Talk:Palace of Westminster/Archive 1

Westminster Hall on first floor?
This very good article contains the following:


 * The building includes four floors; the ground floor includes offices, dining rooms, and bars. The first floor houses the principal rooms of the Palace, including the Chambers, Westminster Hall, the lobbies, and the libraries.

Clearly from the first sentence's reference to a ground floor, we are using 'first floor' here in the UK rather than US sense. In which case the statement that Westminster Hall is on the first floor confuses me. My recollection is than on entry via the public entrance, Westminster Hall is more or less immediately to the left and below, with a significant flight of stairs down to the halls floor level. I cannot square that with it being on the first floor. Am I mis-remembering, or is the article wrong?. -- Chris j wood 20:47, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * It's older than the rest and has a different floor level. I should think it is between the two, but I haven't measured. The main access is from the first floor, so it functions more as part of that than as part of the other. CalJW 05:23, 12 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Westminster Hall is usually accessed by walking down one flight from the first floor lobby leading to St Stephens. It can also be accessed (without stairs) from ground level at New Palace Yard or Star Chamber Court. MikeHobday 16:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

influence of layout of Commons Chamber on British democracy
I have heard it said that the layout of the Commons Chamber which is a) small and b) "confrontational" with two opposing rows has directly influenced the working of British democracy and the two party system. Shouldn't this be covered here? I don't see it under House of Commons either. Mozzerati 21:20, 2005 Apr 16 (UTC)

gothic-neogothic?
Shouldn't it say that the building is of neogothic architecture instead of gothic, in the first paragraph?

I have substituted gothic revival for gothic architecture in conformity with an existing wikipedia article. In my own language it would be called "neogothic". However, neogothic is defined in the Wikipedia as an American branch of the gothic revival. I do not think this is quite O.K., but in a an encyclopedia it is important to use the terminology consistently. --Georgius 18:29, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

section headings
concise, well done. User:Xmnemonic —Preceding undated comment added 02:09, 26 June 2005 (UTC).

1 km != 1 1/2 miles
Since 1 August 2005, it has been illegal to hold a protest within 1 and a half miles (1 km) of the Palace without the prior permission of the Metropolitan Police.
 * 1 km is not equal to 1 1/2 miles. I don't know what is stated by the law, but this can never be rightm - User:AngelovdS —Preceding undated comment added 19:51, 8 October 2005 (UTC).


 * The zone is 0.5 miles (roughly 1km) MRSC 18:56, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * One kilometre is 0.621371 miles - Adrian Pingstone 21:49, 8 October 2005 (UTC)


 * That is true. But how was the new law worded? In miles or km? MRSC 06:23, 9 October 2005 (UTC)


 * In miles - Kittybrewster 16:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Commons chamber - number of seats
Parliament (parliament.uk website) lists the number of seats available in the chamber as 427, not 437 as listed here. 

Furthermore, the BBC also use this number. 

So does Channel 4. 

I haven't found a 'respectable' source listing there as being 437 seats - I presume this came from a misprint or typing error somewhere, so am changing it to match the sources referenced.

Mauls 22:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Longstanding error
This sentence in the section on the layout of the Lords contains an error: "The benches on the right of the Woolsack form the Spiritual Side, and those to the right [again] form the Temporal Side." Which is on the left? Also, is that the right looking from the throne, or towards it? Honbicot 20:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Fixed. --StanZegel  (talk) 05:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Removal of terrorism plan claim
I've removed this, as added by User:Preschooler.at.heart, as it's a rather wild claim, one that I've not heard before, and which is not sourced at all:


 * In 2001, a terrorist attack was planned involving running a commercial airliner into the palace in coordination with the 9/11 terrorist attacks in New York City and Washington, DC, and also another failed plan involving Tower Bridge. the plan was aborted at the last minute when the would-be hijackers saw the damage in the United States, panicked, and fled.

Thoughts? James F. (talk) 14:37, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. Kittybrewster 16:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

sauce
Should this article link to HP Sauce? And if so, where? (There's no particularly light-hearted trivia section). fabiform 19:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Ownership
Does the Crown or the Government own the palace, or both? Rednaxela 22:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a Royal Palace so owned by the crown, well that is what i was told when i went there.--Jajon 22:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The government technically serves the Crown, so in theory all government property are possessions of the Crown. This does not mean that any of it is under the personal control of the Sovereign or that she may dispose of it as she wills. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Guy Fawkes, et al
This article currently states unequivocally that Guy Fawkes and his co-conspirators were dupes: "The plot was a successful conspiracy aiming to trick Roman Catholic insurgents into planning...an explosion in the Palace....The plot was however always a trap...." I think that this is rather more certain than the facts warrant. Even the Wikticle on the Gunpowder Plot is dubious about it, indicating that not a lot of support is given the trap theory, other than that Cecil may have known about the Plot for a few days before it was officially unmasked. I would change this, but i don't want to step in if there has been discussion about it previously, and this is a current consensus. Give it a couple of days and rework it? Lindsay H. 03:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I made a couple of changes, on the basis that no one else did or objected. Cheers, Lindsay 14:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Edward the Confessor
Edward the Confessor is here described as the penultimate Saxon king of England. I suggest that the word "penultimate" be removed, since this is not accurate if one includes among the Saxon kings Edgar Aetheling, who was proclaimed king of England by the Witan after the Battle of Hastings, though never crowned. Shulgi 13:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

But Edgar Aetheling is not generally accepted as one of the kings of England, so this is irrelevant.

