Talk:Palato-alveolar consonant

palato-alveolar vs alveolo-palatal
The terminology follows the following pattern: palato-alveolar (such as [ʃ ʒ]) because it's weakly palatalized, unlike alveolo-palatal (such as [ɕ ʑ]) which is strongly palatalized) --Backinstadiums (talk) 17:31, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Definition
For a long time I thought "palato-alveolar" was synonymous with laminal postalveolar, so I was surprised to find this article described it as "nearly always sibilant" and said it can be either apical or laminal. So I did a quick survey (all original emphasis):

Synonymous with laminal postalveolar
 * Ladefoged & Maddieson (1996:28): Laminal sounds made with the upper side of the tongue in the post-alveolar region are usually called palato-alveolar.
 * Ladefoged & Johnson (2015:178): the term retroflex is exactly equivalent to apical post-alveolar, and palato-alveolar is equivalent to laminal post-alveolar
 * Abercrombie (1967:69): . The junction of teeth-ridge and hard palate is passive articulator, and the blade of the tongue is active articulator
 * Collins & Mees (2013:42, 303): For /ʃ/, as in ship, a large portion of the tongue rises to articulate with the alveolar ridge and the front of the hard palate. Such articulations are termed palato-alveolar ... many linguists nowadays use the term post-alveolar instead of palato-alveolar. [...] palato-alveolar: A place of articulation involving the blade/front of the tongue and the rear of the alveolar ridge/front of the hard palate, e.g. /ʃ/ as in shiver and /dʒ/ in jeans.
 * Ball & Rahilly (1999:55–6): If the place of articulation is right at the back edge of the alveolar ridge, just before its boundary with the arch of the hard palate, we term the sounds post-alveolar. Fricatives made here, with the blade of the tongue (and so, are 'lamino-post-alveolar'), have their own symbols, [ʃ, ʒ] ... Until recently these sounds were termed 'palato-alveolars' and this usage may still be encountered.
 * Davenport & Hannahs (2013:13): Active articulator: tongue blade
 * Crystal (2008:348): palato-alveolar ... refers to a sound made by a double movement of the tongue towards the area between the alveolar ridge and hard palate: the blade of the tongue (or the tip and blade together) makes contact with the alveolar ridge, while the front of the tongue is raised in the direction of the hard palate. Examples in English are the sh- [ʃ] of ship and the -s- [ʒ] of treasure.
 * Bussmann, Trauth & Kazzazi (1996:626): Lamino-post-alveolars are called palatoalveolars in the IPA (written before the Kiel Convention)

Synonymous with postalveolar, be it laminal or apical
 * Catford (2001:92): in the older terminology of the IPA apico- or lamino-postatlveolar fricatives of the type [ʃ] and [ʒ] are called 'palato-alveolar' – Note he uses ⟨ʃ, ʒ⟩ for apicals as well, which AFAIK no other author does.

A passive place of articulation distinct from postalveolar, alveolo-palatal, and pre-palatal
 * Laver (1994:136) – Between alveolar and palatal, it goes: post-alveolar, palato-alveolar, alveolo-palatal, and pre-palatal.

Ambiguous
 * Esling (2010:693): The previous appellation for [ʃ ʒ], in rather clumsy place-of-articulation terms, was Palatoalveolar. The terminology evolved to Postalveolar, ostensibly to highlight the continuity of tongue-tip retraction and to avoid a conflict with the patently tongue-tip-down category of Alveolo-palatal. – Defines the symbols ⟨ʃ, ʒ⟩ as postalveolar sibilants with lower pitch/less grooving than, but doesn't define the term "palatoalveolar" in any specific way.
 * Say palato-alveolar may also be termed postalveolar, but don't necessarily say they're completely equivalent
 * Trask (1996:255): palato-alveolar ... also postalveolar ... Note that this term is anomalously formed, and that the IPA now recommends the term 'postalveolar'.
 * Rogers (2000:199): Some authors refer to this point of articulation as palato-alveolar, alveolo-palatal, or alveopalatal. I recommend following the IPA usage, distinguishing postalveolar and alveolo-palatal, and not using palato-alveolar or alveopalatal as technical terms.

Not one source mentioned domed tongue shape in the definition of the term "palato(-)alveolar". Also, the term "palatoalveolar" still appears on the current IPA chart, namely in the description of ⟨ǂ⟩. The classification of places of articulation of clicks is a whole other can of worms, but I bet isn't domed. The article as it stands is clearly inaccurate, and I'm feeling we might as well merge it with (redirect it to) Postalveolar consonant.

Tangentially, I learned from some of these sources that the term "alveo(-)palatal" (NOT "alveo lo palatal") is traditionally synonymous with palato-alveolar rather than alveolo-palatal (or a term indifferent to this distinction, much like "postalveolar"). I don't know whether this means we need to reconsider the targets of Alveopalatal etc., but either way this means great caution must be taken whenever dealing with a source that uses this term. Nardog (talk) 18:12, 8 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Considering Reference desk/Archives/Language/2023 October 3, I think this confusing article should be immediately rewritten. Can we just remove all apicals from this article for good? 146.96.29.61 (talk) 00:25, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be better if we move this article to domed postalveolar consonants, and redirect palatoalveolar to an disambiguation page named alveo(-)palatal？ 146.96.29.61 (talk) 00:27, 13 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Nah we might as well redirect it to Postalveolar consonant and briefly mention the definition(s) of "palato-alveolar" there. Nardog (talk) 00:54, 13 October 2023 (UTC)