanët (1479), Leka dhe vëllai i tij, Nikolla, mërguan në Itali dhe u rikthyen në vitin 1481 për të çliruar zotërimet e Dukagjinëve nga pushtuesit osmanë. Leka ka pasur ndikim të madh te banorët e Shqipërisë së Epërme. E drejta dokesore shqiptare lidhet me emrin e tij.) Empathictrust (talk) 23:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Whereas in there is:


 * The most important representatives of Dukagjini family in the 15th century were the brothers Nicholas and Pal Dukagjini and the son of the last, Lekë Dukagjini. In 1431 Nicholas Dukagjini led the anti-Ottoman rebellion and succeeded in freeing Dagnum for a short time. Both of the brothers took part in the League of Lezhë in 1444 and as members of the League, in the war led by Skanderbeg against Venice in 1447-1448. The territorial claims of Dukagjinis were the cause of several conflicts with other lords, such as in 1445 for Dagnum with Lekë Zaharia, who was killed on the same occasion. The further strengthen of Skanderbeg’s central power, alienated the Dukagjinis with him and at times brought them together with Venice (in 1456) and at times with the Ottomans (in 1457).


 * (Original in Përfaqësuesit kryesorë të Dukagjinëve në shek. XV ishin vëllezërit Nikollë e Pal Dukagjini dhe i biri i këtij të fundit, Lekë Dukagjini. Nikollë Dukagjini udhëhoqi në vitin 1431 kryengritjen antiosmane, që arriti të çlirojë për një kohë Dejën. Të dy vëllezërit morën pjesë në Kuvendin e Lezhës më 1444 dhe si anëtarë të Lidhjes, në luftën e udhëhequr nga Skënderbeu kundër Venedikut 1447-48. Pretendimet territoriale të Dukagjinëve u bënë shkak konfliktesh me sundimtarët e tjerë, si më 1445 për Dejën me Lekë Zaharinë, i cili me këtë rast u vra. Përforcimi i pushtetit qendror të Skënderbeut i largoi Dukagjinët nga ai dhe i afroi ata herë me Venedikun (më 1456) e herë me osmanët (më 1457).)

Other sources give Pal’s participation in the League of Lezhë: by Maximilian Lambertz

Here: Pal appears in Kosovo fighting the Ottomans, as well as being the father of Lekë, something this source  mentions, too. Here: is mentioned Pal’s death of apoplexy.

Robert Elsie describes Dukagjinis’ lineage here: but doesn’t mention any brothers Nicholas and Pal Dukagjini (as the Albanian Encyclopedic Dictionary does), but instead Pal, who had sons Lekë and Nicholas, as well as George and Progon (the same as “Historia e Popullit Shqiptar” description above).