Featured Picture at Commons not here
This is a featured pictured at Commons but is not on the page here, I was wondering what everyone thought about putting it in somewhere... Not sure where exactly. Maybe even in the infobox? Witty lama 07:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)




 * Its an example of Wikipedia not working anymore. This image was added to the article in Feb 2007, replacing my previous Featured Picture that had been there for a couple of years. Then a week later someone removed the new FP (for no very good reason that I can see) leaving a different night shot taken from the London Eye at the head of the article. Curiously, on the same day, this second image was deleted on the Commons, because it had been sourced from SXC with insufficient confirmation of free license. That left the article with no lead image, so a third editor moved another one up from the body. I noticed that the FP had disappeared from the article yesterday and let Diliff know - I only noticed because I thought I had found the same picture being used without credit (a copyright violation) on a different web site and I came here to verify whether they were the same.
 * So not only do we have a series of questionable decisions that no one discussed or challenged, but no one ever checks to see whether an article was in better shape in the past. It could be worse, many articles are loosing whole paragraphs and sections. Hence, the self healing of articles by good editors no longer works sufficiently well and Wikipedia is deteriorating. -- Solipsist 09:17, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * ...and with the article de-formatted to the fotostrip down one side, fewer illustrations can be accomodated, juxtaposed with relevant sections of text. --Wetman 23:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Lord Chancellor
The article still refers to the Lord Chancellor as living in the Palace and leading the procession to the Lords each day. The Lord Speaker now does this, although she does not live in the Palace. Not quite sure how to phrase this - grateful if someone else could correct it. 81.1.103.204 13:16, 29 April 2007 (UTC) sjb92 14:14, 29 April 2007 (BST)

Palace of Westminister security
Most of the security featured talks of the inside of the Palace and the outside with the concrete barriers and things. What about the water side? Is there no security there,as this would be a potential spot for any terrorism. Is there no security to the water edge? Thanks St91 11:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There's an exclusion zone, (info added). There may be all manner of clever detection devices and stopping boat devices but it's probably all top-secret! Paulbrock (talk) 11:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Are they in or are they out?
"The Commons do not enter the Chamber; instead, they watch the proceedings from the Bar of the House, just inside the Chamber." - I am virtually certain that sentence might be phrased better. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 21:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems to have been fixed... Paulbrock (talk) 01:43, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Abrupt ending of history section
The section on history seems to end at the year 1860! Surely there is a lot of more recent history which should be covered by the article, particularly the destruction by bombing in Word War Two? --ManInStone 11:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Security
The article mentions concrete blocks being used to protect from road carried bombs. However during my visit in August I could not see any obvuious concrete blocks but I did see black metal ovoid shapes (which may have contained concrete). Does the article need to be updated to reflect this?

On the river side I noticed yellow buoys in the water but no obvious indications of security measures. What protection is provided here?

Have there been cases of messages and pictures being projected onto the outside walls of the palace? I've seen photos of this but was not sure if these were faked. Would these consititute a security breach worth mentioning in the article? --ManInStone 11:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistent Number of Miles of Corridors
In the introduction it states - "well over three kilometres (two miles) of corridors". This is contradicted in the INTERIOR section further down ... "and 3 miles (5 km) of passageways" - which one is correct??? Lanzarotemaps (talk) 22:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed and referenced now. Paulbrock (talk) 10:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Recent protest
Does the article mention the recent Heathrow expansion protest when Plane Supid protesters scaled the Houses of Parliament? I'm suprised they weren't shot but then again it would only fund their cause. Although I agree another terminal is not neccesary —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.8.24.139 (talk) 21:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Rules and Traditions
As far as I can tell, this section has been plagiarized from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/81960.stm, which is citation number 16. The citation was modified last on 30 August 2005, while the section was added 4 March 2008, and the texts are nearly identical. I apologize to the editor if someone else is copying from this article though. Belgarion89 (talk) 22:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Some parts have been sufficiently 'adapted' the rest needs a bit more tweaking! Paulbrock (talk) 10:18, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Good Article/Featured Article
Since its demotion in January, this article is no longer a Featured Article. I'm on a push to get it back up there, via Good Article promotion. As far as I can see, it meets points 4-6 of the Good article criteria, leaving:

1. Well-written - should have no spelling, grammar problems, comply with MOS. I think this is pretty much there, but not 100% sure

2. Accurate and verifiable - a few inline refs still missing, I think the sources at the bottom cover most things, but need a bit more digging through.

3. Broad in coverage - seems to be reasonable, following comments on this page, will try and get more info on the 1941 bombing, and terrorist prevention on the river side, but then that should be it?

Paulbrock (talk) 10:28, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm taking care of 1, and you have been doing an excellent job with 2. 3 seems to be just right, especially with the much-needed expansion of the bombing part.
 * After a few more tweaks, the article will be ripe for GA. As a matter of fact, it might even be suitable for a Featured Article re-nomination; the issues which brought about its being de-featured were Manual of Style breaches and a lack of citations. Apart from these, it is an excellent article (with a reservation about the way it ends; I am not fully satisfied there).
 * The good thing is that GA is an unofficial process, which means that minimal bureaucracy will be involved, making it a good step to take even if we are sure that it will pass FAC. Waltham, The Duke of 17:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, so as it stands I believe the article should pass GA. I think 2 and 3 are very well addressed now, and after another proof-read from the Duke, we can tick off 1 as well, and put it up as a GAC.  Assuming it passes, on to FA! (which I've never done before so look forward to getting stuck in) Paulbrock (talk) 02:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Text notes
I am not quite content with the fifth paragraph of the History section; it first says that the Royal Commission decided that the new building would be either Gothic or Elizabethan, then it says that a heated public debate about the style ensued, and then it finishes with "it was decided that neo-Classical design ... was to be avoided". This order does not make much sense; was the decision made separately from the Royal Commission? It sounds implausible, yet no clue is given that this is the course of action which led to the Commission making this decision. I must know the facts before changing the text. Waltham, The Duke of 04:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * My mistake; the debate was about the proposed styles. I suppose it refers to Gothic and Elizabethan... But the paragraph still lacks coherence; after the "debate" mention, it goes back to why neo-Classical design was dismissed, and it ends with "Gothic embodies conservative values" without really saying why the Elizabethan style was not chosen. Was there better contrast between Gothic and neo-Classical? It is (barely) implied, and could be supposed by the reader, but is definitely not said. Waltham, The Duke of 04:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think from various skimming of the sources, that the vast majority of the applications were Gothic rather than Elizabethan; will keep an eye out for a source! Paulbrock (talk) 21:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's reasonable to infer the heated debate occured before the Commission announced the acceptable styles...will check through the article history as it's probably been changed over time...should be something like:
 * "A Royal Commission was appointed to study the rebuilding of the Palace,and a heated public debate over proposed styles ensued. The Commission decided that it should be rebuilt on the same site, and that its style should be either Gothic or Elizabethan. It was decided that neo-Classical design, similar to that of the White House....was to be avoided due to its connotations of revolution and republicanism,whereas Gothic design embodied conservative values."

