Talk:Palantír

Requested move 9 October 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

Palantír → Palantir – This was inspired by a comment at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Middle-earth, pointing out that this page title is in Sindarin, and since both spellings seem to be used, even occassionally in the books, it seems to make sense that this should be at the more recognizable English title, without the diacritic. Hog Farm Bacon 15:48, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:20, 10 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I prefer how it looks with the thingy, it adds for me.Halbared (talk) 08:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The accent is most common. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:08, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
 * FYI someone mentioned this topic in Discord and I was surprised that this was considered the primary topic for Palantir, so opened the below RfD. Sorry to throw a wrench into this RM in doing so. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 15:08, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
 * A couple people have argued that this should play out first, so I guess for the record Oppose - it's not the primary topic. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 00:13, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Not primary topic Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 14:46, 22 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Palantir" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Palantir. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 21 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 15:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect pronunciation transcription
Tolkien's Elvish language(s) transcribed into "Common" or otherwise followed the grammatical rules of Classical Latin concerning "syllable weight." Therefore, the proper pronunciation transcription of "palantír" would be /paˈlanˌtiːɹ/ Bladesinger46n2 (talk) 00:09, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Thankyou. That sounds very plausible but we'd need a reliable source so that other editors can verify the pronunciation. Chiswick Chap (talk) 04:20, 29 July 2021 (UTC)


 * See the first paragraph of the subsection Stress in Section I (Pronunciation of Words and Names) in Appendix E of LoTR, which I quote in full (2nd edition), since it may be of use elsewhere:
 * "The position of the 'accent' or stress is not marked, since in the Eldarin languages concerned its place is determined by the form of the word. In words of two syllables it falls in practically all cases on the first syllable. In longer words it falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants. [emphasis added]. Where the last syllable but one contains (as often) a short vowel followed by only one (or no) consonant, the stress falls on the syllable before it, the third from the end. Words of the last form are favoured in the Eldarin languages, especially Quenya."
 * Paul Magnussen (talk) 18:46, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

remove speculation
Why do we care what Paul Kocher, Joseph Pearce, Tom Shippey or anyone else thinks about this? Speculation by anyone not named J.R.R. Tolkien shouldn't be part of this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.23.235.4 (talk) 17:41, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Ironic use of 'speculation' when that's what the palantir supports. To answer the question, these are major Tolkien scholars, the most reliable secondary sources. Without them, the topic would not be seen to be notable, i.e. they are essential for the article. Tolkien is the primary source, meaning that he can be used for facts but does not establish notability. Chiswick Chap (talk) 05:59, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Can a palantír show the future?
The opening paragraph claims that the palantíri could be used to see "whether past or future." But I'm not able to find any source for that. Could anyone confirm if this actually come from Tolkien, please? Thanks! RR (talk) 05:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The Silmarillion says only that "those who looked therein might perceive in them things far off, whether in place or in time." ("Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"). This is ambiguous about whether the future might be included. Unfinished Tales says "scenes or figures in distant places, or in the past." ("The Palantíri") which seems to exclude the future. This differs from the Mirror of Galadriel where it is explicitly stated that future things may be glimpsed, though they may not come to be. Perhaps there was a confusion between the two. I'll edit the text now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:43, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "whether past or future" is still there in the opening paragraph. Should I fix it by myself, or can someone more expert of the topic fix it? Meridiana solare (talk) 22:21, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Chiswick Chap (talk) 02:54, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Indestructible??
"A palantír (/pæˈlænˌtɪər/; in-universe pl. palantíri) is one of several indestructible crystal balls from J. R. R. Tolkien's epic-fantasy novel The Lord of the Rings."

"By the time of The Lord of the Rings at the end of the Third Age, a few palantíri remained in existence."

I thought the first quote says they're "indestructible". LOL Cloudswrest (talk) 16:26, 6 February 2023 (UTC)


 * One word: "lost". A stone could be buried in a catastrophe or lost at sea. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Interesting to know, by the way, that it has a standard English pronunciation. —Tamfang (talk) 05:53, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

English vs in-universe spellings
It's fine and appropriate that we list the in-universe plural at the top of the article, but it's not fine that we use it. The plural form in English ends in -s, and for English Wikipedia that's what we should use. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:28, 25 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Should we move Dúnedain to Dúnadans, and Gracchi to Gracchuses?
 * Is the plural in s attested anywhere in the canon? If not, it's arguably OR. And extending the anglicism to the German interwiki link was unfortunate. —Tamfang (talk) 19:55, 15 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Evidence the canon plural is always "palantíri": compare palantíri with palantírs.
 * Saying "The plural form in English ends in -s" is, most charitably, a vast oversimplification. MOS:PLURALS itself refers to English plurals which has "Foreign terms may take native plural forms, especially when the user is addressing an audience familiar with the language. In such cases, the conventionally formed English plural may sound awkward or be confusing.  Nouns of Slavic origin add -a or -i according to native rules, or just -s".
 * Rohan, Middle-earth is full of uses of "Rohirrim".
 * Many more non-canon English works on the fictional universe use "palantíri" (59) than "palantírs" (9).
 * For me, Google has 14,100 results for "palantírs" and 42,600 for "palantíri"
 * So I'd vote for the restoration of the in-canon plural form here. Jaa101 (talk) 02:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
 * So far, two to one against. —Tamfang (talk) 03:16, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Filicide
I see I meant filicide, though I did not notice that it was a Shippley list, as opposed to a general one, so I can't quibble on the first two bones of contention, but it does matter, as the result of the deception would have rid Gondor of Faramir as well, ending the line of the Stewards in Gondor.Halbared (talk) 19:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, and you're forgiven for not noticing the attribution, but we editors obviously can't construct an argument ourselves for such a table. If I come across a source that goes over this ground (presumably it'd be someone bravely picking an academic bone with Tom Shippey...) then I'll consider adding to the table. There is an argument against doing even that, which is that the table expresses exactly one scholarly opinion. Tables that just organize data can reasonably assemble materials, but in the case of a logical argument, any construction is dangerous. Safer would be an annotation ("Note 3: Scholar X adds that ...[23]"), perhaps. My tuppence 'orth. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:09, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The Crystal Egg
Has anyone (other than me) suggested that Tolkien might have been inspired by H. G. Wells's 1897 short story "The Crystal Egg"? Narky Blert (talk) 19:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
 * No. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:34, 11 April 2024 (UTC)