According to the information on Dukagjini from Historia e Popullit Shqiptar (Vëllimi I) (part of which was the first paragraph) I have prepared a sketch of a genealogical tree of these Dukagjini family members. I'll try to find an already done template here in Wikipedia and fill it then. Please, try to figure out a solution for these figure and regarding these new sources I presented. Empathictrust (talk) 23:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The lineage you mention is not Elsie's but of Gjon Muzaka and it gives lineage of Pal who was a father of Leke who is famous mostly because of the kanun. He and "our" Pal Dukagjini (who was also father of Leke who had nothing to do with kanun) are two different persons. It is very hard to prepare genealogical tree of certain medieval Albanian noble families. Dukagjini family is very complex. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the swift reply Antidiskriminator. I mentioned the lineage from Elsie as a secondary source, who refers to the primary source of Gjon Muzaka's Breve memoria de li discendenti de nostra casa Musachi, it's ok. Relating to the conclusion they're 2 different individuals, I made this and this  edits, which were really misleading. Anyway it still seems quite improbable that there were two Lekë Dukagjinis, both important political figures and the one who's the son of this Pal Dukagjini "in 1457 he repelled the Venetian governors from Dagnum and Sas, became a collaborator of Skanderbeg and continued the war against ottomans even in the ‘70s". Both had important deeds during this time, both collaborators of Skanderbeg and we don't find any source mentioning this disambiguation. Nevertheless, it appears that Nicholas Dukagjini was the son of this Pal Dukagjini, since in Nicholas article is well-cited that he fled to Italy and returned in 1481 to fight the Ottomans (something that this Pal Dukagjini's son did), and the parentage is mentioned in two reliable secondary sources:
 * Robert Elsie's Early Albania: A Reader of Historical Texts, 11th-17th Centuries
 * Historia e Popullit Shqiptar (Vëllimi I) (Tirana, 2002): I cited one paragraph at the beginning of the section.
 * Catch you up after a couple of hours. Empathictrust (talk) 07:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments which are highly appreciated. In case of the lineage you mentioned Elsie is not "a secondary source who refers to Muzaka". Elsie published integral (translated) text of Muzaka's chronicle. I emphasized this because Muzaka's work is considered nonreliable without appropriate support and interpretation by modern scholarship, so it should be used with great care. Thanks for your edits and unwikifying some wrong and misleading wiki links. There were more than two Lekë Dukagjinis and Pal Dukagjinis, even in the same historical period. Dukagjini family was very large and not very united. Some of its members were even fighting each other on the opposing sides. Some of them were vassals or pronoiers of Venice while some of them were Ottoman vassals. None of them continiously supported Skanderbeg or anybody else. They switched sides frequently. Sometimes, when Skanderbeg was in war with Venice, the pro-Venetian branch of Dukagjini family did not support him, but pro-Ottoman did and vice versa.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:22, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The different Pal's can be seen at Pal Dukagjini (disambiguation).--Z oupan 18:57, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Zoupan for your effort. I am not sure if other Pals are notable enough to have their own articles.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry for my delayed comment Antidiskriminator and thank you for the simplification of the history concerning Dukagjini family and their alliances, even though I'm aware of their historical position and role in the late medieval history of Albania and southwestern Balkans. I am familiar with WP:PSTS and I admit you're probably right: I hasted when ascribing Elsie's work on Muzaka's memories as a secondary source. Nevertheless it's not a simple translation and conclusions like this (at the beginning of page 80, as well as other small explanatory terms) i.e. Taransa Minore is nowadays Lesser Tirana, Canabi (Krraba), Fuorcha (Farka), are results of a professional scholar who has certain experience on this field. It doesn't seem that correct to ascribe it as a primary source, despite it's not quite a secondary source neither, that's what I mean. Anyway I mentioned this as well: Historia e Popullit Shqiptar (Vëllimi I) (Tirana, 2002), which is a voluminous modern edition of the Albanian history, edited by a considerably long list of coauthors and contemporary scholars, who reveal the same fact on Pal Dukagjini (1411-1458) as son of Tanushi i Madh (don't know if we're to put him here as Tanush the Great?). Based on WP:AGF, I suppose other sources momentarily unavailable to us reveal the same facts. This Pal was father of Leka, Nicholas, Progon and Gjergj. This Nicholas is different from Nicholas Dukagjin you have written here, who was son of Gjergj Dukagjini I, and has died between 1452-1454, leaving two heirs: Draga and Gjergj Dukagjini II (they all were of another branch of Dukagjini, different from Pal (1411-1458))."Our" Pal's son, Nicholas, didn't take part at the League of Lezhë, but instead he fled to Italy in 1479 with his brother Lekë and returned to Albania in 1481. It took me some time to clarify this point of other 2 Nicholas intermingling in the same period of time and after reading through the history volume I mentioned, found the differences between them.


 * Now we have to reflect this in the article and move on to structure the article in Wikipedia style, since it still lacks that simple, yet distinct shape of a biography, no matter how short it is. I suggest reformulating the sentences a bit as to integrate the facts in an easier and more interesting to read prose. Chronology and citations are fine. As for the hook I'll suggest another one as soon as I've finished with adding the info on Pal's sons. I think your current ALT1 related to Pope's criticism appears not that interesting or unusual to a general, neutral reader, unfamiliar with this part of history. That's my advise anyways, compromise above all! Regards Empathictrust (talk) 22:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem that correct to ascribe it as a primary source - When I said that "Elsie is not a secondary source" I specifically referred to the Muzaka's lineage of Dukagjini ("In case of the lineage you mentioned"), not the whole Elsie's work.
 * Thank you for your research. Any improvement of the article is, of course, welcome.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:17, 27 April 2012 (UTC)