Paulbrock (talk) 22:00, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That sounds quite satisfactory... Yes, it is very good. If a source can support it, it will be water-tight, but even so it sounds very plausible. Apart from the implied reasoning of the preference for Gothic style due to its antithesis with neo-Classicism, one could also assume that the style of nearby Westminster Abbey might have influenced the final result... But this is original research; one can by no means be sure of that. (Unless, of course, one could locate a relevant source; it all comes down to that, after all...)
 * See previous version - that has a version where the Commission asked for Gothic or Classical, and then the heated public debate ensued.  Just need to check what the Comission asked for, to put everything in the right chronological order! Paulbrock (talk) 22:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I like very much what you've done with the paragraph, Paulbrock. It is now coherent and internally consistent, and provides a clear line of events, which continues into the next paragraph. I'd prefer it if it didn't have to change again; after all, what sense does it make, debating in favour of a style excluded from the competition?
 * The source is excellent, by the way; I read it top-to-bottom. Waltham, The Duke of 01:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Now, about my second concern: Security. I like the change in layout (the insertion of an Incidents sub-section), but it has introduced a small problem, namely the Strangers' Gallery. The Gallery is not mentioned at all in the section about the Commons' Chamber, and the restructuring of the Security section has made its first mention (in the third paragraph) rather out-of-place. I have made a small modification, but I do not know to what extent it will suffice.
 * I've tidied a little more, and linked to the separate Strangers Gallery article, I think that clarifies things OK.Paulbrock (talk) 23:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I had no idea that the article existed; it was absolutely stupid of me not to look it up. I think that part is in order now. Waltham, The Duke of 01:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, and something else that I have just remembered: See also sections are only supposed to list items not included in the body of their respective articles. The Jewel Tower is linked in the article (mostly in the beginning), but if I remove it, all that will be left will be Portcullis House and Norman Shaw Building (which share the same line). I am not sure how good a single-lined See also section would look. What do you think? Waltham, The Duke of 10:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd *like* to be able to incorporate both into the main article, particularly Jewel Tower as a summary-style section..Portcullis and Norman Shaw could be mentioned under recent history, which would stop it ending abruptly in the war years. Paulbrock (talk) 23:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm with you there; an ideal article has no See also section. Portcullis House, especially, is quite new and stands just across the street, so it is perfectly legitimate for inclusion in the history section. Besides, its design is influenced by its two neighbouring buildings (N. Shaw Building and the Palace), and its name references the symbol of parliament—I think the inclusion of a mention to the portcullis would be a nice touch for the history.
 * Other notes... Very good work with sourcing and the removal of the remaining unsourced (and relatively unimportant) statements. However, I don't like the change to the part about Spencer Perceval's death. His assassination is already mentioned in the Incidents sub-section of the Security section; repeating the same thing in Other traditions is redundant and, as it now stands, irrelevant to the traditions. Unless the previous statement (about his officially dying at 10 Downing Street) can be verified, I suggest the passage's complete removal. Personally, I'd really like to see that back, but I cannot ask for much since I don't look for sources myself. Waltham, The Duke of 01:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I've looked high and low (online!) but every other page mentioning Perceval's assassination doesn't mention the 'officially died in Downing St' stuff, so (for now at least) I have to rule it as unverifiable. Thanks for all the article feedback,very useful.Paulbrock (talk) 02:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You imbecile! You scared the hell out of me; I spend half an hour searching the history to find out how half the Commons section disappeared! Bloody reference slashes... The tiniest error can create mayhem under the right circumstances. Anyway it's fixed now. Bring me a glass of whiskey to steady my nerves, and we'll be fine. :-D
 * About the assassination, I have tracked down the editor who added the entire "Customs and traditions" section, and asked him about the particular statement. I do not know why I insist so much on this, but just wanted to use all the means in my disposal. In any case, he has found no source, but says that if he finds one he will reinstate the statement.
 * I have done a general read and copy-edit. These are my questions, requests, and notes:
 * Note: I have finally changed USA to United States; apart from my dislike for the acronym in this place, it is unclear to me to what extent USA was in use in the mid-nineteenth century.
 * Note: two of the Factsheets, including the one cited as a source after the passage about Portcullis House, state that it was completed in the autumn of 2000, and not in 2001, so I have changed that. I wonder if you've seen something else in another source. (For the record, the Wikipedia article says it opened in 2001.)
 * Request: Can you find since when the Victoria Tower has housed the Parliamentary Archives? Several days ago, I changed the original "The tower is home to the Parliamentary Archives" to "Today it is the home..."; it was meant to be a text improvement, and the statement is now accurate, but I cannot really know for how long it has been. Perhaps it was from the start.
 * Question: Do you think we should include a "click for the key" note in the caption of the floor plan? There used to be such a note in older versions of the article, and I find it quite useful.
 * Question: Is there a specific reason why the two sides in the Lords are defined as "on the right" and "on the left" of the Lord Chancellor? If not, that should be changed to Lord Speaker. I also wonder about the "Lord Chancellors apartments"; does he still live in the Palace?
 * Request: The first paragraph of the "Westminster Hall" sub-section is completely unreferenced; could at least the claim about the Hall's being the largest in England be sourced?
 * Note: Some of your text changes in the same section have confused me a little, I must admit. Are we to keep "various functions" in past tense but "ceremonial functions" in present tense? I've done a few tweaks but I might have missed something here.
 * Question: Should units and their conversions be consistent in their order? The metric system is normally first in the article, but the length of the corridors has miles first. The source gives "about 3 miles (4.8 km)" as the length of corridors; why does the intro say "well over"?
 * I leave these few things for your consideration. Waltham, The Duke of 23:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, sorry if I have offended you with the beginning of my message; it was intended to be humorous, and it reflected how I felt at the time. Please don't leave... Waltham, The Duke of 00:25, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Still here, don't worry! Small wikibreak due to real life stuff.   OK, it's all looking good,replies to specific points:
 * Portcullis House - yes must have 'borrowed' date from Portcullis House incorrectly.
 * Will have a good luck for Archives stuff - update - according to Parliamentary Archives, "Charles Barry's winning design had as its culminating feature a tower over the Royal entrance in which every storey included 'Record Rooms'", and from the rest of the article, it sounds like it stored the records from its opening, although for a long period under the name "House of Lords Record Office".
 * 'click for key'. I'd say not, it's a little unconventional, and people can't actually see the annotations unless they click on it anyway, which would leave us with 'click for a larger version', which is extraneous anyway.
 * Lord Chancellor - update - wrt left or right, I've amended Chancellor->Speaker. The text was put in pre-2006, and in the absence of any other evidence, should be updated to reflect that the Speaker is now on the woolsack.  This article  suggests the Speaker would have use of part of the Chancellor's apartments, but there is no indication they would be renamed; so I think that text is fine as is. I'm just looking for info/a reference for the daily "formal processions".
 * Westminster Hall - agreed. no point in saying "Accounts record..." if we don't say what they are!
 * tenses - I'd say ceremonial functions should be past tense as well - no coronation banquests for 150 years. Likewise for lying in state - I'm not sure we can say the Hall *is used* for lyings-in-state,because I don't think there's a reason why it should be Westminster Hall that's used, just that it *has been used* for them.
 * Measurements - from WP:UNITS - I'll take a look at applying this to the article - I know there was some inconsistency with corridor lengths so will check it again.
 * For UK-related, the main units are either metric or imperial (consistently within an article).
 * Conversions to and from metric and imperial/US units should generally be provided.
 * In the main text, give the main units as words and use unit symbols or abbreviations for conversions in parentheses; for example, a pipe 100 millimetres (4 in) in diameter and 16 kilometres (10 mi) long or a pipe 4 inches (100 mm) in diameter and 10 miles (16 km) long. The exception is that where there is consensus to do so, the main units may also be abbreviated in the main text after the first occurrence.
 * Category:Conversion templates can be used to convert and format many common units, including, which includes non-breaking spaces.
 * Ranges are preferably formatted with one rather than two unit signifiers (5.9–6.3 kg, not 5.9 kg – 6.3 kg).
 * Paulbrock (talk) 17:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Good to see you back. I hope your real-life pursuits are going well, whatever they are. So...
 * About the caption, I agree that the readers will not see the image's annotations from the article. As a matter of fact, they are not expected to know about the existence of the annotations at all. And this is exactly why I am proposing the inclusion of a click for the key (or similar) caption: readers will be informed of the ability to learn a little bit more about the layout. I shall not insist upon it, but I find it a good idea.
 * About tenses, has been is, I think, the best option, because the Hall is used for lyings-in-state and other ceremonial occasions, and has been for a long time (perhaps always; it has been a castle or mansion's equivalent of a Great Hall, and it sounds plausible that it should be used for formal occasions, especially those which large crowds were expected to attend). After a single tweak in the "addresses" section, I now believe that the section is in perfect grammatical order.
 * The last paragraph of the "Westminster Hall" section might also use a reference; I think a phrase like "This pattern is meant to reflect..." warrants it. I might have read this myself in one of the factsheets, but I'd have to look it up—you are so much better with sources (by the way, you seem to have left a source, No. 11, unnamed).
 * Good work with both the sources and the conversions. We are very near the end, I am happy to say; I cannot see much room for improvement. This used to be a Featured Article, after all, even if its standards had been long surpassed... Waltham, The Duke of 20:27, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Two more notes:
 * Several references are raw URLs; from what I know, these are frowned upon, to put it mildly, and should be made more presentable.
 * I don't like the inconsistency in the spelling of the debating chambers: Lords Chamber and Lords' Chamber are both encountered quite often, as are Commons Chamber and Commons' Chamber. I think we should make a decision on the spelling.
 * PS: I spotted the faulty reference thanks to an error message in the reference list—it was nothing in particular. Waltham, The Duke of 23:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Both the Times and Telegraph use "Commons chamber"  (note lower-case on chamber). Likewise "Lords chamber" by the Guardian ,Telegraph and Times.  Very few instances of apostrophe use.  The official names preferred by Parliament seem to be capitalised "Chamber".  I think we can stick with the official "Chamber", just no apostrophes! Paulbrock (talk) 17:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am fine with that. As the Lord Speaker would say, "The Contents have it". I shall review the article immediately. Waltham, The Duke of 20:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

More sources
I contacted a former editor of this article and they were kind enough to email me further information. I'll work to incorporate into the article; in the meantime if anyone else is interested, the information can be viewed at User:Paulbrock/WestminsterHall. Paulbrock (talk) 00:04, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In my not-so-humble opinion, the section for Westminster Hall is already long enough; actually, it might require some trimming. I feel that the additional information is the perfect excuse to split the Hall into its own little article, and there to expand it at will. What say you? Waltham, The Duke of 23:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, with all these breaks your nomination might be dismissed as drive-by. :-D
 * Well, I don't think there will be any problems with nominating, but what do you think about my idea? There is much information here, and smaller articles have broken off. Waltham, The Duke of 07:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have no strong opinions either way to be honest; I think we'd be fine keeping it here without this article being too long, but there's also enough for at least a stub. Paulbrock (talk) 13:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not think that the article itself is long, but that the relative size of the section in question is becoming too great. I see that pieces of information are still added once in a while, and if we are to use the information in your sub-page, then we shall certainly unbalance the article. Unless you prove to be faster than me, I shall explore ways of creating a good stand-alone article in the place of the current redirect and perhaps move ahead with its creation. With the material we have in our hands, I find it more likely that it should be classified as Start-class rather than a simple stub. Waltham, The Duke of 22:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Change image for the "Commons Chamber" section?
I am not sure about whether to leave the image as is or replace it with Image:House of Commons.jpg. On one hand, a view of the Commons Chamber would be much more relevant and illustrative of the topic discussed in the section. The image in question is fair use and properly indicated as such. On the other hand, I am not sure if we want to fill the article with fair-use images, and the current picture is the only exterior shot not taken from the river. There is another point: the replacement would have all the images in the "Interior" section be from the interior of the Palace; that could be positive (e.g. more relevance) or negative (e.g. less variety), depending on the viewpoint.

Any opinions? Waltham, The Duke of 01:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Illegal to die in the House of Commons
This story was based on an unreliable press release from UK TV which was itself based on an internet survey. The BBC news website first of all published the story in full but then took it down after complaints. It was put back in a very much toned down form. See the foot of this story. A spokesman for the House of Commons said "The people who know about these things here say there is no basis for such a law, not to say it does not exist somewhere in writing." There's nothing other than this distinctly unreliable press release that says the story is true and we shouldn't base what we write on a rumour found on the internet. What the "author of a well known book" (also the man seems to have invented this rumour) says is something quite different, that "Anyone who dies there is technically entitled to a state funeral.". If anyone who dies there really is entitled to a state funeral, surely someone other than the author of "Amorous Antics" and "Curious Cures" would have noticed. This contradicts every reliable source on the matter; the granting of a state funeral is the decision of the Prime Minister. --Lo2u (T • C) 21:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * thank you for providing the link. that's been amended since i last read it ;). next time, please challenge a source on talk first. ninety:one 21:41, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Stephen's Tower

 * See also Talk:Big Ben

I have been using Google Books to try to find a reliable source that says that St. Stephen's Tower is the name for the Central Tower. But every search I do using Google Books ["Stephen's Tower" Westminster], ["Stephen's Tower" Parliament], [Central Tower "Octagon Hall"], [Central Tower Parliament], etc they throw up many many references that state that St. Stephen's Tower is the Clock Tower. I could not find one that says that St. Stephen's Tower is the Central Tower. I did not go thorough all the pages thrown up but I did look at the fist 30 or so on each search.

I know that there are statements like "The Central Tower, which contains the Grand Central Octagon Hall, at the east end of St. Stephen's Hall, will, when completed, present one great lantern", and " ... portions of the Victoria Tower, the Clock Tower, and the Central Tower, which are upon an average 100 feet above the ground, St. Stephen's Porch above the level of about 60 feet from the ground, two bays of the western portion of St. Stephen's Hall, which are within eight feet of their intended height, and the central masses of the building abutting upon the Central Tower, and the towers of the River front, which, together with St. Stephen's Hall, are now being roofed in." and that is why the editor who added it might have assumed that the Central Tower was called St. Stevens Tower, but that is a form of WP:SYN.

So until sources are provided, I have commented out the statement that it is. If someone can come up with a reliable source that contradicts the many other sources. I think it should be discussed further on this talk page before it is re-added. --PBS (talk) 10:40, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've found some reliable sources:
 * Department of the Serjeant at Arms Annual Report 2001-02 Section "St Stephen's Tower": "This project involved the renovation and re-modelling of offices on four floors above St Stephen's Entrance."
 * Minutes of Proceedings The Accommodation and Works Committee Wednesday 8 December 1999 Section "Refurbishment of St. Stephen's Tower"
 * Also St Stephens Tower, Palace of Westminster,Gilmore Hankey Kirke (CHK) the contractors who did the work. --PBS (talk) 12:01, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for correcting this, Mr Shearer; I wonder how I'd missed it. I knew about the Clock Tower misnomer, but had a vague idea that "St Stephen's Tower" was the name of the tower at the west end of St Stephen's Hall, over St Stephen's Entrance. I am glad that you have found evidence to confirm this. (There are so many towers in this building, some of them relatively obscure; I believe the two towers on the east face of the Palace are Speaker's Tower and Chancellor's Tower. It would certainly be a good addition to the article, given that only the three major towers are covered.) Anyway, we can now remove the statement entirely.
 * On another note, seeing the other discussion, I wish to express my protest at the awkward situation created with the move of the Clock Tower article. The lead: "Big Ben is the nickname for the great bell of the clock in the clock tower of the Palace of Westminster. The nickname is often also used to refer to the clock and the tower." And then the article goes on to expend most of its length describing the clock and tower. I am not sure this is a tenable arrangement. Waltham, The Duke of 17:58, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, I've just noticed your changes to the article. I think there is some confusion here; there are no offices (or any other rooms) in the Central Tower—see page 6 of the restoration fact-sheet. It really seems to have no other name. As the first of these sources says, St Stephen's Tower is "above St Stephen's entrance". That is the public entrance at the west end of St Stephen's Hall (and by the porch of the same name).


 * (ten minutes of search later) I've actually managed to find a picture of the tower (apparently—shortly—before restoration), with a title that removes all doubt. I'd seen it before, hence my vague idea, but had to re-discover it. Waltham, The Duke of 19:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The above picture link does not work. But this should. 99.141.12.244 (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I wonder why on Earth I couldn't find a simpler link for that (navigation is a bit strange in that site); this huge thing worked for me yesterday but it doesn't now. Waltham, The Duke of 08:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The picture certainly brings clarification to the muddle, and I am glad that the confusion over St Stephen's Tower is now cleared up. --PBS (talk) 11:30, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Got an e-mail from the House of Commons Information Office

Thank you very much for your enquiry regarding St. Stephen's Tower.

St Stephen's Tower is the tower at the front of Parliament, between Westminster Hall and Old Palace Yard, and contains the main entrance to the House of Commons known as St Stephen's Entrance.

I hope this information helps.

Regards

Chris Blanchett 129.105.104.221 (talk) 01:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

London, England
I imagine this is not an American English aritcle and as such we do not need the pointless 'London, England' placename. We're all quite aware where London is - London, England is not British English usage. Also as this article is about the British Parliament Buildings it should at least be London, United Kingdom! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.202.24 (talk) 22:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Drinking in the Commons
In this article, it states that members are not allowed to eat or drink in the Commons with the Chancellor being the only exception. Today, I was watching the proceedings from the public gallery and saw both Harriet Harman and the Speaker, Michael Martin, drinking from glasses of water. Is the article incorrect? --86.162.212.50 (talk) 16:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I cant be certain but a lot of 'law' in Parliament is convention. Even if it isnt and its seen as out of date its often ignored rather than got rid of.Willski72 (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Where did parliament meet after 1834?
Until the new buildings were ready, that is. This would have been for at least 15 years, maybe longer. ðarkun coll 16:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "While construction was underway the House of Commons temporarily sat in the repaired Lesser Hall and the House of Lords used the Painted Chamber."


 * "The Commons stayed in the Chapel until the Great Fire of 1834 destroyed it. While the Palace was being rebuilt it then temporarily sat in the repaired Lesser Hall until moving into its custom built Chamber in 1852."

(The Lesser Hall was the previous Court of Requests ) Craigy (talk) 00:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I had been wondering about that. I imagine the MPs and Their Lordships must have been driven mad by the noise all those years. I wonder whether it affected the quality of legislation. (evil grin)
 * Parliament seems to have added lots of new and interesting material to its re-designed website. It will function as a superb source, I am sure; I'm only worried about relying on it too heavily in the future. (It's a reliable source and all, but guidelines and common sense demand more than that.) I have to get my hands on those books... Waltham, The Duke of 19:26, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox image
I have just reverted a pair of edits that moved File:Palace of Westminster, London - Feb 2007.jpg down from the infobox and replaced it with File:Westminsterpalatset-2.jpg. I consider the latter image to be unsuitable for the lead section for a number of reasons, most importantly because it is too dark and only shows two-thirds of the article's subject; that the previous caption was left unedited (apart from the addition of credit, which is not appropriate, at least for public-domain images) is rather odd, considering that it mentions a Victoria Tower that is not visible in that photograph. The image that was previously in the infobox, and which I have restored to that place, does not have these problems and, indeed, is considered one of our finest pictures. It displays the Palace of Westminster more effectively in its setting and shows it at its most spectacular, and I find it more suitable for the infobox than most pictures available here. Waltham, The Duke of 06:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

What about the sikh?
> Dress code: Hats must not be worn

If that was true, it would be impossible for an ethnic sikh man to become an MP and the EU would definitely make a big noise about that problem! 87.97.100.84 (talk) 21:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

It feels a little like designing the new dome for the enlarged US Capitol
I have long considered the existing introduction to this article unsatisfactory: it is very short, says nearly nothing about the building's significance or what it looks like, and the third paragraph gives information of secondary—or even tertiary—importance. I have finally found the inspiration to write a new one, and I submit it here for the consideration of my colleagues. I shall edit it into the article in one week if no objections arise until then (or they do but are addressed).

(The note follows in full after the lead proposal for the benefit of the reader, although one may also view it in the edit window. It is the same as the one in the current lead, actually; I have only added to the first paragraph.)

The Palace of Westminster, also known as the Houses of Parliament or Westminster Palace, is the seat of the two houses of the Parliament of the United Kingdom—the House of Lords and the House of Commons. The Palace lies on the north bank of the River Thames in the heart of the London borough of the City of Westminster, close to the historic Westminster Abbey and the government buildings of Whitehall and Downing Street. The name may refer to either of two structures: the Old Palace, a mediaeval building complex most of which was destroyed in 1834, and its replacement New Palace that stands today; it has retained the style and status of a royal residence, despite its actual use.

The first royal palace was built on the site in the eleventh century, and Westminster was the primary London residence of the Kings of England until a fire destroyed most of the complex in 1512. After that, it served as the home of Parliament, which had been meeting there since the thirteenth century, and the seat of the Royal Courts of Justice, based in and around Westminster Hall. In 1834, an even greater fire ravaged the heavily rebuilt Houses of Parliament, and the only buildings of significance to survive were Westminster Hall, the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft, the Cloisters and the Jewel Tower. With the exception of the latter, architect Sir Charles Barry incorporated these into his design for the new Palace: a massive building in the Perpendicular Gothic style but with symmetrical proportions, 265.8 m long and covering an area of 3.24 ha, part of it reclaimed from the Thames. Barry was assisted by Augustus W. N. Pugin, a leading authority on Gothic architecture and style, who provided designs for the decoration and furnishings of the Palace. Construction started in 1840 and was completed thirty years later, much delayed and past the death of both leading architects, while works for the interior decoration continued intermittently well into the twentieth century. Major conservation work has been carried out since, due to the effects of London's pollution, and extensive repairs took place after the Second World War, including the reconstruction of the Commons Chamber following its bombing in 1941.

The Palace is one of the centres of British political life, serving as the stage of the annual State Opening of Parliament and the weekly Prime Minister's Questions, alongside other parliamentary activity; "Westminster" has become a metonym for the UK Parliament, and the Westminster system of government has taken its name after it. Its Clock Tower, in particular, which has become known as "Big Ben" after its main bell, is an iconic landmark of London and the United Kingdom in general, one of the most popular tourist attractions in the city and an emblem of parliamentary democracy. The Palace of Westminster has been a Grade I listed building since 1970 and part of a UNESCO World Heritage Site since 1987.


 * Note

The only thing I'm not sure about here is whether to include Sir in Barry's name, given that he only became a knight in 1952. There are a couple of other things I'd like to add to the third paragraph about the Palace's legacy, but I am not yet in a position to source them, so I'll just leave them for another time. I think the first and second paragraphs are pretty much ready, unless we decide to expand the lead beyond its current total of almost 500 words / 2,500 characters. A slightly larger and more comprehensive article than we have now may very well warrant such treatment. Waltham, The Duke of 16:04, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * No objections recorded. With a sentence's modification, I have proceeded with the change.
 * I am now contemplating the addition of an "Administration and staff" section between "Interior" and "Security"—giving information about the control of the Palace, the officers and bodies in charge of the premises, and the number and status of the various workers there—and a "Ceremonies" sub-section to "Rules and traditions", probably in the first place. Ideas and opinions are welcome. Waltham, The Duke of 02:42, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Removal of "Rules and traditions", beginning with "Forms of address"
After much thought, I have arrived at the conclusion that the "Rules and traditions" section of the article ought to be removed. It does not address the Palace as a whole, but speaks somewhat disparately about some customs of the two Houses (with a heavy bias towards the Commons) which are or ought to be addressed in the appropriate House and/or Chamber articles (the latter do not yet exist but I am planning to create them). For this reason, I have removed the "Forms of address" sub-section, which is already covered in the two Houses' articles, and intend to gradually remove the rest of them as their content is integrated in other articles or elsewhere in this article. The "Ceremonies" sub-section that I have considered adding also seems unnecessary, as the State Opening of Parliament is covered in the progression of rooms in the section "Interior", and the other ceremonies are or will be covered in the appropriate room sub-sections. Waltham, The Duke of 19:46, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I cannot but agree with His Grace. Tony   (talk)  00:27, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Removal of infobox
I was surprised to see the recent addition of an infobox to this article, considering the rather convoluted circumstances surrounding the construction of the Palace of Westminster. The unfortunate result is a table containing information selected and presented in such a manner as to be largely misleading:


 * 1) Neoclassical and Gothic Revival are given equal billing as the style of the Palace. Although some features of the Palace's layout are classical, this seems like an exaggeration.
 * 2) The timeline is way too simplistic. The Old and New Palace are essentially different buildings, and yet the almost total reconstruction of the mid-19th century is given as a "renovation". What exactly is a renovation? Do the two stonework restorations count? In any case, the Old Palace evolved organically over most of its life, and the New Palace also changed a lot in its internal arrangements over the years. I realise that the template can't do any better, but this is exactly why I believe it is unsuitable for use here.
 * 3) The Palace's covering an area of 8 acres is not equal to its having a floor area of 8 acres. For one thing, it has multiple storeys; for another, the number probably includes the courtyards and river terrace.
 * 4) It may seem obvious that the UK Parliament was the client, but the situation was not so straightforward. Apart from the fact that the two Houses often acted separately, the Treasury and the First Commissioner of Works had much of a say in what works were allowed, and the Commissioners of Woods also played a part. It is this confusion in oversight of the work which shaped, to an extent, the building that we know.
 * 5) The matter of whether Augustus Pugin can be considered an architect of the Palace has been much debated, and we cannot simply dismiss it in the infobox. The inclusion of Scott next to Barry seems disproportionate.

In short, the infobox will have us ram square pegs into round holes or, at the very least, octagonal ones. I have therefore decided to remove the infobox and revert to the previous state of the article, where there existed only the UNESCO World Heritage Site infobox. It is not any personal preference for this box that has motivated me to retain it—in fact, I have spent much time thinking whether it is worth keeping, and whether the article might not be better off without any infoboxes at all (like the FA Tower of London). However, the building in question is part of a joint Site which includes another two buildings, each with its own article, and I consider it appropriate and useful for the readers to keep the WHS infoboxes in all three articles. In any case, this infobox is small and includes no information that offers itself for misinterpretation.

If you disagree with my action, please discuss it here rather than revert me. There is no rush, after all, and the infobox can always be restored if we agree that this is the best course of action for the article. Waltham, The Duke of 16:34, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

written speeches
Although the article says that they're not allowed, they have unfortunately become widespread. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.189.103.145 (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Westminster Hall debates
I do not think it is quite right to state that "controversial matters are not usually discussed" in Westminster Hall. Although adjournment debates are often narrow in focus, and thus are often sparsely attended, that is not quite the same as being uncontroversial. It is certainly true that the debates tend to be conducted in a more civilised manner than is sometimes the case in the main chamber, but, again, that is not necessarily a reflection on the relative controversy of the subject.

Words such as "controversial" are loaded and subjective, and they can often give the wrong impression. I suspect that MPs don't request adjournment debates because they want to pass the time of day. In the last couple of weeks there have been debates on badger culls, dangerous dogs, defence procurement, the future of S4C, arms export controls, the future of BBC local radio and sex education in primary schools. To suggest any of those subjects are "uncontroversial" is something of a stretch. Perhaps an alternative wording might be in order. 81.178.197.158 (talk) 19:37, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Robing room frescos
"Seven were originally commissioned but the remaining two paintings were not carried out due to the artist's death" - I went on the tour this weekend, and the guide told us that another artist painted the last fresco, and that for whatever reason the final two weren't painted. If true, the article would seem to present a simplified (and incorrect) version of events. Parrot of Doom 10:27, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Pleased to meet you, Parrot of Doom; as an occasional stalker of Malleus's talk page and a casual reader of FAC pages picked from the Signpost, I have heard much about you. Regarding the Robing Room, the truth lies between the guide and the article. Cooke says that Dyce finished the first four frescoes by 1854 and left "Hospitality" (the large one) unfinished at his death in 1864, to be completed by C. W. Cope within the next two years. There were all sorts of reasons for the delays, including the "great quantity of chain mail" to be painstakingly painted... Although that one may have been a bit of an excuse; I think I've read somewhere that Dyce started to tire of his task towards the end. Waltham, The Duke of 13:56, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Interiors by John Gregory Crace (designer)
It seems that quite a few of the interiors were designed and painted by J.G. Crace, which deserves a mention. For example the ceiling of the Chapel of St. Mary Undercroft was decorated and gilded by Crace. The article ought, I think, to describe the nature of the collaboration between Pugin and Crace. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:30, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


 * You are right. Hardman is also not mentioned, and neither are a great many other things of significance; this article is bloated and at the same time incomplete, two qualities which combine to form a picture of great unevenness. Until someone undertakes the great task of re-casting this patchwork into a well-organised set of appropriately sized articles, all we can do is continue to add information to it and contribute to its volume. (I've hoped that that someone would be me, but I am guilty of procrastination—I've been studying this building for years, but have little to show for it so far.) Waltham, The Duke of 15:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't blame yourself - it's a tricky matter getting balance right on a major article on such a complex topic. The article is already of great interest and is certainly widely used as a reference. But a brief note on the interiors would be very welcome. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, there are several things to be done, and the first is to move the Old Palace material out of this article, or it won't be able to breathe. I've always been more interested in the New Palace, so I meant to create no more than a small article for the Old Palace, just to clear space and provide focus here. I'm too much of a perfectionist for that, however, and I've ended up building what could well go straight from DYK to GA—provided that I finish it, of course. After a long, involuntary summer break I am actually making some progress on it now (on my computer), and I want to take advantage of this momentum, so I don't think I'll want to work here until I finish there. But if you insert that note on the interiors, and it's crude enough to insult my sensibilities, I may be tempted to improve it. :-) Waltham, The Duke of 18:58, 6 October 2012 (UTC)


 * All right then, I've popped in a really rough note on the interiors! ;-} Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:06, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

The rifle range
This article says the rifle range is closed. However, this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/shortcuts/2013/jan/28/parliament-rifle-range

from 2013 claims it is fully operational.

Which is it? 116.55.65.30 (talk) 05:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Open to the public
I didn't see it anywhere in the article and I'm curious when was it that the Houses of Parliament became open to the public for tours and visits because I thought it was only opened a few years ago.Mugsalot (talk) 14:30, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

750th anniversary of Parliament
Parliament is celebrating its 750th anniversary on 20th January 2015 and the BBC are planning a "Democracy Day" of live events, discussions and debate, in partnership with the Speaker’s Office of the House of Commons, including broadcasts from inside Westminster. Correspondingly, I'll mention De Montfort's Parliament which was also held at Westminster, per the same source for the Model Parliament. Whizz40 (talk) 18:58, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Print of Houses of Parliament before 1834 Fire
I have just uploaded this image, and would like to put it somewhere in this article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:11, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and inserted this into the article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:35, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Rules and Traditions - Dress Code
I note it says "Members may not wear military decorations and insignia". Did not MPs who were in armed services appear in sessions in uniform during World War II and are not decorations worn at the state opening, considering some parliamentary officials are ex-service officers? This needs clarification as to the rigidity of the alleged code and which part of the Houses this applies to.Cloptonson (talk) 20:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Foreign Statesmen who have addressed Parliament
As one who remembers in our news during the 1980s that then US President Ronald Reagan was to give an address to both Houses of Parliament when he made a state visit as guest of Margaret Thatcher, I wonder if it went ahead as I do not see him listed among those foreign statesmen who have addressed Parliament since World War II.Cloptonson (talk) 20:21, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The article is probably mentioning too many already and, in any case, Reagan made his speech in the Royal Gallery, not Westminster Hall; see List of people who have spoken to both Houses of the United Kingdom Parliament. Waltham, The Duke of 06:15, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Suggested improvement - speaking/listening devices
Having been aroused by the mistaken report that Alec Shelbrooke was allegedly asleep during a debate but transpired to be listening to the speaker device next to his seat on the Commons Benches, it would be helpfully useful to mention the audio facilities in the chambers. This is not the first time that MPs (and Peers) have been mistaken by tv viewers for sleeping on duty!Cloptonson (talk) 05:35, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

built 2017??
when was the palace built? in the infobox it says 2017Joobo (talk) 11:56, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Palace of Westminster/images listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Palace of Westminster/images. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. B dash (talk) 08:31, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

split proposal : new article History of the Palace of Westminster
Would people support creating a separate "History of the Palace of Westminster" article? I'll create one if so, as I think there is more than enough content for it and this article is getting a bit long. Bellowhead678 (talk) 12:07, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Secret door
 * Although I not sure whether I support the suggestion to creat a new article or not, I agree there is a need to separate some of this article into at least a new paragraph History.
 * As Captainllama says, there is already a section named "History". I would suggest moving that whole section to a new article and leaving a trimmed down version, such as I've created here. Bellowhead678 (talk) 17:22, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Secret door content
In addition, I submit that information about the the recently discovered "Secret door" is wrongly placed in 'Culture and Tourism' and would find a more suitable place in any such new history article or paragraph --- jw (talk) 19:35, 28 February 2020 (UTC)


 * comment I'm agnostic as to splitting into a new article and just wanted to agree with jw that the "secret door" was misplaced. I have moved it into the (already existing) "History" section. Cheers! Captainllama (talk) 02:06, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with the move to the history section. Bellowhead678 (talk) 17:22, 29 February 2020 (UTC)